Nyneave as Wisdom

[aburuq]

Ive been rereading after 15+ years and have gotten to book 7....and even now as shes starting to grow more as a character, I keep wondering to myself: how in the world was Nyneave the wisdom? She has literally 0 leadership or people skills, 0 self awareness, no control over her emotions...basically just supremely immature. It's rather annoying and seems unrealistic that someone who was in her position could be so. 

 

Also, what is with the level of loathing of Mat in books 6-7...like I get she finds him frustrating but what is with the over the top feeling that he is the worst thing in the world and would do anything to keep away from him and otherwise just hits him the first chance she gets? What is that about?

Edited August 2, 2022 by aburuq

[DojoToad]

Several reasons:

• Many of the women in Emond's Field liked yelling at the men and telling them to keep out of Women's Circle business - Nynaeve was their champion
• She was extremely talented at healing - both with and without the power.
• No one else wanted the job - they had enough going on with their families

I agree with you that she was lacking in the areas you mentioned.  Just throwing out what if's as to why she was chosen...

[Stedding Tofu]

I imagine those who weren't in favour were hit over the head or bullied into agreeing 😄

 

But her skills as a healer are what is important for the role.  The fact that the healer is also a de facto leader is odd as there is no reason that person would have any relevant skills or attributes but that's how RJ designed it.

 

The particular issue she has with Mat is that she knows she can't bully him or use The One Power on him because of his medallion.  Given she kicked him pretty hard in the backside in Salidar she has reason to believe he may even the score (as you're re-reading I'll just say Mat and Joline and leave it at that) but she's stuck with him because Egwene manipulates him into going to Ebou Dar with her and Elayne so she can use The Band as a spur to drive the Aes Sedai north.

 

Nynaeve as you know is a bit of a control freak and can't handle not getting her own way so having Mat accompany them on what she considers Aes Sedai / her (Women's Circle) business and interfere practically causes her an aneurism.  And as for having to ask him to help!  Nynaeve gives people commands or dismisses them, she does not ask them for help!  She's not really big on teamwork either.

 

Elayne is almost equally bad until Mat saves her from the gholam.  But Mat has a rather bad reputation as a wastrel to overcome.

[Andra]

Also, neither Nynaeve nor Elayne have yet acknowledged the role Mat played in getting them (and Egwene) out of the Stone.  BEFORE he had the medallion.

And Nynaeve knows she should have, at least subconsciously.  I think that realization is eating at her.

[aburuq]

What yall are saying about the healing definitely makes sense, that she would have been given that role. You would just think that having been in that role for like what, 5-10 years or something, she would have learned some really basic skills of how to relate to human beings and not act like a spoiled 5 year old bully... 

 

9 hours ago, Andra said:

Also, neither Nynaeve nor Elayne have yet acknowledged the role Mat played in getting them (and Egwene) out of the Stone.  BEFORE he had the medallion.

And Nynaeve knows she should have, at least subconsciously.  I think that realization is eating at her.

I like this interpretation. Along with Nyneave being supremely immature. 

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, aburuq said:

What yall are saying about the healing definitely makes sense, that she would have been given that role. You would just think that having been in that role for like what, 5-10 years or something, she would have learned some really basic skills of how to relate to human beings and not act like a spoiled 5 year old bully... 

 

I like this interpretation. Along with Nyneave being supremely immature. 

Some people never mature in one area or another.  I work with a woman that is phenomenal at her job, but she has terrible people skills: very negative, a bully, a gossip - toxic.

 

I and her direct boss have been coaching her for 3 years with little improvement and plenty of backsliding.  It has now gotten to the point where we have to consider being done.  She will be a huge loss because the experience that would be walking out the door.  But do we want to keep her while she continues brewing a toxic environment?  She's been with the company over 15 years and is always at work - and as mentioned is a superstar performer.  Which is why it has taken so long to come to a head.

 

Long way of saying that she could be Nynaeve.  People like this actually exist.

Edited August 3, 2022 by DojoToad

[Stedding Tofu]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Some people never mature in one area or another.  I work with a woman that is phenomenal at her job, but she has terrible people skills: very negative, a bully, a gossip - toxic.

