Matrim Cauthon as written by Sanderson

[MummyDust]

Maybe it's just me, but in my reread I really picked up on a change in how Mat is written by Sanderson as compared to RJ. My first time through, I was more paying attention to how much or little the overall writing styles would change. I absolutely LOVE how Sanderson writes Mat. He's always been a fantastic character, but Sanderson truly found a way to bring his complete package of character together. Most prominent is his humor. There were so many times in the last few books where I was laughing so hard I nearly cried...Mat describing Min's formal Doomseer clothing: "If this whole Doomseer title did not work out for her, perhaps she could find work as a chandelier. " His problem with nobleman being about boots. Going to Tuon in Ebou Dar to avoid the Last Battle....

 

Anyone else just really love how Sanderson wrote Mat?

[Juan Farstrider]

I agree, and I"m glad you made this post. Matt was a prankster, but the kind of jokes he pulled later on are of a different type and yes I laughed out loud a couple of times. Matt was left in good hands for certain. 

[Andra]

I felt the same about a lot of it.

Sanderson's Mat is more comfortable in his skin than Jordan's.  Which let him stop complaining so much and joking more.

 

It's possible that this change is actually something Jordan put in his notes - we know his command of the Light's forces was already intended.  And the two things fit together.  Think of it as being a result of Mat accepting his fate in the same way Rand does on top of Dragonmount.  An event that takes place in the book Jordan partially wrote himself.

 

But the specific humor in Mat is clearly Sanderson's rather than Jordan's.

[DojoToad]

I liked 'new' Mat.

[Chivalry]

Probably not the most popular take, but I actually did not like Sanderson's Mat as much as Jordan's. I still like Mat...it's hard not too. But for me, although Mat was aways mischievous and a prankster, I never thought of him as a comedian. The tone felt...off at times

 

I remember one scene in which Mat actually writes dialogue for his traveling companions (trying to avoid detection) - that scene struck me as too much of an inside joke, something one might find in a modern buddy comedy. That type of writer elbow nudging felt out of place in Jordan's world.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Chivalry

[Chivalry]

3 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

 

sorry, error

Edited March 27, 2022 by Chivalry

[Andra]

35 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

Probably not the most popular take, but I actually did not like Sanderson's Mat as much as Jordan's. I still like Mat...it's hard not too. But for me, although Mat was aways mischievous and a prankster, I never thought of him as a comedian. The tone felt...off at times

 

I remember one scene in which Mat actually writes dialogue for his traveling companions (trying to avoid detection) - that scene struck me as too much of an inside joke, something one might find in a modern buddy comedy. That type of writer elbow nudging felt out of place in Jordan's world.

I have to agree with you on that particular scene.

The humor I was talking about generally felt right for the character and the circumstances.  That bit didn't.

 

Partly because he had always been the guy to take serious things as jokes, and that seemed like taking a joke seriously.  Kind of the opposite of Mat.

 

Also because, though Mat has always let himself run to odd logic (to say the least) he never been one for writing.  And that scene made him out to be a burgeoning author.  Definitely the opposite of Mat.

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, Andra said:

I have to agree with you on that particular scene.

The humor I was talking about generally felt right for the character and the circumstances.  That bit didn't.

 

Partly because he had always been the guy to take serious things as jokes, and that seemed like taking a joke seriously.  Kind of the opposite of Mat.

 

Also because, though Mat has always let himself run to odd logic (to say the least) he never been one for writing.  And that scene made him out to be a burgeoning author.  Definitely the opposite of Mat.

Agreed as well.  Mat writing the fake backstory for each person was over the top and unneeded.  But no more so than Perrin's 'let the world burn' attitude as he tracked down Faile.  That took me out of the story way more than Mat's attempt at fiction writing.  Perrin was all about duty and his ridiculous, nothing-else-matters chase was all Jordan.

[Asthereal]

It's interesting to see some here prefer Sanderson's take on Mat over Jordan's. Sanderson himself revealed he had trouble getting the character of Mat right, and that he missed the mark in the first book especially. I knew about this going into book 12, but to me the difference never felt jarring. Sanderson's Mat was a bit different indeed, but not to such an extent that it ever bothered me.

 

As for preference: I'm not sure. I really like the Mat we get from book 3 onward, but the Mat from the Tower of Ghenjei and the Last Battle was also fantastic. Never too serious, but always on task. That definitely felt right. I think Sanderson got the basis right, but little details in how Mat views the world and his internal conflicts Sanderson just couldn't quite pin down.

 

And I forgive him. Mat's a nightmare to write. The fact alone that he's a gambler but at the same time super risk-adverse feels terrifying to have to put to paper properly, especially with a fandom of millions judging your efforts. ?

