Moridin? Shaidar Haran?

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Quote "Actually evidence seems to show that Ishamael was Nae'blis before the Breaking"

 

Erm thats wrong. Ishamael was never named Naeblis. In the realier books it was shown from Demandred POV when he had gone to Shayol Ghul and the Dark One asked him if he would be Naeblis, and asked him if he would use balefire. Now if Ishamael was already Naeblis then why would the Dark One be throwing comments about the posts' availability? Also, Im sure that another of the Forsaken spoke to the Dark One and he asked them if they would be Naeblis. Ishamael was never named Naeblis as far as I can remember. If youre going to say "EVIDENCE SHOWS THIS" then write what was said

[RobertAlexWillis]

I feel pretty sure that Elan Morin Tedronai/Ishamael/Moridin has always been, and will always be Nae'blis, because he is insane. And only someone who is insane would go along with what I believe is the Dark One's plan, which is, the total descruction of the Wheel, resulting in the death of everything connected to the Wheel (thats the Forsaken too.) The Dark One doesn't always make it official, so that he can dangle the Nae'blis carrot in front of the others to motivate them, but he's lying to them. This is based on my assessment of the Dark One's plans, though, and has not been explicitly stated in any of the books.

 

 

I still believe it though.

[Luckers]

Erm thats wrong. Ishamael was never named Naeblis. In the realier books it was shown from Demandred POV when he had gone to Shayol Ghul and the Dark One asked him if he would be Naeblis, and asked him if he would use balefire. Now if Ishamael was already Naeblis then why would the Dark One be throwing comments about the posts' availability? Also, Im sure that another of the Forsaken spoke to the Dark One and he asked them if they would be Naeblis. Ishamael was never named Naeblis as far as I can remember. If youre going to say "EVIDENCE SHOWS THIS" then write what was said

 

I did, my cocky friend. I wrote that what evidence shows was that Ishamael was the Dark Ones commander. If you're going to comment on a post, it always helps to read it.

 

Now, as i acknowledged in my post, Ishamael was never referred to as the title nae'blis, but nevertheless his role in the Age of Legends seems to have been exactly that.

 

The Dark One dangled Nae'blis as a tool to entice actions out of the Forsaken. This is not indicative of the fact that Ishamael was not nae'blis. Amongst other things Ishamael was still dead at this stage, but even if he hadn't been it wouldn't stop the Dark One offering it. Indeed, as the books show, the Dark One seems to use it as a sort of positive reinforcement. The fact that who is Nae'blis can changed is something that all of the Forsaken seem aware of, and plan for.

[RobertAlexWillis]

See, now that's the difference between myself and Luckers ... I call it a carrot, he calls it "positive reinforcement". Either way, it's the Dark One giving his own servants the eventual shaft. Moridin is Nae'blis because he's insane, and the Dark One likes it that way.

[Luckers]

In other words im a pretentious wank who uses too many big words. :D

 

It's so true. *sigh*

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, I just figured I was a simplistic Yank who liked the sight of his own typing :lol:

 

 

Actually though, it pretty much adds up to ... if Luckers and I agree, there's not much wiggling room, folks.

 

Of course when we disagree, I'm right.

 

 

As I'm SUUUUUUUURE Luckers will agree. :roll:

[Luckers]

Oh yes. Its true.

[KaptainKaos]

Agree to disagree, good stuff. It looks like you guys got this one covered so I don't really have to say anything except I also think that Ishamael has been Nae'blis unoffically since the Age of Legends and there are several pieces of evidence that this is the case one is the battle that occured in the Age of Legends at Paaren Disen where it is said that Lews Therin Telamon defeated Ishamael the Betrayer of Hope stopping the Shadow from completely taking over right before the Forsaken and Dark One were resealed in the Bore even though all or most of the Forsaken were present at this battle and Ishamael definitely is not in any sense described as a general like Demandred and Be'lal were (If you're wondering if this actually happened remember Moghedien's disdain for the Black Ajah saying they hadn't tasted the victory at Paaren Disen and I could go on quoting other references to this battle including the short story written by Robert Jordan The Strike at Shayol Ghul). Also Ishamael did have the insight, power, luck or maybe even special gift from the Dark One to not be completely sealed. So, at the very least you could say Ishamael the Betrayer of Hope and/or Moridin has pretty much always been among the top five of the Forsaken and has always been mentioned first in that top five list.

[Luckers]

Well we do have quote from the Forsaken that indicate that Ishy's job was somewhat administrative, things like thoughts on how Ishy always seemed to manage to get them to work together and the like. Additionally just because we've never heard the word Nae'blis applied to Ishy doesn't mean it wasn't--we were never exposed to the thoughts of meetings of the Forsaken until after he died. Not in any significant way at least.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Quote "I did, my cocky friend. I wrote that what evidence shows was that Ishamael was the Dark Ones commander. If you're going to comment on a post, it always helps to read it"

 

What evidence shows that Ishamael was named Nae'blis?

 

Also whoever said Elan Morin Tedronai/Ishamael/Moridin has always been Nae'blis because he is insane...WHAT? So the Dark Ones decision as to who is his second in command is based on how insane they are? i dont think so. The thing that made Moridin Nae'blis is that while he was Ishamael he served the Dark One even though he thought the Dark One wanted to destroy or whatever, not that he was insane. Otherwise Moridin wouldnt be Nae'blis seeing as he doesnt seem very insane at the moment. Osan'gar was more insane than Moridin has ever been since he was reincarnated so why wasnt he made Nae'blis? (Yes, I know hes either dead or has been in hiding before anyone comments on that last bit)

[KaptainKaos]

Dude, we never said that Ishamael was definitely named Nae'blis in the Age of Legends or at any point until it actually happens and we see evidence of it happening by the response of the other Forsaken and Shaidar Haran giving over Moghedien and Cyndane to Moridin's control. Under the Dark One's rule there is no absolute anyway but Ishamael has always been first among the Forsaken even the Forsaken themselves hint to this in several parts of the series.

