A possibly unpopular opinion on Perrin [Spoliers]

[Jimmyboro]

I cant stand him.

 

As a character on either side, I honestly feel that his entire arc (and all the sub arcs leading from it) could be removed (or even skipped) and it wouldnt affect the story at all.

 

All the others from EF have distinct and specific arcs that lead them and others to TLB, but even with 'dealing with the prophet' section could be left out, chasing his missus all over randland doesnt further the story and if anything distracts from it.

 

The only reason I noticed this was when he is on his 'Honeymoon' and is left out of an entire book (almost)  and on my 3rd/4th readthrough every time I got to a new chapter with 'Perrin sighed cos his missus was being bloody horrible to him again' I would sigh and skip pages until it quit.

 

Ive said this before to friends who read the books, but not many agree.

 

What do you think? Could Perrin be deleted from the story to make it better?

[Dedicated]

Absolutely not. Perrin played some critical roles in the story. He's also just awesome.

 

Edit: my OW match started as I posted this. I'll elaborate a little while waiting on my next game:

 

Perrin was an awesome character. He was the first to go through what Rand went through: struggling with a new part of his identity that isolated him from everything he previously knew.  A lot of what Rand had to deal with Perrin had to struggle with as well except that where Rand wanted to be there for EF he couldn't because the pattern demanded more of him, so that duty fell to Perrin who saved EF from the Trolloc invasion. 

 

Dude there are so many crucial roles he plays for the story. I could go on and on and those who are familiar with my posting style know this. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Dedicated

[Platypus]

Ok... while everyone is entitled to their own opinions, which are still credible, I will have to disagree. Just in The Shadow Rising alone, Perrin makes critical moves in Emond's Field with the Whitecloaks, Faile, Loial, the Aiel with him, Aram, and the list goes on. Also his arc in that book is objectively (kidding) satisfying to watch, from unwilling fighter to a more sure-of-himself leader. Sure he takes a REAL backseat next book, but still. And that's just book four, so yea, Perrin is a little important (And is also a really amazing character in general).

[Chivalry]

I like Perrin, but I could have done without some of his story arc, especially the whole Shaido/ Faile rescue. And some of his redundant thoughts.

 

For example, way too much of...

 

Faile. She was so beautiful. Why did he ever think her (Mr. Potato Head nose and mouth) were too big? They were just right. For a spud. And she was beautiful...

 

 

 

[Chivalry]

What I appreciate most about Perrin, however, is his basic humanity and his refusal to forget or abandon those he loves. Contrast Perrin and his concern for the Two Rivers with Egwene, who left her home/family and never looked back.

[Dedicated]

10 hours ago, Chivalry said:

What I appreciate most about Perrin, however, is his basic humanity and his refusal to forget or abandon those he loves. Contrast Perrin and his concern for the Two Rivers with Egwene, who left her home/family and never looked back.

 

I don't think it's fair to draw this parallel. The pattern demanded certain things from certain people. Rand, for example, really wanted to protect Emmonds Field, but he was afraid showing any affection for his home would make it a target for his enemies (and he was right). It's SYNERGY! Or co-dependency... (edit: and if anyone should be judged for ditching EF it's Mat)

 

Yea and to be honest I skipped a lot of Perrin's story because I was so preoccupied with the other story-lines. I'm looking forward to getting to read the parts I skipped on my second read-through. 

 

And on a random note when that Rasputin song came out and it was on everyone's tiktok then anyone else think for a second it was a song promoting the TV series and it was a song centered on Perrin? "He was big and strong and he's eyes were flaming gold." Until I found that song and heard the whole thing I kept imaging Perrin when I hear that chorus. 

 

So in summation: Perrin is awesome.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Dedicated

[Dedicated]

Tried to edit my post and somehow a new one got created.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Dedicated

[Chivalry]

53 minutes ago, Dedicated said:

 

I don't think it's fair to draw this parallel. The pattern demanded certain things from certain people. Rand, for example, really wanted to protect Emmonds Field, but he was afraid showing any affection for his home would make it a target for his enemies (and he was right). It's SYNERGY! Or co-dependency... (edit: and if anyone should be judged for ditching EF it's Mat)

 

Yea and to be honest I skipped a lot of Perrin's story because I was so preoccupied with the other story-lines. I'm looking forward to getting to read the parts I skipped on my second read-through. 

 

And on a random note when that Rasputin song came out and it was on everyone's tiktok then anyone else think for a second it was a song promoting the TV series and it was a song centered on Perrin? "He was big and strong and he's eyes were flaming gold." Until I found that song and heard the whole thing I kept imaging Perrin when I hear that chorus. 

 

So in summation: Perrin is awesome.

 

Mat thought about going back with Perrin to EF. But when he went through the twisted door, he was told he would die if he didn't go to Ruidean. And Rand had the entire world to care for. That's why he "sent" Perrin.