 

I and her direct boss have been coaching her for 3 years with little improvement and plenty of backsliding.  It has now gotten to the point where we have to consider being done.  She will be a huge loss because the experience that would be walking out the door.  But do we want to keep her while she continues brewing a toxic environment?  She's been with the company over 15 years and is always at work - and as mentioned is a superstar performer.  Which is why it has taken so long to come to a head.

 

Long way of saying that she could be Nynaeve.  People like this actually exist.

 

Tricky.  Either you hire an Alise Tenjaile (The Kin) or Cadsuane - both of whom come with their own problem attitudes - or you set her up with a Lan 😄

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

Tricky.  Either you hire an Alise Tenjaile (The Kin) or Cadsuane - both of whom come with their own problem attitudes - or you set her up with a Lan 😄

LOL, not trying to fight fire with more fire.

[RextheDog]

on a basic note...the whole Mat, Nyneave, Elayne stuff in books 6-7 is too overplayed.....almost like a three stodges movie.....as if between the three of them they cant have a quick chat to iron out the creases.

 

i really enjoy Jordans world, but sometimes he goes way to basic with the characters...Faile and Perrin are unbearable for a lot of the time becuase of this....at least the M,N,E charade is just frustrating, with glimpses of them seeing each others points

[aburuq]

On 8/4/2022 at 6:04 AM, RextheDog said:

on a basic note...the whole Mat, Nyneave, Elayne stuff in books 6-7 is too overplayed.....almost like a three stodges movie.....as if between the three of them they cant have a quick chat to iron out the creases.

 

i really enjoy Jordans world, but sometimes he goes way to basic with the characters...Faile and Perrin are unbearable for a lot of the time becuase of this....at least the M,N,E charade is just frustrating, with glimpses of them seeing each others points

 

YES! thank you for saying that. The whole Mat Elayne Nyneave thing was rather insufferable. In general the whole "battle of the sexes" trope of women and men thinking of eachother as fools and distrusting each other etc, gets really tiring. And the women usually come out really being especially foolish. Can't help but think some sexist imagination of women's emotions that RJ had at times... (like incredibly wise mature Aes Sedai who are like probably 80 years old, always in control of their emotions etc....fainting because someone said something they're surprised by).

[Stedding Tofu]

31 minutes ago, aburuq said:

YES! thank you for saying that. The whole Mat Elayne Nyneave thing was rather insufferable. In general the whole "battle of the sexes" trope of women and men thinking of eachother as fools and distrusting each other etc, gets really tiring. 

I quite agree.  And this characterisation receives a lot of criticism.  But, grate as it does, it's really no more than a play on the trope or cliche that women like shopping and men like football and can't see the other's pov, or perhaps that the characters believe the stereotype that women can't park or men can't multitask and treat each other accordingly.  The issue is it's overdone and dominates practically every interaction.

 

35 minutes ago, aburuq said:

Can't help but think some sexist imagination of women's emotions that RJ had at times... (like incredibly wise mature Aes Sedai who are like probably 80 years old, always in control of their emotions etc....fainting because someone said something they're surprised by).

I think you're referring to Merilille fainting when she learns Reanne's age.  In which case I partly agree.  Given the test for Accepted and later for the shawl puts Aes Sedai through their paces to weed out those who can't handle huge pressure while maintaining outward calm it seems a fairly absurd reaction.  I think RJ was just going for dramatic effect - a number of The Kin faint when confronted by Aes Sedai but then so does one of the Aes Sedai (curtain falls at end of scene, audience chortle or murmur - or roll their eyes).

 

In general RJ sets up the Aes Sedai from Book 1 and in the popular imagination in universe to be mysterious, all-knowing and all-powerful - and then takes great pains to being them down to earth with a long process of humbling, whether being bested by The Wise Ones, Windfinders, Sul'dam & Damane, Sharans, Rand or The Black Tower, or by revealing them to be petty, peevish, jealous of their prerogatives and almost contemptuous to those lower in the hierarchy of power.  I always took that as a deconstruction of a myth (or a carefully fabricated image) that also required the Aes Sedai to appear faintly or fairly ridiculous and petty to us to make sure the image was shattered.   In other words it's more the humbling of the mighty than slighting women.

