Rand al'Thor - Adam theory

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Unlike other tinfoil theories I have had, this one is not mine, but of my friend, who loves connecting religion and myth to Wheel of Time in more direct ways: example, they also had a theory Perrin and Mat are literal incarnations of Thor and Loki. I had asked them if I could share their theory of Rand (or, more correctly, Dragon) = Adam (with my added flavors to them) and they agreed.

The theory basically goes like this: taking the standard Abrahamic story of humans, angelic fall and similar, Adam and Eve where first humans or at leaders of early humanity. Creator is more active and Shai'tan, obviously, is the angel who rebelled (so...a bit nerfed and inconsistent power level, but okay) and tricked humanity. In order to punish humanity, Creator (God), aside from well-known means, also made the time cyclical, so that Creation would exist in this state forever (up to a certain point, but that's out of the discussion now). 

Adam, being the most responsible for the Fall, is thus condemnded to be always reborn throughout the ages: since he is responsible for evil, he is going to fight that same evil throughout the cycle for all eternity, in order to redeem himself. He is reborn as Lews Therin, as Rand al'Thor and other reincarnations of the Dragons, doomed to always face Shai'tan once again, while never meeting his Creator.

Honestly, this to me seems like a compelling theory. No evidence for it and, unlike other parallels, (Christ and King Arthur most obvious ones) parallels between Adam and Rand are...almost non-existent. However, when you think about it, I think it makes sense in this context.

Of course, this leaves a lot of questions: why didn't Rand remember this? Why didn't Shai'tan call him "Adam." during their confrontation? Where is Eve? How would other events from Abrahamic faith fit into this? 

That is why this is tinfoil, of course, and there isn't much evidence for it. However, what do you think about it overall? As an idea at least? Might there be some parallels between Adam and Rand that I have maybe not noticed?

Thanks in advance.

[Scarloc99]

I have come back and forth on this and it has made me think, as an atheist I would not have even considered RJ was religious, certainly not a Christian who took communion several times a week unless I had learnt it independently, and so your question makes me ask a wider question. What indication that RJs world is in any way impacted by his religion and beliefs. 
 

The answer and this feeds into the question is it isn’t, and that allows me to pick apart some of the holes in this theory. 
 

If Rand was Adam then that suggests the creator is the god of the Bible, that then suggests that Jesus Christ existed and died and was resurrected, and most fundamental that there is a heaven (hell and purgatory are open to interpretation so do not have to exist in a Christian gods world). 
 

However we have clear proof that this is not the case, the wheel of time is not the Christian heaven, souls go in and come out and while they are in, with the exception of those bound to the horn, they have no sense of there own existence. God is not worshipped, there is no organized religion, no gathering to say prayer, no teaching of the commandments or the psalms. There is no word of god taught, in fact the only being that is worshipped is the dark lord. Depending on which versions of Christianity you follow some would say the entire of Randland has broken faith with god.

 

This therefore cannot be the Christian creator of the old or New Testament, or, if it is, he has fundamentally failed. For that matter this can’t be any creator as defined in modern or ancient religions. 
 

Consider that, at some point, probably towards the end of the first age heading into the age of legends, the world became either atheist, or more likely in RJs world realises that every world religion was wrong and the creator was none of those things. if that is the case then Adam never existed in terms of biblical Adam because the Bible was proven in the AOL to be wrong. Otherwise amongst Thoms stories would be religious stories alongside tales of the moon landing and the Cold War. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Sir_Charrid

 

 

Though obviously that theory itself doesn't work unless you seriously tweak some things in cosmology of Wheel of Time I find this statement from you:

 

 

14 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

What indication that RJs world is in any way impacted by his religion and beliefs. 
 

The answer and this feeds into the question is it isn’t, and that allows me to pick apart some of the holes in this theory. 
 

 

 

To be innacurate. 

 

 

First, logically speaking, everything, in author's life affects their work. Jordan, as you mentioned, was a devout Christian and though some of his beliefs would sound a bit unorthodox to most Christians, he claimed to have a "deep and personal belief in God". As you stated, he took communion more than once a week. Even if we couldn't at first glance detect it, his beliefs certainly had influence on his work.

 

 

But secondly, the things is, we ARE able to detect influences: Rand is explicitly a messiah. The Crown of Swords is inspired by Crown of Thorns and language used in prophecies of the Dragon could be easily attributed to Jesus if you change a term here or there. The very first prophecy we read in Eye of the World describes people calling Creator "the Light of the World", which is how God (and Jesus) are referred to in the Bible. There are probably other similarities that I can't think of right now.

 

 

On the rest though, you are taking all things we know in the books and that's true. That is, of course, all assuming the world was always cyclical, which doesn't need to be the case. (It is if we take the story alone. However, as I said, this is a tinfoil theory, and just a nice thought experiment.)

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Rhaegar Targaryen said:

Sir_Charrid

 

 

Though obviously that theory itself doesn't work unless you seriously tweak some things in cosmology of Wheel of Time I find this statement from you:

 

 

 

To be innacurate. 

