Are Egwene and Nyn truly changed by the silver arches?

[Scarloc99]

So I have been rereading the books and, for obvious reasons, find myself picking apart each scene in terms of its overall narrative importance for the tv show, and there is one that initially I thought was really key, but, re reading further I now find myself wondering. 
 

The scenes where Nyn and Egwene step into the silver arches are told really well. The scenes are emotive and you feel what the characters are going through in the moment. But, I am struggling to see how they really have any impact beyond the immediate aftermath. Neither character is drastically changed long term by the events. Egwenes visions all revolve around her love of Rand and yet, within a short amount of time in the books she has realised she was either never in love or has fallen out of love. That is not shaped by the events in the arches. Her visions do give us foreshadowing and a bit of world building in the moment, but again not anything that truly affects the story long term, 

 

Nyns visit seems to have even less impact, it reveals she loves Lan, something she knew and then still refuses to truly acknowledge for a time after. It shows her the 2 rivers, but beyond recollections when she is in the world of dreams she doesn’t really change any of her thoughts or behavior. I thought that her channeling in the arches might pay off but it never does. 
 

I am not saying the scenes are pointless, but, given they are meant to be a real moment of change for aes sedai the impact of them on the 2 characters seems significantly underwhelming compared to anything else that happens to them in the books. 
 

So am I mis remembering or Mis understanding, is there some moment later on in the books where you can draw a direct line between a decision made and the experience in the arches? Or do they just leave far more questions then answers that never get paid off? 
 

This question is not about of the scene should be in the tv show or not. It is specifically about the books and if we feel it has a long term story impact. I may post in the TV forum about these potential

scenes based on other people’s opinion. 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

Whatever the arches were originally made for (and it is not thought it was originally for the test) their purpose is not to be a moment of change but instead to show prospective Aes'Sedai something of the alternative life choices they are turning away from if they pursue the calling of an Aes'Sedai - those who do not have the focused commitment will either fail to emerge from the arch as they accept the vision or will chose not to finish the test or to continue to later test as Aes'Sedai.  There is no suggesting that the test is to alter the mind of the one tested, only to make them question their motives for training in the tower.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

6 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

So I have been rereading the books and, for obvious reasons, find myself picking apart each scene in terms of its overall narrative importance for the tv show, and there is one that initially I thought was really key, but, re reading further I now find myself wondering. 
 

The scenes where Nyn and Egwene step into the silver arches are told really well. The scenes are emotive and you feel what the characters are going through in the moment. But, I am struggling to see how they really have any impact beyond the immediate aftermath. Neither character is drastically changed long term by the events. Egwenes visions all revolve around her love of Rand and yet, within a short amount of time in the books she has realised she was either never in love or has fallen out of love. That is not shaped by the events in the arches. Her visions do give us foreshadowing and a bit of world building in the moment, but again not anything that truly affects the story long term, 

 

Nyns visit seems to have even less impact, it reveals she loves Lan, something she knew and then still refuses to truly acknowledge for a time after. It shows her the 2 rivers, but beyond recollections when she is in the world of dreams she doesn’t really change any of her thoughts or behavior. I thought that her channeling in the arches might pay off but it never does. 
 

I am not saying the scenes are pointless, but, given they are meant to be a real moment of change for aes sedai the impact of them on the 2 characters seems significantly underwhelming compared to anything else that happens to them in the books. 
 

So am I mis remembering or Mis understanding, is there some moment later on in the books where you can draw a direct line between a decision made and the experience in the arches? Or do they just leave far more questions then answers that never get paid off? 
 

This question is not about of the scene should be in the tv show or not. It is specifically about the books and if we feel it has a long term story impact. I may post in the TV forum about these potential

scenes based on other people’s opinion. 

Yeah, I was so intrigued by the terangreal rings here and also in rhuidean. I wanted some sort of meaningful mind blowing explanation. 