[aburuq]

9 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

I quite agree.  And this characterisation receives a lot of criticism.  But, grate as it does, it's really no more than a play on the trope or cliche that women like shopping and men like football and can't see the other's pov, or perhaps that the characters believe the stereotype that women can't park or men can't multitask and treat each other accordingly.  The issue is it's overdone and dominates practically every interaction.

Agreed. On the count that there are plenty of people who do hold those stereotypes, and that it's overdone - both in that way too many people hold those views, and like you said they have those thoughts in each interaction. oh well.

 

 

And I like your interpretation of the shattering of the image of the Aes Sedia. 

[RextheDog]

yep,

i have zero problems with the Aes sedai being taken down several notches as the epic progresses.

 

im not going all 'angry old man shouting at the clouds' but thered be a fair amount of issues if that story line was to be written and published today, it would become more base, old male wizards would be shown the light by dynamic younglings, which is a shame really, because even though my first read i really couldnt handle the girls, but in subsequent reads, their evolution is pretty cool, its something they couldnt do unless they were exposed by a stale institution too arrogant for thier own good.

 

Rey........ they aint, and thank the light for that.

 

but yes, the series is a bit dated in some aspects...i think i just bury myself in the world he created instead of being dissappointed by chracter flaws.

 

 

[Stedding Tofu]

7 hours ago, RextheDog said:

but yes, the series is a bit dated in some aspects...i think i just bury myself in the world he created instead of being dissappointed by chracter flaws.

 

It's a fascinating point how quickly attitudes change and how well or poorly works age.  We have tv shows like "It was acceptable in the 70s" where we are meant to react with shock at how people thought a generation ago.  Shows like Friends or comedy creations like Ali G from the 90s hit raw nerves or cross lines for some today.

 

Fantasy is meant to be immune from that in that it isn't set in and isn't meant to reflect the condition and attitudes of the real world.  We have to be able to relate, to sympathise and to empathise with our characters adn their predicament but is best if we enjoy the ride rather than look to identify, judge or see our values reflected.

 

The battle of the sexes is annoying because it's an exaggeration and magnifies the stereotypes the author adapts for the story and because it's ever present.  Still, the characters are mostly young, impulsive, strong-willed and inexperienced in dealing with the opposite sex and all growing into their adult selves as well as to fill important leadership roles so some level of confusion, bickering and conflict is warranted.  It's just too much 🙂

[DojoToad]

9 hours ago, RextheDog said:

but yes, the series is a bit dated in some aspects...i think i just bury myself in the world he created instead of being dissappointed by chracter flaws.

 

 

The world we live in is full of people with character flaws - why would books be different?

[RextheDog]

15 hours ago, DojoToad said:

The world we live in is full of people with character flaws - why would books be different?

 

written character....as in the context of the discussion , we were talking in particular how M, N and E miscommunicating is a bit basic.

 

and yes, there are people like that, but to me its out of character for those three, they have a world to save, Mat can call on the memories of multiple generals, (i.e, multiple experience of negotiations and communication), Nyneave is a wisdom and Elayne has been guided into ruling a country from a young age (diplomacy was probably introduced semester 1) so the character flaw of them not being able to discuss Rand wanting Elanye to come to Caemlyn to rule is really frustrating.

 

the more you analise it the worse it gets....she litterally has to just walk into the palace and assume rule, she could discuss the issues with the  imaging and process with Mat without a second thought and a solution would present itself.

 

 

[RextheDog]

17 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

It's a fascinating point how quickly attitudes change and how well or poorly works age.  We have tv shows like "It was acceptable in the 70s" where we are meant to react with shock at how people thought a generation ago.  Shows like Friends or comedy creations like Ali G from the 90s hit raw nerves or cross lines for some today.