 

As for Egwene, she never looked back, as far as I remember. Eyes firmly fixed forward.

 

 

[JyP]

I think I can remember somewhere Egwene saying she can't go back to EF right now, that she would need 10 years as Amyrlin before being able to go back to EF - but as an Amyrlin. In the last 3 books. But I may be wrong...

 

As for Perrin : he comes off as very distinct, with slow manners and slow ponderings, but being able to go to the crux of the issues nonetheless. His relationship with Faile however... I understand why it's not to the taste to all readers. But well, there are all kind of relationships described in WoT, so I don't count it against Perrin himself. After all going to mere apprentice blacksmith to ruthless lord to wolf leader to greatest one in Tel'aran'rhiod is metal enough.

[Dedicated]

1 hour ago, Chivalry said:

 

Mat thought about going back with Perrin to EF. But when he went through the twisted door, he was told he would die if he didn't go to Ruidean. And Rand had the entire world to care for. That's why he "sent" Perrin.

 

As for Egwene, she never looked back, as far as I remember. Eyes firmly fixed forward.

 

That's a good point. I had forgotten that Mat tried to go back and it makes sense why Mat had to go to Ruidean. 
 

But still for Egwene she basically defeated a Forsaken. Newly raised, but still one recognized by Shai- I mean.. the Dark One... 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Dedicated

[Juan Farstrider]

So you're saying the wolf-brother is a shaggy dog? I like Perrin as a character, a lot. But he ends up in a holding pattern for a while, both in the world and the dream world, and on injured reserve when it all goes down. Why did Rand need Matt and Perrin? Resiliency? Back up? Why do they have the idea of a "sixth man" in basketball? On a personal note, if you are right and if my characterization of that as "well then he's a 'shaggy dog' tale within the books" then my being a fan of his sounds about right. 

[Andra]

2 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

So you're saying the wolf-brother is a shaggy dog? I like Perrin as a character, a lot. But he ends up in a holding pattern for a while, both in the world and the dream world, and on injured reserve when it all goes down. Why did Rand need Matt and Perrin? Resiliency? Back up? Why do they have the idea of a "sixth man" in basketball? On a personal note, if you are right and if my characterization of that as "well then he's a 'shaggy dog' tale within the books" then my being a fan of his sounds about right. 

Some readers might consider the entire series as a collection of shaggy dog tales.

Given 'The Slog' and drawing the whole thing out to 15 books.  And how many million words?  With how many thousand named characters?

 

I believe most of Perrin's arc with the Prophet and the Shaido could be removed without harming the overall story.  And showing him as an actual leader of the wolves at the Last Battle would have been better than what we see.  And I would have liked to see much more of what the rediscovery of Power-Wrought weapons could have meant.

But I still think he was important to the overall course of events in a way that a shaggy dog wouldn't be.

 

Only Perrin could have told Egwene "it's just a weave" after all her time learning the Dream.  Only Perrin could have simply shrugged off Compulsion to literally save the world.  Those are things that his very nature led to, that no other character could have realistically carried off.

[Pembie]

Perrin is my least favourite character his story with Mesema I found very strange he is meant to be keeping him prisoner making his way back to Rand. but let’s the guy wander around camp it seemed to me anyway 

I guess Perrin plays a big role with the last battle but his quite boring otherwise 

[Juan Farstrider]

19 hours ago, Andra said:

Only Perrin could have told Egwene "it's just a weave" after all her time learning the Dream.  Only Perrin could have simply shrugged off Compulsion to literally save the world.  Those are things that his very nature led to, that no other character could have realistically carried off.

Yes, and I think something along these lines about as many characters as I can. I'd like to think that all the named characters, a detail some would skip over, and all the potential shaggy dog tails in the books are about how we are all integral to each other and each other's lives and our own personal 'arc' or 'journey' such that none if should be dismissed or forgotten if possible. All those details? These are the things that came together to defeat the dark one and his minions. And what's left? All of us to continue those same journeys as best we can together.

Aviendha's vision of the future of her people, really of the fate of the peace after the last battle, has application to our own lives and world in that we have not just ask for peace but work for it and make it and maintain it. Start erasing things with balefire and the whole thing comes apart. To take these thought further, I'd start drifting firmly into spirituality/theology, but I think there is something on those levels in this. Plus he might have gotten paid by the word. 

[Andra]

14 hours ago, Pembie said:

Perrin is my least favourite character his story with Mesema I found very strange he is meant to be keeping him prisoner making his way back to Rand. but let’s the guy wander around camp it seemed to me anyway 

I guess Perrin plays a big role with the last battle but his quite boring otherwise 

Coming up pretty soon from where you are, Perrin finally becomes the leader he needs to be, and learns some valuable skills.  His story becomes considerably less boring.