 

If you want any evidence besides what you have in this post look at my last post above or just look at how much Ishamael/Moridin has been in this series, for cripes sake he was one of the first two characters introduced in the first book. And in that first part of the first book he was Ishamael the Betrayer of Hope standing as a representative for all of the Shadow to either have a part in or simply witness Lews Therin's death and madness. How far off of this chain of events would it be to have a hypothesis that Ishamael has basically held the position of Nae'blis since the Age of Legends and the Dark One didn't advertise it just to simply spur the others into action after their three thousand year imprisonment?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Also whoever said Elan Morin Tedronai/Ishamael/Moridin has always been Nae'blis because he is insane...WHAT? So the Dark Ones decision as to who is his second in command is based on how insane they are? i dont think so. The thing that made Moridin Nae'blis is that while he was Ishamael he served the Dark One even though he thought the Dark One wanted to destroy or whatever, not that he was insane. Otherwise Moridin wouldnt be Nae'blis seeing as he doesnt seem very insane at the moment. Osan'gar was more insane than Moridin has ever been since he was reincarnated so why wasnt he made Nae'blis? (Yes, I know hes either dead or has been in hiding before anyone comments on that last bit)

 

As I said that, I will respond to it.

 

I agree that Moridin in all his previous and current incarnations is Nae'blis because of his willingness to serve the Dark One despite knowing his plans. Isn't that insane? To support and help someone who plans to destroy you? That was the basis of my argument, that because Moridin/Ishamael knew the Dark One's plan, and supported it, he was both Nae'blis, and insane.

 

And Moridin doesn't seem insane at the moment? Buddy, he's off his rocker. Just because someone doesn't rave and drool doesn't mean they are sane. He supports a being whose aim is to obliterate him and the universe. Thats pretty bonkers to me.

 

Osan'gar's insanity was more of a mad scientist vagueness. He wasn't insane enough to know what the Dark One planned and support it. None of the other Forsaken are. They are all plotting for a post-Day of Return world, except for Moridin.

[Guest Majsju]

I agree that Moridin in all his previous and current incarnations is Nae'blis because of his willingness to serve the Dark One despite knowing his plans. Isn't that insane? To support and help someone who plans to destroy you? That was the basis of my argument, that because Moridin/Ishamael knew the Dark One's plan, and supported it, he was both Nae'blis, and insane.

 

And Moridin doesn't seem insane at the moment? Buddy, he's off his rocker. Just because someone doesn't rave and drool doesn't mean they are sane. He supports a being whose aim is to obliterate him and the universe. Thats pretty bonkers to me.

 

That's your theory of what the DO intends. Nothing in the books support this. On the contrary, the little we've heard about his plans is that he wants to destroy the Wheel and remake the world in his image. That kinda hints at the DOs plans does not include destroying the world.

 

And if there is one person who actually has at least a little grasp about what the DO actually intends, it's Moridin.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That's my point entirely.

 

What happens when the Dark One breaks the Wheel and remakes it in his own image? All the threads currently in the Wheel are inherently compromised. When you break something and remake it, its old form is completely destroyed.

 

And I agree that Moridin has "at least a little grasp about what the DO actually intends", in fact I think he knows the WHOLE plan, and still supports it. He's insane. The Dark One likes that, which is why he always picks Ishy/Moridin first.

 

And yes, I admit that this assessment is based on my opinion of what the Dark One plans. Since it is based on my opinion, it could be wrong. I don't think it is, but it could be.

[Luckers]

I agree with Robert. It's my belief that the Dark wants only to destroy the wheel, or at the very least that what comes after wont bear any reference to what is, and that his followers will be abandoned to die. I also think that Moridin is at least somewhat aware of this, yet continues in what he does anyway.

 

What evidence shows that Ishamael was named Nae'blis?

 

As I've said, several times, we know from the Forsaken (or indeed the Trollocs too) that Ishamael was in charge during the age of Legends, which is the role and function of the Nae'blis. As i also said, we never heard the term refered to him, but that may likely be because we never heard the term at all until after his death and the other Forsaken were scrambling for position.

 

Its a pointless debate, my original point was merely that Ishy was in charge, and with or without the title, he was.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Luckers you talk out of the wrong hole all the time i dont like it

[Luckers]

You mean you don't like that I support my disagreement with you with fact.... I'm tragically disapointed.

[racha_giurgiu]

Sometimes, Luckers, we just have to accept that people don't like to read too much into the series. If it is not explicitly stated than we can't fault him for choosing not to read between the lines. I regard myself as a casual observer, but our friend LTT here, obviously doesn't spend nights awake trying to figure out who killed Asmo because if it wasn't stated directly in the books it doesn't matter. Perhaps he's not read anything RJ has said in his posts or his forums/conversations and thus does not realize there is so much more to WOT than the words on a page.

[Jellybelly]

Then he should not be participating in a discussion requiring that sort of knowledge, should he?

[KaptainKaos]

He definitely shouldn't be, at least in this instance... I think almost every post that has supported that Ishamael has pretty much been number one Forsaken since they were established has given enough facts from the actual words in the books to support that statement and their isn't really any argument left for those who say that Ishamael hasn't always been the number one Forsaken. Just read the earlier posts if you don't entirely buy into this.

[Luckers]

Thanks guys, though racha has a point too. Don't get me wrong, if LTT has a point to make ill address it, but if he just intends to ignore everything in favour of his blind convicitions, then we shouldn't respond.