 

Fantasy is meant to be immune from that in that it isn't set in and isn't meant to reflect the condition and attitudes of the real world.  We have to be able to relate, to sympathise and to empathise with our characters adn their predicament but is best if we enjoy the ride rather than look to identify, judge or see our values reflected.

 

The battle of the sexes is annoying because it's an exaggeration and magnifies the stereotypes the author adapts for the story and because it's ever present.  Still, the characters are mostly young, impulsive, strong-willed and inexperienced in dealing with the opposite sex and all growing into their adult selves as well as to fill important leadership roles so some level of confusion, bickering and conflict is warranted.  It's just too much 🙂

 

perfectly said, better than i could say....its just to overplayed and basic.

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, RextheDog said:

 

written character....as in the context of the discussion , we were talking in particular how M, N and E miscommunicating is a bit basic.

 

and yes, there are people like that, but to me its out of character for those three, they have a world to save, Mat can call on the memories of multiple generals, (i.e, multiple experience of negotiations and communication), Nyneave is a wisdom and Elayne has been guided into ruling a country from a young age (diplomacy was probably introduced semester 1) so the character flaw of them not being able to discuss Rand wanting Elanye to come to Caemlyn to rule is really frustrating.

 

the more you analise it the worse it gets....she litterally has to just walk into the palace and assume rule, she could discuss the issues with the  imaging and process with Mat without a second thought and a solution would present itself.

 

 

I don't know.  I've been in supervisory/managerial positions for over 15 years in both white and blue collar industries.  I still make leadership mistakes and kick myself for not knowing better.  RJ was probably a bit heavy handed, but I don't think these personal flaws and resulting mistakes should be eliminated.

 

Personal flaws and errors make us unique.

 

Cadsuane was a 'perfect' Aes Sedai but even she made errors.  Of course, she had several hundred years experience...

Edited August 8, 2022 by DojoToad

[RextheDog]

yep.

 

i think we have arrived at the same destination.

 

character flaws are good and need to be written in, RJ was a bit heavy handed on a few occassions.

 

when he does that....like when Nyneave pulls on her braid because Lan mentions he loves her and wants to protect her....i just think about the world he built and am able to continue enjoying the read.

[wotfan4472]

On 8/3/2022 at 1:30 AM, aburuq said:

 

 

Also, what is with the level of loathing of Mat in books 6-7...like I get she finds him frustrating but what is with the over the top feeling that he is the worst thing in the world and would do anything to keep away from him and otherwise just hits him the first chance she gets? What is that about?

Her reaction to Mat in books 6 and 7 is because he saved her, Elayne and Egwene in Tear. It was a bruised ego.

Elayne and Egwene both have similar feelings, and in Egwene's case, it is much worse since Mat was attacked by Halima in Salidar when he first arrived.

 

I also remember reading there were two Aes Sedai that witnessed the Halima and Mat interaction in that moment: the two that Halima would later murder and one of whom Egwene ordered to investigate Moghedien's escape. 

[JenaVi]

Not all leaders are liked or make friends with people. Some people lead with an iron fist, which is early Nynaeve, thanks to the stubborn people she dealt with in Emond's Field. Nynaeve has had leadership skills the whole series. It was Nynaeve, as early as book 2, that leads the rescue of Egwene. It's also mentioned she's good at politics... when it matters. She just doesn't care to be patient with people. She is rough with others and herself. Over the series, she learns to accept herself and others, which turns her into a better leader, but I bet she still brooks no non-sense. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by JenaVi

[DojoToad]

10 hours ago, JenaVi said:

Not all leaders are liked or make friends with people. Some people lead with an iron fist, which is early Nynaeve, thanks to the stubborn people she dealt with in Emond's Field. Nynaeve has had leadership skills the whole series. It was Nynaeve, as early as book 2, that leads the rescue of Egwene. It's also mentioned she's good at politics... when it matters. She just doesn't care to be patient with people. She is rough with others and herself. Over the series, she learns to accept herself and others, which turns her into a better leader, but I bet she still brooks no non-sense. 