It could still be better, but he isn't useless any more.

[Andra]

7 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Plus he might have gotten paid by the word. 

?

[Asthereal]

Perrin confronting Masema and then chasing the Shaido, together with Elayne's bid for the Andor throne, were large parts of the slog, and were probably just a bad idea to put into the series. Both storylines are slow and don't move the series forward at all.

 

The problem is that Perrin doesn't have much to do for large parts of the series, which is why his story in books 9 and 10 felt a bit stale. Same goes for Elayne. I think Jordan should have kept the characters more grouped. If Perrin is with Rand, helping him fight his battles, he'll have something to do without needing to introduce entire storylines for him. Same goes for Elayne: just keep her with Egwene for a bit. Elayne's bit for the Andor throne could have been just her showing up as daughter-heir to the throne and everybody just accepting her as queen, and the Shaido could have been definitively defeated at Dumai's Wells. Done.

 

Still, I like Perrin as a character. I just didn't love some of his storylines. So did Sanderson, by the way.

 

Spoiler

That prophet dude is bogging this ending down. Let's get rid of him in the prologue of book 12. Bye!

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Asthereal

[DojoToad]

I love Perrin.  I hate the Faile/Shaido arc.  Maesema arc could have been tightened but overall okay with it - especially like how Faile ended it.  Could have explored more with the White Cloaks maybe.

 

Loved the forging of Mah'alleninir.  Loved the defense of Emond's Field and Faile's bringing in the cavalry.  Though I hated most of his time in the wolf dream, loved how he could counter channelers.  I know some didn't like his relationship with Aram, but I did - even the ending.  Loved how he could shrug off culture like blind obedience to Aes Sedai and Wise Ones.  He was the same person with generals, rulers, peasants, and merchants.

 

Perrin often had tunnel vision (not seeing Aram slip away) and that made him more real for me.  Hated his over-the-top, let the world burn obsession for Faile.  But that is part of the character.  Would I love some of the parts I do without the counter-balance of the parts I hate?

 

Solidly in the keep Perrin camp. ?

[Dedicated]

You know I just had a shower thought. Or an after shower thought. As I was drying off my lithe, muscular body, I thought about how advantageous Perrin's ability wound up being. And really, the only person who could have taken out Slayer. Slayer was mentioned as being prized by the DO. The big C-dawg probably made Perrin as Slayer's counter. But let's not reduce Perrin down to simply a card in the Creator's deck. He's also just awesome. 

[D Dub]

On 3/17/2022 at 3:21 PM, Jimmyboro said:

I honestly feel that his entire arc (and all the sub arcs leading from it) could be removed (or even skipped) and it wouldnt affect the story at all.

 

Yes! I have thought for a long time that if you just cut Perrin out entirely after Lord of Chaos then the series would be better for it

[Stedding Tofu]

I've just finished a series re-read so, while it's still fresh, I want to agree with a  lot of what has been said above.

 

Perrin is deliberately written as good-natured, gentle, loyal and dutiful but also as a slow, deliberate character, thoughtful, cautious: he seems like he would make the perfect family man.  Like all our heroes, he is pushed firmly out of his comfort zone by events - his sudden and confusing wolfbrother abilities, the feud with The Whitecloaks, the need to do the right thing to regain The Horn of Valere and help Rand in TGH / TDR, the confusing and overpowering nature of his feelings for his first (and only) love, Faile.

 

He weathers all this pretty well and his storyline in TSR when he becomes an effective leader in The Two Rivers is tub-thumping satisfying.  He galvanizes opposition to The Whitecloaks' bullying, frees the Luhans and Cauthons, and ultimately defeats Slayer (Isam/Luc) in Tel'aran'rhiod and leads the defeat of the Trolloc invasion, all while dealing with the personal tragedy, catastrophe really, of the death of every single member of his extended family.  Perrin has well and truly arrived, weathered his personal and identity crises and matured into a Leader.

 

Unfortunately Perrin then plateaus and even regresses.  Yes, he rescues Rand at Dumai's Wells but his chapters are mostly about Faile and his confusion about how to manage her temper and keep his marriage on an even keel given Berelain's behaviour and Faile's instinctive jealousy.  Realistic?  Yes.  Interesting?  Not for me.  It's like pulling teeth: when Perrin is sent on his long mission to greet Alliandre and Masema and gain their allegiance to Rand, Berelain is helpfully sent along to give Perrin and the reader a headache.