[Chivalry]

On 3/27/2022 at 5:29 AM, DojoToad said:

Agreed as well.  Mat writing the fake backstory for each person was over the top and unneeded.  But no more so than Perrin's 'let the world burn' attitude as he tracked down Faile.  That took me out of the story way more than Mat's attempt at fiction writing.  Perrin was all about duty and his ridiculous, nothing-else-matters chase was all Jordan.

Yup, this was not Jordan's best moment. 

[Shivan]

On 3/27/2022 at 12:34 AM, Chivalry said:

Probably not the most popular take, but I actually did not like Sanderson's Mat as much as Jordan's. I still like Mat...it's hard not too. But for me, although Mat was aways mischievous and a prankster, I never thought of him as a comedian. The tone felt...off at times

 

I remember one scene in which Mat actually writes dialogue for his traveling companions (trying to avoid detection) - that scene struck me as too much of an inside joke, something one might find in a modern buddy comedy. That type of writer elbow nudging felt out of place in Jordan's world.

 

I agree with you. It almost felt to me like a caricature of Mat, leaning into ridiculous comedy and adding new character traits with the letter writing and creating characters before going into town. It also bothered me that he exaggeratedly shirked responsibilities heading into the last battle, as well as his avoidance of Rand. While Jordan's Mat would certainly voice complaints and drag his feet, there was never any hesitation in helping his friends.

[Linnile]

You know, I wonder if it's the simple fact that I haven't read it more than once or twice (I might even be blind) but I didn't really notice a change in the style of writing between Sanderson and Jordan. Then again, I did listen to the audiobooks later in the series and maybe that's why I didn't catch all the changes in the characters.

[Chivalry]

6 hours ago, Linnile said:

You know, I wonder if it's the simple fact that I haven't read it more than once or twice (I might even be blind) but I didn't really notice a change in the style of writing between Sanderson and Jordan. Then again, I did listen to the audiobooks later in the series and maybe that's why I didn't catch all the changes in the characters.

I do think Sanderson was less subtle. Not sure if that's because the series had become so unwieldy that he just needed to bring it to a conclusion.

[Stedding Tofu]

I struggled with Sanderson's take on Mat.  Since FoH and forming The Band of The Red Hand Mat has grown up and accepted responsibility, even if he complains every step of the way.

 

The characterization just felt off in a lot of moments: e.g. too confrontational or dismissive to the Aes Sedai approaching Hinderstap, too crass in his letter to Elayne, etc.. and the attempt to turn him into a prankster seemed a mistake,  He has grown up but BS has him giving Joline sweetbuns laced with dye and pelting Perrin with pebbles before showing him he has caught a badger in a sack, the kind of frivolous and immature mischief he has grown out of.  Plus he seemed to decide to head to Ebou Dar because it was as far away as he could get from Rand.  I just can't make sense of him giving up his eye to rescue Moiraine and then practically abandoning The Band either.

 

I get that Mat needs to bring the Seanchan to The Last Battle and maybe this is how RJ intended it but the biggy for me is his identification with the Seanchan because he loves Tuon.  Really?  Mat, who blew the Horn of Valere at Falme to defeat the Seanchan is now one of them?  I mean, Knotai, The Prince of The Ravens, consort to The Empress Fortuona (may she live forever), and proud owner of a captive Sharan damane.  Mat's sister, Bode, is training to be Aes Sedai.  How exactly will she or Nynaeve react to this (provided Tuon doesn't whip an a'dam on them and break them first)?

 

I know Mat isn't big on thinking through the consequences of his actions but surely he has to think about this kind of thing occasionally?

[Asthereal]

19 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

... I just can't make sense of him giving up his eye to rescue Moiraine ...

 

To be fair, Mat's a smart man, and it's not that big of a stretch to assume that he figured out that "losing half the light of the world in order to save the world" means that Moiraine will have a pivotal role in the victory of the Light, so this rescue attempt must succeed.

But perhaps Sanderson should have added that realization in word, so it's more clear. I didn't need it, though.

 

Your remarks about the Mat and Tuon romance are on point for sure, but romance clearly wasn't Jordan's strong point, so I'd say it makes a tad more sense to edge blame in his direction than to blame Sanderson for mishandling the results.

Mat meeting Perrin again after ages and immediately pulling a prank on him actually felt natural to me. Sure, he's grown up a lot. But he hasn't seen his friend in ages, and defaulting back to the old status quo makes quite a bit of sense to me. I've seen it happen before IRL. ? 

