body swap

[cloglord]

Is it wierd that we seem to be agreeing alot lately? I'm liking it.

 

Yeah, well you need help keeping RAW's head from getting too big.  Its alright, he and I will gang up on you sometime, or you and he on me, LoL.  We could just get this cycle going again, and you can dig up your "Seanchan attack on the White Tower," thread, and I'll drag out the old, "Sing the Bore Shut," theory.  It's been a while since I've seen anything truely new.  Can't wait for the AMoL prolouge so we can turn out a whole new crop of crazy theories based on 100 pages of secondary character POV's.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah, well you need help keeping RAW's head from getting too big.

 

Isn't it nice to know that people don't come to these threads with an agenda?

[cloglord]

Quote

Yeah, well you need help keeping RAW's head from getting too big.

 

Isn't it nice to know that people don't come to these threads with an agenda?

 

I was responding to a comment from Luckers, if I was really serious about going after you I would have picked one of your favorite theories and come down on it with all the time, effort, and weight of argument I could bring to bear.  That is if you ever came up with a theory of your own...

 

If you had cared to read the rest of my comment, you might have noticed that I was referencing the somewhat cyclical nature of the topics posted here, and the relationships that develop.  To anyone who's been around long enough, the fact that Luckers and I are agreeing so much is odd.  We have agreed AND disagreed in the past.  It seems simple enough to me that you and I, (I mean you RAW,) could go through a similar episode of heated disagreement, and come out the otherside not hating each other.  Similarly, I have witnessed you and Luckers, disagreeing in a rather heated fashion. 

 

From my POV, I am having the same issues with your behavior that I had, nad no longer have, with Luckers.  There is nothing wrong with being popular within a given community, but when you begin to see your reputation as a sense of entitlement, I will take issue.  No matter how much you have read, no matter how many hours you have spent here, no matter how many posts you have made, you have no right to shower the rest of us with condecention. Take issue with other people's POV all you like, but to label their arguments as naive, ludicrous, or dismiss them out of hand without even taking the time to articulate why, you make yourself seem highhanded and elitist.  This is particularly upsetting to me, because I know that you are better than that, you have demonstrated it many times in the past.  I, on the otherhand, am a self proclaimed @sshole, and never claimed any differently.

 

Just so you know, I didn't come here with any agenda, I was, and am simply responding to what was written.  In fact the only thing I feel bad about at all, is that this has appeared to hijacked this thread to some degree.

 

 

[Andrew the Great]

Sorry if this has been said already, but it seems to me that this doesn't really fit Min's viewing that Two MERGE into one and one dies. To me, a merge isn't a swap. Also, the whole thing with Rand and Alivia finding Ishamael after TG doesn't make sense to me either. "To live, you must die." To me, this means that Rand must somehow die DURING TG, and then somehow be living. Except, I suppose they could just kill Moridin (In Rand's body) at the last battle. Hmmmmmmm (puts on thinking face)

 

[Luckers]

There is issues with the word merge, I agree, though if RJ chose to play it that way i could see myself not being too perturbed.

 

Also, the whole thing with Rand and Alivia finding Ishamael after TG doesn't make sense to me either. "To live, you must die." To me, this means that Rand must somehow die DURING TG, and then somehow be living. Except, I suppose they could just kill Moridin (In Rand's body) at the last battle. Hmmmmmmm (puts on thinking face)

 

We don't actually know the nature of Rand's question. If indeed it was 'how do i survive the Last Battle and win' then yes, the life/death incident may occur within the Last Battle itself. On the other hand the last Battle almost certainly will not be one singular battle, and i have no doubt the fighting even after the Shadow's forces break for soem months or even years.

 

Altogether i do not think we know enough to set a time basis for that question--i mean its hardly an issue if that basis is there, Moridin can die in the fighting, i just like the idea of seeing the aftermath from his point of view.

[Andrew the Great]

Thanks for clarifying, that makes a lot more sense.

[lou]

for clarification: exactly how do you see the swap happening? there hasnt been much use in the connection so far. the two men get dizzy, are unable to grasp the power, and get some images of each other. how is this going to enable one or the other to invasively take over the body of the other one? i have read the threads, but i still dont see how the actual swap is sopposed to take place. this isnt a bash or a scoff, just honest curiousity. i think i am missing something here.