 

When we see him in these middle books his personal crisis is back, his confidence is shot by Faile's capture and his admission that he would give anything up to save her (let's not forget chopping the hand off the captured Shaido warrior and the threat to turn him into a quadriplegic), and he even seems to have rejected his contact with the wolves as if he fears turning into another Noam despite talking to wolves when he needs to, not least in following Rand towards Dumai's Wells.  Despite defeating Slayer in The Wolf Dream in TSR he appears as a complete novice there who Hopper has to teach from scratch.  And that's a big problem for me: it's as if TSR never happened and Perrin is thrown back to the start of his development arc.  A crisis is one thing but I feel like I've read all this before and the character is now going through it all again.  It's stale and repetitive for me.

 

When he finally weathers his second crisis, recovering Faile, accepting his duty as a Leader and Lord, acknowledging and accepting his wolfbrother identity, settling his feud with The Whitecloaks, breaking away from Berelain, he emerges at the end of the story as a more rounded satisfying character.  He does pin together the Ghealdan-Two Rivers-Whitecloak-Altaran/Amadician refugee alliance and bring a sizeable army to Tarmon Gai'don.  The army is delegated to Tam for The Last Battle while he and Gaul keep Slayer from killing Rand but it's creation is Perrin's achievement.

 

The final bit of his character rounding out is during The Last Battle, when he knows Faile is missing, he sticks to his duty of protecting Rand and ensuring the battle is won, rather than chasing off after her.  Of course he gets his reward when he finds her alive afterwards.

 

In short: early Perrin (1-4) is good, middle Perrin (6-11/12) is pretty close to unreadable, late Perrin (11/12-14) is satisfying.  I like the guy but the middle of the story does him no favours and his importance to the story overall is only really revealed in AMoL when he saves Rand by killing Slayer and leads the Spirit Wolves out of Tel'aran'rhiod into the real world to destroy the Darkhounds of The Wild Hunt at Shayol Ghul.  That moment, when he realises that not all the heroes of the horn have to be men and why the spirit wolves have been calling to Young Bull to lead them, is quite beautiful.

[Stedding Tofu]

On 3/18/2022 at 6:51 PM, Juan Farstrider said:

I like Perrin as a character, a lot. But he ends up in a holding pattern for a while, both in the world and the dream world, and on injured reserve when it all goes down. Why did Rand need Matt and Perrin? Resiliency? Back up?

 

Why does Rand need Mat and Perrin?  For two reasons, I think.

 

First, Rand's idea that as he is The Prophesied One who must do everything is soundly debunked in the series by the relentless pressure of events and by The Pattern itself, in that it thrown out three ta'veren for a reason.  Right from TEotW Min tells him of the viewing of darkness and motes of light that is greater when Rand is surrounded by most of the key characters (Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, Moiraine, Lan, Thom) so it's broader than the three ta'veren but they are key. 

 

In this sense they are pivotal in bringing armies to Tarmon Gai'don: Perrin in building the Ghealdan-Mayenne-Two Rivers-Whitecloak-Amadician/Altaran refugee army; and Mat, first, in enabling the Seanchan alliance by a pivotal role in Rand's second meeting with Tuon in Ebou Dar (and in defusing tensions in Tuon's later meeting with Egwene in Arafel), and, second, in deciding the war strategy after the betrayal of The Great Captains and leading the Armies of The Light on The Field of Merrilor.

 

Second, they both play a vital and unique role at Shayol Ghul in Tarmon Gai'don.  By unique I mean no one else could do these things. 

 

1) Perrin places the dreamspike to prevent Slayer shifting into the cavern and killing Rand and kills Slayer  himself by shifting into and out of Tel'aran'rhiod the way Slayer can to catch him.  Only Perrin can fight Slayer this way. 

 

2) Once Mat and Olver turn up and Olver blows the Horn of Valere, Perrin leads the spirit wolves out of The Wolf Dream to defeat the Darkhounds of The Wild Hunt.  Could someone else have done this?  I don't know, perhaps Elyas but they seem to be waiting for someone to lead them and asking Young Bull in The Wolf Dream to lead them in The Last Hunt.  As he can enter and exit The Wolf Dream in the flesh while Elyas cannot I think it has to be Perrin. 

 

3)  Perrin kills Lanfear right at the moment she expects him to help her kill Moiraine and Nynaeve, thus ensuring Rand's defeat.  Could someone else have escaped her compulsion to do this?  Possibly one of the three Wise One Dreamwalkers, Amys, Bair or Melaine or a Dreamer like Egwene but, given Perrin is the only one Lanfear would have chosen to work through, he is the only one who could possibly have broken free.  Any other man would have remained caught.

 

4) Mat kills Padan Fain / Mordeth / Shaisam in Thakan'dar.  Fain is some kind of next level monstrosity, with hundreds if not thousands of dead Trollocs as drones and anyone who comes into the mist that he generates dies.  He is determined to envelop Thakan'dar and kill Rand until Mat kills him.  Mat is immune to the mist, having been infected before by The Dagger of Shadar Logoth.  No one else could have done this.