WOT Season 1 and Beyond

[Skipp]

26 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Inspired by @Skipp 's post, and one from @ashi in the full season review, here's a new one. I've been kind of improving about how I feel about the show being so drastically skewed towards women at the start.  Because if you think about the character arcs of the girls (as opposed to their plot arcs), they are basically over mid series, and while they have Capstone (good word) character moments later, they aren't moments of growth, they are moments of affirmation.

 

When Nynaeve breaks her block (thanks Moggy - we'd have that out of you no matter how loud you scream indeed), and she joyfully channels, that's it, she is herself, and exactly who she is at the end of AMOL. Her being raised is a great affirmation of that, but it isn't a change, it is an acceptance

 

For Egwene, I see her becoming completely herself when she continues to meet her toh after being summoned to Salidar. For all the big stuff she does after that point, she does not change as a character. Her moment of affirmation is then her fight with Mesaana in the Tower, but it is the core strength of the Aiel that takes the Seat, and the Amyrlin who does the rest .

 

Elayne does mature and settle down some, which is to the good. Aviendha's arc is wonderful, but kind of understated. The other secondary women - Tuon, Min, Siuan, Moiraine - don't really have character growth arcs at all.  I like Egeanin's, but I'm not even sure we're getting her.

 

OTOH, barring disaster, the boys should dominate a lot more of the latter part of the series from a growth perspective, and the culmination of their character arcs are a lot more visually spectacular. Of course the ultimate growth arc is Rand's with Veins of Gold, but Perrin's forging the hammer and allowing the banners to stay up, and Mat and Thom - who I assume will be really anti AS at some point - rescuing Moiraine are really the last major character growth moments. Even the final character growth moment in the entire series is a male's - Logain.

 

With all that, it's why I can see them putting so much more emphasis on the girls at the start - to make their mid-series climaxes (ugh - no double entendre intended) as impactful as possible. I'm not saying I trust this production team to pull it off, but if they are looking at telling the series as a single story, this could be a big  reason why.

 

Well said and well thought out.  We don't know where the show will head but this is some solid theorizing.

 

As I have said before it is very exciting being able to theorize about Wheel of Time again!

[VooDooNut]

5 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

except its a flawed argument. its rooted in the fact that the story will follow the books. that's already not the case as seen by season 1. so there is literally nothing supporting his argument.

 

Just now, Cauthonfan4 said:

really? you didn't see them utterly fail to develop the 3 boys at all during season 1?

provided they can actually write well. which I can't see that seeing as they have already power creeped the crap out of the show.

and so far the 3 boys have zero character.

and what good character storys have we seen from the boys so far? nothing.

They literally spent the entire FIRST SEASON TRASHING THE MEN TO UPLIFT WOMEN.

what happened to the yin and yang? what happened to the men and women are equal but different? i saw NOTHING OF THE SORT.

Just a friendly reminder that this thread is not the place for rants against the show. Plenty of other threads around for posting content like that. Please take conversations like this elsewhere.

[Cauthonfan4]

4 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Just a friendly reminder that this thread is not the place for rants against the show. Plenty of other threads around for posting content like that. Please take conversations like this elsewhere.

I am merely pointing out that his argument is flawed. you all sit there and pretend its a great theory but their is zero evidence to support his theory. quite to the contrary.

 

his claim is based on following the source material.

show me literally anything in season 1 that doesn't include names that supports we are following the source material so closely you actually believe they will stop developing the female characters before they stop developing the male characters?

Edited January 8, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[VooDooNut]

1 minute ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

I am merely pointing out that his argument is flawed. you all sit there and pretend its a great theory but their is zero evidence to support his claim.

 

his claim is based on following the source material.

show me literally anything in season 1 that doesn't include names that supports we are following the source material so closely you actually believe they will stop developing the female characters before they stop developing the male characters?

No. That is not the purpose of this thread. Thank you for following the thread outline and keeping off-topic posts out of this thread.

[Cauthonfan4]

3 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

No. That is not the purpose of this thread. Thank you for following the thread outline and keeping off-topic posts out of this thread.

so pointing out the flaws in an argument isn't allowed? guess I'll leave the chorus fest alone then.  have fun tooting each others horns with everyone yessing each other.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Skipp]

18 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

I am merely pointing out that his argument is flawed. you all sit there and pretend its a great theory but their is zero evidence to support his theory. quite to the contrary.

 

his claim is based on following the source material.

show me literally anything in season 1 that doesn't include names that supports we are following the source material so closely you actually believe they will stop developing the female characters before they stop developing the male characters?

 

The show is following the source material in broad strokes.

 

I posted this in another thread but it is relevant to this.

 

Quote

While we disagree about the quality of season 1 it still does hit the major plot points of tEotW.  Trollocs attack the TR.  Our heroes flee and encoutner Whitecloaks for the first time.  They are forced into SL and get separated.  They meet back up in a major city and meet Loial.  They learn information relating to the Eye and leave said city through the waygates and head to Fal'Dara.  They head through the blight and Rand faces "the DO".  The details are very different when looked at closely but the road map is similar.