[Luckers]

The issue is that the bond is increasing in strength. It began with a fuzzy mishmash of sensations that made them dizzy, in time those perception have grown increasingly strong until now they represent a clear image that doesn't make Rand fill ill at all. My suggestion is that the bond will continue to grow stronger.

 

Specifically i suspect they will confront each other, and at some stage during that confrontation Rand will sever Moridin's connection to the Dark One much as he did in Tear with Ishamael. Moridin will then be forced to draw on saidin and that will be the catalyst for the swap (as we know that drawing on saidin is the function that opens the connection). Their proximity, the fact that for the first time both are drawing on saidin, and the increasing strength of the bond will be what allows the swap to occur.

[lou]

ok. physical proximity is key, and we know that it is likely to happen as rand will have to travel to SG, and the bore, that is where they will likely meet up. i know that you have given this theory a great deal of thought and research, and it is very well thought out. thank you for the clarification.

[Luckers]

Well, though I think physical proximity may be a factor, it wasn't really what i was getting at. I'd say the key will be the fact that both are drawing saidin at the same moment combined with the increasing strength of the bond.

[cloglord]

I think just such an encounter is what is prophecised by this passage,

 

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

 

Red on black are of course Moridin's colors, and if a body swap occurred then Moridin's wounds would in fact be the Dragon's blood.

 

Of course this is just a pet loony theory of mine.

[Luckers]

That hadn't occured to me. In fact there is something sort of poetic about the whole idea--especially given the way character like Elaida assume it to mean Rand's death.

 

Of course ive always found that prophecy ambiguos. We don't even know it refers to a death, or even to Rand--the Aiel are Rand's blood, and most of the Andoran noble houses. Rand has children and an uncle still alive as well...

[cloglord]

Of course ive always found that prophecy ambiguos. We don't even know it refers to a death, or even to Rand

 

Which is why I think that it shouldn't be taken literally. EVERYone seems to think that it predicts Rand's death, yet it is so vauge.  I think RJ intended a suprise for us here.

[RobertAlexWillis]

This one:

 

"Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul."

 

could be considered vague ...

 

These:

 

"If you would live, you must die." (KoD ch 18 )

 

"Rand, I like Alivia. But she is going to kill you."  "Helping me die isn't the same as killing me. Unless you've changed your mind about what you saw." (WH ch 25)

 

.... not so much.  Rand's gonna die.

[cloglord]

"If you would live, you must die." (KoD ch 18 )

 

The answers that they give are not always straightforward, in fact it has been mentioned a number of times that their answers are often misleading or ambiguous.  That siad I don't think that this answer would be a disqualifier, for instance....

 

"If you would live (spiritually), then you must die (physically)."

 

"Rand, I like Alivia. But she is going to kill you."  "Helping me die isn't the same as killing me. Unless you've changed your mind about what you saw." (WH ch 25)

 

This is also easily explained.  If we are talking about the death of Rand's physical body, and Min's visions are visual, she could easily see the death of Rand's body and misinterpret it.

 

I think both of the examples that you gave are ambiguous.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, I suppose we'll see, won't we?

[Luckers]

I agree with Robert. That one prophecy is ambiguos, the others are not. Rand's actual death, to me, seems assured.

[Kura]

Well, though I think physical proximity may be a factor, it wasn't really what i was getting at. I'd say the key will be the fact that both are drawing saidin at the same moment combined with the increasing strength of the bond.

 

Well, I agree that Saidin will be the catalyst, I think proximity, and more so location (SG) will be equally important. Most, if not all, of the soul trapping/transmigrating/movement in generel has happened at SG, and I think that for something that so defies the nautural order of things, like switching bodies, it would have to happen in the warped setting of Shayol Ghul.

 

As a side note, crud. I finally say something that you support Luckers, and I show up to late to really gloat.  ;)

[Luckers]

Most, if not all, of the soul trapping/transmigrating/movement in generel has happened at SG, and I think that for something that so defies the nautural order of things, like switching bodies, it would have to happen in the warped setting of Shayol Ghul.