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Whatever the arches were originally made for (and it is not thought it was originally for the test) their purpose is not to be a moment of change but instead to show prospective Aes'Sedai something of the alternative life choices they are turning away from if they pursue the calling of an Aes'Sedai - those who do not have the focused commitment will either fail to emerge from the arch as they accept the vision or will chose not to finish the test or to continue to later test as Aes'Sedai.  There is no suggesting that the test is to alter the mind of the one tested, only to make them question their motives for training in the tower.

But from a story perspective every experience a character undergoes should shape them in some way, pay off in the future in terms of a decision made or a change in approach or thinking. We as individuals are shaped by every experience and going through an experience such as that at a young age should really be the most transformative experience for a person. 
 

Nyn and Egwene witnessed some of the worst things that could happen, they leave, they have a night of tears, and then behave as if nothing happened. It brings them closer for that one night after Egwene’s test but very quickly that is even forgotten. From a character driven story telling standpoint the rings add nothing and we would lose nothing if they were removed. Now you can argue that from a world building standpoint they do explore the world more but my point is that, probably more then any other major scene involving the main characters in any of the books, these pages do nothing to drive character development. 
 

Compare this to Avi and Morraines experiences later on and you see those visions (while we never see them) truly pay off as n the story in a major way. 
 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[DojoToad]

I would argue that they are both changed.

 

Egwene was going to marry Rand.  Her exposure to the bigger world would have changed that eventually, but her experience at the arches  let her know that she wanted something or someone different than a domestic situation with Rand.  It accelerated where she would have ended up after leaving the Two Rivers.

 

Nynaeve would have been content to be the Wisdom of a small backwater had she not chased down Moiraine and company.  The experiences in the arches showed her an expanded world including more responsibility and a partnership.  Why settle?

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

I would argue that they are both changed.

 

Egwene was going to marry Rand.  Her exposure to the bigger world would have changed that eventually, but her experience at the arches  let her know that she wanted something or someone different than a domestic situation with Rand.  It accelerated where she would have ended up after leaving the Two Rivers.

 

Nynaeve would have been content to be the Wisdom of a small backwater had she not chased down Moiraine and company.  The experiences in the arches showed her an expanded world including more responsibility and a partnership.  Why settle?

Did the arches make these changes happen? Nyn had already made the decision to be Aes Sedai to keep Rand and the rest of the children safe. She had already accepted she loved Lan, and had been upset by his rejection (in her mind). the arches didn’t give her anything new other than torment her. But she doesn’t come out a changed person. If she hadn’t gone through she would have continued on the exact same journey making all the same decisions. 
 

Likewise Egwene, has already accepted she doesn’t live Rand like that and can’t marry him. She makes the switch the moment she understands he can channel. All her inner monologue is about keeping him safe and the world safe from him. Hence she easily allows elayne to take her place. Again that decision is not driven by her experience in the arches and later on she does not use her experience of sacrificing Rand, or fighting the black ajah except, I believe, to ask about a circle of 13? For her finding out she can be aes sedai is what drives her to leave her small world behind. She never had any doubt before the arches (if she had she would not have made it though). 
 

I get that is the purpose of the test, but, that is all it is presented as by RJ, a test with no lesson to learn in fact they are told to never speak of what is seen again and if possible try to forget it. Which seemingly they do. 
 

It just feels very much like a massive missed opportunity to me, and something that, as I say leaves massive gaping questions that never get resolved and almost just get forgotten.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Did the arches make these changes happen? Nyn had already made the decision to be Aes Sedai to keep Rand and the rest of the children safe. She had already accepted she loved Lan, and had been upset by his rejection (in her mind). the arches didn’t give her anything new other than torment her. But she doesn’t come out a changed person. If she hadn’t gone through she would have continued on the exact same journey making all the same decisions. 
 

Likewise Egwene, has already accepted she doesn’t live Rand like that and can’t marry him. She makes the switch the moment she understands he can channel. All her inner monologue is about keeping him safe and the world safe from him. Hence she easily allows elayne to take her place. Again that decision is not driven by her experience in the arches and later on she does not use her experience of sacrificing Rand, or fighting the black ajah except, I believe, to ask about a circle of 13? For her finding out she can be aes sedai is what drives her to leave her small world behind. She never had any doubt before the arches (if she had she would not have made it though). 
 