 

So based on how season 1 went I presume we will continue to see the major story marks hit just the way we get to those marks might be different.

[Ralph]

53 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

really? you didn't see them utterly fail to develop the 3 boys at all during season 1?

 

 

Which of the three boys developed more in book 1?

[Cauthonfan4]

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Which of the three boys developed more in book 1?

the boys in book 1.

 

got weapons training with lan, among other lessons

mat and rand got training from a gleeman.

perrin learned about his being a wolfbrother first hand.

rand had his interactions with people in caemlyn, teaching him more about the world.

 

and that's just some broad strokes.

 

besides - the girls are already well developed beyond where they were in book 1. why couldn't you develop the boys the same way you developed the girls?

 

 

[Jaysen Gore]

13 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

really? you didn't see them utterly fail to develop the 3 boys at all during season 1?

provided they can actually write well. which I can't see that seeing as they have already power creeped the crap out of the show.

and so far the 3 boys have zero character. there development is almost nill. in many ways Mat went BACKWARDS. 

and what good character storys have we seen from the boys so far? nothing.

They literally spent the entire FIRST SEASON TRASHING THE MEN TO UPLIFT WOMEN.

what happened to the yin and yang? what happened to the men and women are equal but different? i saw NOTHING OF THE SORT.

I don't believe you'll accept anything that involves giving the showrunners any kind of a benefit of the doubt, because your position on the show is obvious and your mind is set in cuendillar, but let me give this one try:

 

Proposition 1 - The heart of WoT books is about the balance between Male and Female, and Light and Dark (book and series)

Proposition 2 - the World at the beginning of the Wheel of Time is drastically out of balance. (book and series)

Proposition 3 - Character arcs for all of the mains - males and females - run for 10-11 books (5-6 seasons)

Proposition 4 - There is no character growth in season 8 / book 14; it will be all plot (except Logain).

Proposition 5 - Most of season 1 was about world building and concept introductions, with no actual character arc movement during season 1, except where they actually moved characters backwards - Perrin, Mat, Nynaeve, Logain, Moiraine.

The show has decided to emphasize how out of balance the world is (prop 2) by overemphasizing the women, shoving the men into the background, and making them more subservient. The in-world setting and the show itself now has farther to go to meet proposition 1.

 

Since in any medium, you can't progress all major character and plot arcs (prop 3) at the exact same time, they are offsetting the character curves - they WILL NOT start or progress at the same time. This allows the show to:

1. Avoid characters not growing mid-series (cough, Perrin slog, cough).

2. Avoid character arcs taking too long and the audience getting frustrated at the lack of growth (Rand, Nynaeve, Elayne)

3. Spread the major character arc climaxes out across seasons 5 (Nyn), 6 (Egwene, Perrin) and 7 (Mat, Rand)- male and female- giving them enough time to shine, their conclusions to have been emotionally earned, and to provide the show with epic moments that can serve as the seasonal milestones.

 

Since starting the women's character arcs first aligns with the overemphasis on women at the start, we will get the women's conclusions in the middle, instead of the end. And by the end of the series, it will be the Boys' growth and plotlines that will dominate the narrative and show's runtime.

 

In season 8 / AMOL, I would have epic moments 5 or 6 : 1 male to female. In book 14, aside from Egwene, what woman accomplishes anything epic? Important, sure, but epic?

 

The cold reality is that in the same way that characters disappeared for entire books, they will do so in the series as well. But instead of being book 8 of 14, for a couple of them, it was season 1 of 8, and given Perrin and Rand's arcs end later in the books - and are really more important - keeping those climax moments where they are means starting their arcs later in the series.

 

I'm not saying that's what they're doing; I'm saying based on what they've shown, it's what they could be going for.  But as I said, I doubt you're open to that possibility.

[Lethira the second]

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Inspired by @Skipp 's post, and one from @ashi in the full season review, here's a new one. I've been kind of improving about how I feel about the show being so drastically skewed towards women at the start.  Because if you think about the character arcs of the girls (as opposed to their plot arcs), they are basically over mid series, and while they have Capstone (good word) character moments later, they aren't moments of growth, they are moments of affirmation.

 

When Nynaeve breaks her block (thanks Moggy - we'd have that out of you no matter how loud you scream indeed), and she joyfully channels, that's it, she is herself, and exactly who she is at the end of AMOL. Her being raised is a great affirmation of that, but it isn't a change, it is an acceptance

 

For Egwene, I see her becoming completely herself when she continues to meet her toh after being summoned to Salidar. For all the big stuff she does after that point, she does not change as a character. Her moment of affirmation is then her fight with Mesaana in the Tower, but it is the core strength of the Aiel that takes the Seat, and the Amyrlin who does the rest .

