Shall we talk about that Lanfear thing? :) -heavy spoilers!!

[Samt]

On 1/28/2023 at 6:20 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

Is he free from the pattern? Or does he simply continue to shape the pattern around him, only now he consciously controls that rather then simply random events happening. I don’t see this being the end of Rands adventures, despite everything I don’t think he will ever be happy settled on a sheep farm. He is far more likely to become the new Jain Farstrider. 

Is there a functional difference between being free from the pattern and being able to consciously control the pattern?  The pattern still exists and everything in the world is always going to be part of it.  The only question was always whether you get to decide your own fate.  

 

The series explores the question of who has more freedom: the average farmer or the chosen one?  Rand is, of course, more powerful in raw terms.  But he is also more tightly controlled by the pattern and in that way is perhaps less powerful.  The average farmer can choose quite a bit and the pattern will leave him to it.  

 

It seems incompatible for epilogue Rand to be both able to dictate the pattern while also being interested in affecting the large scale happenings of the world.  That would essentially be equivalent to Rand becoming the pattern.  Either there are very significant limits on what he can actually affect or there are limits on what he is interested in affecting.  I think that the events of Tarmon Gaidon actually lead to Rand understanding this.  The only way for him to actually be free is for him to limit his sphere of influence.  

Of course, that doesn't mean that he can't travel and see things.  But he would need to limit himself to being an observer.  He can't have adventures in the sense of trying to impact the outcome.  

 

Of course, this is just how I see it and everyone is free to imagine the world as they wish.  If there were more books to come, it might be different.  But if Rand is a major player in the sequels, then he needs a kryptonite.  You can't have Superman without Kryptonite.  

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Samt said:

Is there a functional difference between being free from the pattern and being able to consciously control the pattern?  The pattern still exists and everything in the world is always going to be part of it.  The only question was always whether you get to decide your own fate.  

 

The series explores the question of who has more freedom: the average farmer or the chosen one?  Rand is, of course, more powerful in raw terms.  But he is also more tightly controlled by the pattern and in that way is perhaps less powerful.  The average farmer can choose quite a bit and the pattern will leave him to it.  

 

It seems incompatible for epilogue Rand to be both able to dictate the pattern while also being interested in affecting the large scale happenings of the world.  That would essentially be equivalent to Rand becoming the pattern.  Either there are very significant limits on what he can actually affect or there are limits on what he is interested in affecting.  I think that the events of Tarmon Gaidon actually lead to Rand understanding this.  The only way for him to actually be free is for him to limit his sphere of influence.  

Of course, that doesn't mean that he can't travel and see things.  But he would need to limit himself to being an observer.  He can't have adventures in the sense of trying to impact the outcome.  

 

Of course, this is just how I see it and everyone is free to imagine the world as they wish.  If there were more books to come, it might be different.  But if Rand is a major player in the sequels, then he needs a kryptonite.  You can't have Superman without Kryptonite.  

Rand is no more controlled by the pattern then anyone else, he made decisions and was never “forced” he did what he felt he needed to do but nothing would have stopped him going and doing something very different. Egwene saw the outcome of some of those different choices early on, but he could have changed his own destiny at any point including the end. 

[Sabio]

Being Ta'veren he didn't have a lot of freedom since the pattern was going to push him along regardless.  He could have said I'm not going to Tear but there was always the chance the pattern would have forced him to go there regardless.  

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, Sabio said:

Being Ta'veren he didn't have a lot of freedom since the pattern was going to push him along regardless.  He could have said I'm not going to Tear but there was always the chance the pattern would have forced him to go there regardless.  

He had complete freedom, the issue is that if he had not gone to tear then the darklord would have won. This is alluded to throughout the books, how previous dragons actions have led to moments where the dark lord has been more or less victorious each turning. This Rand did the right things because that makes for a much better story, but his actions where his own. The wheel would not have "made him do the right thing" it probably would have just ended up him dying. Matt is told this, he is told that if he does not follow his destiny he will die. had he not been told that he may well have left Rands side gone off on his own, and ended up dead and the last battle then lost.  

[Stedding Tofu]

On 1/30/2023 at 11:49 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

Oh I don’t think he will actively seek out adventure, but, in a world such as Randland I think on traveling around adventure will find him. 

 

A Jain Farstrider by accident?  "Why does it always happen to me?!" 😄

 

His last pov reveals he is no longer ta'veren and he is incognito.  I think he can avoid adventure if he chooses to.

 

14 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Rand is no more controlled by the pattern then anyone else, he made decisions and was never “forced” he did what he felt he needed to do but nothing would have stopped him going and doing something very different. Egwene saw the outcome of some of those different choices early on, but he could have changed his own destiny at any point including the end. 

 

But ta'veren are chosen out by The Wheel to correct The Pattern or to form a particular weaving of it.  It's not accidental that three ta'veren arise in The Two Rivers all about the same age.  What is interesting is that while Rand was being born on Dragonmount (only being brought to The Two Rivers later) Perrin and Mat are being born hundreds of miles away.  At what point were they marked out as ta'veren?  When Rand arrived, beforehand or after?

 

As for The Pattern and control, consider Mat.  Nynaeve and Elayne quite deliberately produce him in the negotiation with The Seafolk to force them into a bargain they would not otherwise make (quite manipulatively without telling him what they were after but that's another gripe 🤨) so The Pattern forces or affects others through ta'veren.  We know this of course, it's the key feature and purpose of ta'veren.  But look at Mat at the battle of Cairhien: every attempt he makes to flee drives him deeper and deeper into the battle until he kills Couladin and so The Band of The Red Hand is born despite his every attempt to get away from fighting and Forsaken.  It seems The Pattern has had a purpose for him, maybe since birth (or before) and he can't escape it.

 

Fate and Free Will are of course the dominant themes in the series but with The Dark One defeated all of Perrin, Mat and Rand are "released" by The Pattern and are no longer ta'veren and can choose their course without being nudged or pulled here or there.

 

Well, Perrin is married to Faile and Mat to Tuon so there's that.....

 

[Dark Ones Taint]

I think I will make a longer post in the near future, but my gut reaction to that whole Perrin kills Lanfear scene, was that it felt wrong.  I didn't think her logic or the whole situation made sense.  But I chalked this up to questionable writing from BS and took it at face value.  

Hearing his secret revealed,  I do believe him.  Could he have done a better job executing it? Absolutely.  The fact that so many people doubt him now, shows that he didn't stick the landing.