I get that is the purpose of the test, but, that is all it is presented as by RJ, a test with no lesson to learn in fact they are told to never speak of what is seen again and if possible try to forget it. Which seemingly they do. 
 

It just feels very much like a massive missed opportunity to me, and something that, as I say leaves massive gaping questions that never get resolved and almost just get forgotten.

Even if the decisions for both had already been made, the arches were validation and accelerated their arcs.  "I thought I didn't love Rand, but now I know."  Everyone likes outside validation for what they already think or suspect.

[ForsakenPotato]

I don't think the scenes are important to the Last Battle, they are just meant to illustrate that both Nyneave and Egwene are willing to sacrifice potential relationships to be part of the Aes Sedai, and that they have the willpower to make tough choices.

 

It's a false choice they make anyway (esp. for Nyneave), and it doesn't show the future or the past, so I agree with you that they aren't "changed" and it doesn't introduce real change in the plot either...but if we're talking about cutting stuff that doesn't ultimately matter I can suggest few thousand additional pages!

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 2/25/2023 at 5:39 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

So I have been rereading the books and, for obvious reasons, find myself picking apart each scene in terms of its overall narrative importance for the tv show, and there is one that initially I thought was really key, but, re reading further I now find myself wondering. 
 

The scenes where Nyn and Egwene step into the silver arches are told really well. The scenes are emotive and you feel what the characters are going through in the moment. But, I am struggling to see how they really have any impact beyond the immediate aftermath. Neither character is drastically changed long term by the events. Egwenes visions all revolve around her love of Rand and yet, within a short amount of time in the books she has realised she was either never in love or has fallen out of love. That is not shaped by the events in the arches. Her visions do give us foreshadowing and a bit of world building in the moment, but again not anything that truly affects the story long term, 

 

Nyns visit seems to have even less impact, it reveals she loves Lan, something she knew and then still refuses to truly acknowledge for a time after. It shows her the 2 rivers, but beyond recollections when she is in the world of dreams she doesn’t really change any of her thoughts or behavior. I thought that her channeling in the arches might pay off but it never does. 
 

I am not saying the scenes are pointless, but, given they are meant to be a real moment of change for aes sedai the impact of them on the 2 characters seems significantly underwhelming compared to anything else that happens to them in the books. 
 

So am I mis remembering or Mis understanding, is there some moment later on in the books where you can draw a direct line between a decision made and the experience in the arches? Or do they just leave far more questions then answers that never get paid off? 
 

This question is not about of the scene should be in the tv show or not. It is specifically about the books and if we feel it has a long term story impact. I may post in the TV forum about these potential

scenes based on other people’s opinion. 

I was just reading through this thread again, I’m rereading too and at a similar point in my reread. I just wanted to add one more thought that occurred to me in regards to your observation that the rings don’t seem to have any significant effect on the characters. I agree that long term they don’t seem to be a factor, they never even really reflect on it. The thing that came to my mind this time is that it clearly affects them in many ways when they’re inside. It comes across to me as though the experience as it’s happening in real time is agonizing and overwhelming and takes a strong sense of will to maintain control of their senses, to keep it together no matter what they are facing, to make the painful decision to walk away from people and situations no matter what they are to become aes sedai. It doesn’t necessarily mean anything later on, but in the moment it’s a critical crossroads and the experience is affecting them heavily. Maybe it’s not meant to inform future events at all, but to reinforce or test the person’s dedication to choosing aes sedai over all else. Even if that’s all it is, I agree would be an underwhelming explanation.  

[Samt]

From a literary standpoint, a scene doesn't have to be the thing that causes a character change.  It might be the case that it just reveals it to the reader.  The arches allow us an opportunity to see more of who Nynaeve and Egwene are.  I don't think the arches change them, but they do show us how they have changed.  I think that is fine.