 

 

First, logically speaking, everything, in author's life affects their work. Jordan, as you mentioned, was a devout Christian and though some of his beliefs would sound a bit unorthodox to most Christians, he claimed to have a "deep and personal belief in God". As you stated, he took communion more than once a week. Even if we couldn't at first glance detect it, his beliefs certainly had influence on his work.

 

 

But secondly, the things is, we ARE able to detect influences: Rand is explicitly a messiah. The Crown of Swords is inspired by Crown of Thorns and language used in prophecies of the Dragon could be easily attributed to Jesus if you change a term here or there. The very first prophecy we read in Eye of the World describes people calling Creator "the Light of the World", which is how God (and Jesus) are referred to in the Bible. There are probably other similarities that I can't think of right now.

 

 

On the rest though, you are taking all things we know in the books and that's true. That is, of course, all assuming the world was always cyclical, which doesn't need to be the case. (It is if we take the story alone. However, as I said, this is a tinfoil theory, and just a nice thought experiment.)

See it’s strange how never really made the connections you point out, I mean yes Rand is the hero but he matches many of the typical fantasy hero tropes so didn’t jump out as being particularly messianic, and then he gets 3 wives etc. I usually spot overt religious influence in fantasy writing but it really didn’t jump out at me as much as that. 

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, Rhaegar Targaryen said:

On the rest though, you are taking all things we know in the books and that's true. That is, of course, all assuming the world was always cyclical, which doesn't need to be the case. (It is if we take the story alone. However, as I said, this is a tinfoil theory, and just a nice thought experiment.)

I will say on that tinfoil point I subscribe to the Idea "The Author is dead" 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author

This late 60's idea is that the moment an Author presents there work to anyone then any meaning they intended or meant is no longer valid. Any meaning or interpretation taken by the reader supersedes that of the author, and, for that matter anyone else for themselves. 

Therefore there are no Tinfoil hat theories, there are theories and ideas you disagree with, but, it is not anyones place to tell someone what they think about a work is wrong, we can debate, but ultimately we are both always right. This can then be folded out to all other forms of art, be it written (poetry, song lyrics), or music and painting etc. 

[SinisterDeath]

3 hours ago, Rhaegar Targaryen said:

Sir_Charrid

 

 

Though obviously that theory itself doesn't work unless you seriously tweak some things in cosmology of Wheel of Time I find this statement from you:

 

 

 

To be innacurate. 

 

 

First, logically speaking, everything, in author's life affects their work. Jordan, as you mentioned, was a devout Christian and though some of his beliefs would sound a bit unorthodox to most Christians, he claimed to have a "deep and personal belief in God". As you stated, he took communion more than once a week. Even if we couldn't at first glance detect it, his beliefs certainly had influence on his work.

 

 

But secondly, the things is, we ARE able to detect influences: Rand is explicitly a messiah. The Crown of Swords is inspired by Crown of Thorns and language used in prophecies of the Dragon could be easily attributed to Jesus if you change a term here or there. The very first prophecy we read in Eye of the World describes people calling Creator "the Light of the World", which is how God (and Jesus) are referred to in the Bible. There are probably other similarities that I can't think of right now.

 

 

On the rest though, you are taking all things we know in the books and that's true. That is, of course, all assuming the world was always cyclical, which doesn't need to be the case. (It is if we take the story alone. However, as I said, this is a tinfoil theory, and just a nice thought experiment.)

The only thing I'm going to add to this, is the Wheel of Time isn't influenced by Christianity alone.
RJ was a historian (and a Mason).
He studied American and world history, including other religions & philosophies. Those beliefs and stories are littered throughout this book series if you know where to look.

Perrin = Thor
Mat = Odin (Hung from the tree of knowledge, gave up an eye, carries around a freakin' spear)

The Aiel are based on the Zulu, Bedouin, Apache and Japanese cultures.

The Aelfinn & Eelfin are literally fae. Seelie and Unseelie. Summer and Winter.
Aes Sedai's 3 oaths are reminiscent of the rules that bind the Fae. 

[Samt]

One of the central ideas of the wheel of time is that, as the wheel turns, ages of the past slip into legend and are eventually forgotten entirely.  As such, real people in the wheel of time universe become legends and are eventually forgotten.  In the process of becoming legends, some details are changed, embellished, or simply made up.  This process is explored with Birgitte and the stories that are told about her.  

 

It's not so much that Perrin is Thor or that Matt is Odin or Loki.  The idea is that the story of Thor is a legend based on Perrin.  The story of Odin is based on Matt.

 

In regards to Rand, I think the evidence that he is supposed to be the inspiration for the creation myth of Adam is somewhat sparse.  There are, on the other hand, direct parallels that suggest the legend of King Arthur is supposed to be about Rand.  Interestingly, there is also strong evidence that the story of Lucifer is supposed to be about Lews Therin.  The Book of Revelation in the Bible refers to Lucifer as both "the Dragon," and "The son of the Morning."

 

In other words, I think Robert Jordan's intention was to suggest that the myths of various cultures in the modern world were inspired by the characters of the wheel of time series who lived ages ago.