Iron-fisted tyrant is a leadership style, true.  And that might be the only way to go when herding trollocs, but I believe the people of Emond's Field could be directed without getting kicked in the teeth just because they choose to think through a situation rather than blindly following their leader's first directive.

 

In fact, I believe Perrin (with Faile's help) did a much better job leading these same stubborn people without having to step on throats.

[Andra]

11 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Iron-fisted tyrant is a leadership style, true.  And that might be the only way to go when herding trollocs, but I believe the people of Emond's Field could be directed without getting kicked in the teeth just because they choose to think through a situation rather than blindly following their leader's first directive.

 

In fact, I believe Perrin (with Faile's help) did a much better job leading these same stubborn people without having to step on throats.

Also bear in mind that a big part of the reason Nynaeve has the issues she does is because she has had to spend her entire tenure as Wisdom trying to get people to remember her position, not her age.  She looks forward to her first wrinkles and gray hair so she will no longer be treated as too young for the responsibility.

 

She is extremely sensitive about having her authority respected, even more so with people who she could spank until very recently.  Rand seems to be the only one of the youngsters she doesn't act this way with at all, but Perrin is a close second.  Mostly because she always saw Perrin as the well-behaved one.

 

Mat got the short end of it because she always saw him as a slacker and scoundrel.  Ironically, she had the same problem recognizing him as a responsible(ish) grownup with his own authority that she had faced herself.  But it's Egwene who sets her off the most because she had been her apprentice.  Having the same rank as Accepted was difficult to - well - accept.

 

---

Perrin (with Faile) was better able to handle the stubborn folk because once he started being Ta'veren with them, they decided themselves that he was the boss.  No braid-tugging necessary.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Andra

[DojoToad]

12 hours ago, Andra said:

Also bear in mind that a big part of the reason Nynaeve has the issues she does is because she has had to spend her entire tenure as Wisdom trying to get people to remember her position, not her age.  She looks forward to her first wrinkles and gray hair so she will no longer be treated as too young for the responsibility.

 

She is extremely sensitive about having her authority respected, even more so with people who she could spank until very recently.  Rand seems to be the only one of the youngsters she doesn't act this way with at all, but Perrin is a close second.  Mostly because she always saw Perrin as the well-behaved one.

 

Mat got the short end of it because she always saw him as a slacker and scoundrel.  Ironically, she had the same problem recognizing him as a responsible(ish) grownup with his own authority that she had faced herself.  But it's Egwene who sets her off the most because she had been her apprentice.  Having the same rank as Accepted was difficult to - well - accept.

 

---

Perrin (with Faile) was better able to handle the stubborn folk because once he started being Ta'veren with them, they decided themselves that he was the boss.  No braid-tugging necessary.

Yes, Perrin had advantages - being ta'veren and having a wife who grew up in court.  And he also had years under Nynaeve's leadership to see what didn't work.

 

Perrin earned their respect (previously mentioned advantages aside) by never demanding it.  He asked for feedback.  He didn't insult them when they were being unreasonable - he turned their complaints back on them and helped them see that they were being 'stupid' instead of calling them stupid and kicking them in the ass.  He took firm control when it was obvious no one else would step up.

 

And in the end they followed him because he made it clear he didn't want to be in charge as opposed to her demanding respect.  Neither was a perfect leader, if there is such a thing.  But good leaders figure out what works in their situation, Nynaeve never did that.

 

[JenaVi]

Nynaeve makes a great Queen for Malkier imo because they are respectful to authority, unlike Two Rivers or Emond's Field folk. She is kind of a warrior. It's ok for men to be gruff and take no shit from people, but because Nynaeve is a woman she has to be soft and kind? Egwene wasn't soft and kind, she was arrogant and selfish. Nynaeve and Egwene are not like Perrin. Egwene rose to leadership by gaining acceptance of the other Aes Sedai... Nynaeve doesn't care about gaining anyone's acceptance. So much so that she'd choose Lan over being Aes Sedai. Not many people are like Perrin btw. Perhaps not anyone. All of our leaders are kind of aholes except Perrin and Elayne.