 

Well, thats not actually true. Of all the incidences of soul manipulation only the four incidences of Forsaken transmigration have occured at Shayol Ghoul, and even with our knowledge of the fact that the Blight and Shayol Ghoul stand outside normal reality, that seems to me to have more to do with the nature of the transmigrator (the Dark One) and the point of his access than to any especial 'soul' nature of Shayol Ghoul.

 

Recall that soul manipulation is, if not always natural, relatively common. We have seen Oredeith's soul survive his bodies death and plant itself in a new body, we have seen Machin Shin consume souls to sustain its own nature. Dreamers souls leave their bodies all the time, and through Perrin we know they can leave all the way, even though this generally causes death. We know through dream ter'angreal that people found methods to use the power to pull their own souls out, and through the likes of the hedgehog or the dream ter'angreal Temaile has that people found ways to pull other peoples souls out of their bodies, even so far as to fully remove them. And all of these without either proximity to Shyol Ghoul, or the Dark One's influence.

 

 

[Kura]

Heh, alright, you got me there, though I have to throw up my paper wall here and say that Machin Shin was influenced by the DO, taint on Saidin and all. :)

 

Still, it'd seem somehow wrong to me if it didn't happen at SG, considering the likely hood of Ishy and Rand meeting at SG, most likely with the seals smashed, epic battle insues. At the very least, it seems that the most likely meeting place for these two champions in TG, is SG. Though, not sure what the DO would have to say with Rand so close to him, and his whole no channal in SG rule...

[Luckers]

Heh, alright, you got me there, though I have to throw up my paper wall here and say that Machin Shin was influenced by the DO, taint on Saidin and all

 

Well, technically speaking Maching Shin is more like a bacterium that has grown on something rotted. We know from RJ that in itself Machin Shin does not require the taint or the Dark One in order to exist.

 

Still, it'd seem somehow wrong to me if it didn't happen at SG, considering the likely hood of Ishy and Rand meeting at SG, most likely with the seals smashed, epic battle insues. At the very least, it seems that the most likely meeting place for these two champions in TG, is SG. Though, not sure what the DO would have to say with Rand so close to him, and his whole no channal in SG rule...

 

I too expect that it will occur at Shayol Goul, i just dont think that being at Shayol Goul is nessasary, nor will it play anything but a thematic role in the actual function of the swap.

 

Also people can channel in Shayol Goul--the Dark One's opinions on the matter are only important to his subordinates who fear his wrath in violating his rules.

[Kura]

Heh, alright, you got me there, though I have to throw up my paper wall here and say that Machin Shin was influenced by the DO, taint on Saidin and all

 

Well, technically speaking Maching Shin is more like a bacterium that has grown on something rotted. We know from RJ that in itself Machin Shin does not require the taint or the Dark One in order to exist.

 

Well, it did grow from the DO's influence, so its 'birth', and I use that term loosely, was a result from the taint, and thus from the DO. Still, I officailly deem you the paper shredder. ;)

 

Still, it'd seem somehow wrong to me if it didn't happen at SG, considering the likely hood of Ishy and Rand meeting at SG, most likely with the seals smashed, epic battle insues. At the very least, it seems that the most likely meeting place for these two champions in TG, is SG. Though, not sure what the DO would have to say with Rand so close to him, and his whole no channal in SG rule...

 

I too expect that it will occur at Shayol Goul, i just dont think that being at Shayol Goul is nessasary, nor will it play anything but a thematic role in the actual function of the swap.

 

Yeah, I see your point. I shoulda stuck with my mind traps.

 

Also people can channel in Shayol Goul--the Dark One's opinions on the matter are only important to his subordinates who fear his wrath in violating his rules.

 

Thanks for clearing that one up for me.

[Luckers]

Well, it did grow from the DO's influence, so its 'birth', and I use that term loosely, was a result from the taint, and thus from the DO. Still, I officailly deem you the paper shredder.

 

Sorry, I was being a twat, wasn't I. Feel free to slap me when I do that. Just ask Caddy, it works wonders.

 

 

[Cadsuane]

*nods*

 

You'll have him begging for more in no time. It's done wonders for our previously bland Saturday nights.

[Luckers]

Indeed. WAY better than games night.