[Stedding Tofu]

55 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

To be fair, Mat's a smart man, and it's not that big of a stretch to assume that he figured out that "losing half the light of the world in order to save the world" means that Moiraine will have a pivotal role in the victory of the Light, so this rescue attempt must succeed.

 

Oh, I agree.  What I meant was there is, for me, a disconnect between the Mat who has gained enough maturity and responsibility to undertake an impossible rescue mission and sacrifice his eye in the process and the Mat who then decides to head to Ebou Dar as it's as far from Rand as he can get, leaving Talmanes to lead The Band in his place.

 

The first action is who Mat has become, the second is who he was around FoH and the battle of Cairhien. I know having characters in conflict and torn between duty and heart's desire is pretty necessary but the balance just felt off in Mat to me.

 

The badger in the sack on the Green is the Mat of his childhood who didn't have a care in the world.  He's just killed (sort of) The Gholam and is about to rescue Moiraine so it felt to me that Sanderson wanted something light-hearted and roguish to capture the essence of Mat but came up short (refers to cheat sheet: dice, drink, women, swearing, prankster - "hmm, what would he do?").

 

I read BS Mat thinking he was trying too hard to find humorous things for Mat to do that made me notice the switch from RJ: the character back stories he writes out, the sweetbuns for Joline, the overly brusque note to Elayne, the captured badger.  These don't feel like what RJ would have written to me.  It's a minor complaint at most but it jumped out at me first and second time reading.

[Blackbyrd]

On 4/28/2022 at 9:00 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

Oh, I agree.  What I meant was there is, for me, a disconnect between the Mat who has gained enough maturity and responsibility to undertake an impossible rescue mission and sacrifice his eye in the process and the Mat who then decides to head to Ebou Dar as it's as far from Rand as he can get, leaving Talmanes to lead The Band in his place.

 

The first action is who Mat has become, the second is who he was around FoH and the battle of Cairhien. I know having characters in conflict and torn between duty and heart's desire is pretty necessary but the balance just felt off in Mat to me.

 

The badger in the sack on the Green is the Mat of his childhood who didn't have a care in the world.  He's just killed (sort of) The Gholam and is about to rescue Moiraine so it felt to me that Sanderson wanted something light-hearted and roguish to capture the essence of Mat but came up short (refers to cheat sheet: dice, drink, women, swearing, prankster - "hmm, what would he do?").

 

I read BS Mat thinking he was trying too hard to find humorous things for Mat to do that made me notice the switch from RJ: the character back stories he writes out, the sweetbuns for Joline, the overly brusque note to Elayne, the captured badger.  These don't feel like what RJ would have written to me.  It's a minor complaint at most but it jumped out at me first and second time reading.

 I think this is a really good capture. Sanderson butchered Mat's language but mostly nailed his actions -sans the badger act-

 

From a writing perspective Brandon did not recognize that Mat is a Deadpoolesque  -Marvel reference- type in that he is almost a self aware narrator in the series. Which I would say helps add to the fact that he is certainly the series unreliable narrator. 'I just happened to come across this dude who was talking shit about my homie, then ended him... totally a mistake'

Edited April 30, 2022 by Blackbyrd

[MummyDust]

On 3/27/2022 at 12:34 AM, Chivalry said:

Probably not the most popular take, but I actually did not like Sanderson's Mat as much as Jordan's. I still like Mat...it's hard not too. But for me, although Mat was aways mischievous and a prankster, I never thought of him as a comedian. The tone felt...off at times

 

I remember one scene in which Mat actually writes dialogue for his traveling companions (trying to avoid detection) - that scene struck me as too much of an inside joke, something one might find in a modern buddy comedy. That type of writer elbow nudging felt out of place in Jordan's world.

I didn't mean to imply that Sanderson rended Mat a comedian. I was getting at how his whole being really came together.  My example of his comedic side was just one example of how his character was really forged into the ta'veren he was. I thank you for your comments ?

[Goshawk]

 I think RJ's style was more repetitive, but that deliberation meant intense satisfaction when the characters overcame. BS taking over cut out some of the repetition and got stuff done, but it was almost jarring to me. A lot of characters shed their denseness and inability to communicate, as if Rand's sunshine burned away their reticence, but this seemed unnatural for Mat, Lan, Perrin, and Avienda too. 

   

[Nik]

On 4/15/2022 at 12:01 AM, Chivalry said:

I do think Sanderson was less subtle. Not sure if that's because the series had become so unwieldy that he just needed to bring it to a conclusion.

 

I think that's also just partly Sanderson's writing style. Jordan did a lot with subtext and leaving things for the reader to figure out. Sanderson makes sure you know what he wants you to know. Both have their advantages and drawbacks.