 

Elayne does mature and settle down some, which is to the good. Aviendha's arc is wonderful, but kind of understated. The other secondary women - Tuon, Min, Siuan, Moiraine - don't really have character growth arcs at all.  I like Egeanin's, but I'm not even sure we're getting her.

 

OTOH, barring disaster, the boys should dominate a lot more of the latter part of the series from a growth perspective, and the culmination of their character arcs are a lot more visually spectacular. Of course the ultimate growth arc is Rand's with Veins of Gold, but Perrin's forging the hammer and allowing the banners to stay up, and Mat and Thom - who I assume will be really anti AS at some point - rescuing Moiraine are really the last major character growth moments. Even the final character growth moment in the entire series is a male's - Logain.

 

With all that, it's why I can see them putting so much more emphasis on the girls at the start - to make their mid-series climaxes (ugh - no double entendre intended) as impactful as possible. I'm not saying I trust this production team to pull it off, but if they are looking at telling the series as a single story, this could be a big  reason why.

I really like your thinking, however I'm mindful of a couple of things...

 

1. Promise.  If Season 1 and for arguments sake 2 are heavily focused on the girls, you are promising a show that focuses on the female leads.  If this gets 180'ed and the boys become the focus you've reneged on that promise.  Some viewers will stay, yes but for those who came for the female driven tone; we'll I don't see them hanging around if their favourites get yeeted into the background.

 

2. In order for Veins of Gold or Forging of the hammer to have any sort of impact, we need to see the characters grow towards those moments.  To my non reader friend, Perrin is 'the bloke who fridged his wife' and Rand is 'the bloke wandering round with a bow'.  That's not a good sign.

 

I know no one on the team are concerned with my thoughts or opinions, I think they need a serious rethink if they're going to get this to a conclusion.  If it's supposed to be an ensemble piece, let the other characters shine.  

 

They need to stop holding back information to force an 'aha' moment.  The revelation that Rand is the Dragon reborn and back filling the story went off like a damp squib.  It's a technique that works well if used sparingly, the same with the dead/not dead character.  It seems like the writer only have a handful of tools in their arsenal, (all of which are in dire need of sharpening) and they rely too heavily on those, when something else would have been far more applicable.

 

[EmreY]

2 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

I really like your thinking, however I'm mindful of a couple of things...

 

1. Promise.  If Season 1 and for arguments sake 2 are heavily focused on the girls, you are promising a show that focuses on the female leads.  If this gets 180'ed and the boys become the focus you've reneged on that promise.  Some viewers will stay, yes but for those who came for the female driven tone; we'll I don't see them hanging around if their favourites get yeeted into the background.

 

2. In order for Veins of Gold or Forging of the hammer to have any sort of impact, we need to see the characters grow towards those moments.  To my non reader friend, Perrin is 'the bloke who fridged his wife' and Rand is 'the bloke wandering round with a bow'.  That's not a good sign.

 

I know no one on the team are concerned with my thoughts or opinions, I think they need a serious rethink if they're going to get this to a conclusion.  If it's supposed to be an ensemble piece, let the other characters shine.  

 

They need to stop holding back information to force an 'aha' moment.  The revelation that Rand is the Dragon reborn and back filling the story went off like a damp squib.  It's a technique that works well if used sparingly, the same with the dead/not dead character.  It seems like the writer only have a handful of tools in their arsenal, (all of which are in dire need of sharpening) and they rely too heavily on those, when something else would have been far more applicable.

 

 

Very fair comments but we have a lot of story to cover yet, so the opportunities will be there.  Whether they use them is another matter.

[Cauthonfan4]

10 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Very fair comments but we have a lot of story to cover yet, so the opportunities will be there.  Whether they use them is another matter.

but as Lethira said, it is going to be a huge tone shift if all of a sudden they take the women in season 2 and sideline them as badly as they did the men in season 1. that, as is pointed out, can easily cause backlash against sidelining the female characters.

whereas if they just developed both equally there is no backlash about the situation to begin with.

[Jaysen Gore]

3 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

but as Lethira said, it is going to be a huge tone shift if all of a sudden they take the women in season 2 and sideline them as badly as they did the men in season 1. that, as is pointed out, can easily cause backlash against sidelining the female characters.

whereas if they just developed both equally there is no backlash about the situation to begin with.

But it won't be season 2...it will be season 8, and align with the books.  And that "sidelining" will be a natural result of their character and plot arcs moving into balance, and won't be anywhere near as jarring as season 1. But as I said, part of what I think they were going for in their decisions to overemphasize women in episode 1 was to get a "this is wrong!" reaction

[Lethira the second]

I remain hopeful that they can turn things around and make use of the opportunities, however in the fickle world of TV you need to keep the viewership numbers up.  If this doesn't perform/isn't performing as well as the money men want, they'll simply cancel it.  'Watch and Find Out' or 'Wait and it will come good' are not really an option in that environment.

[VooDooNut]

7 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

I remain hopeful that they can turn things around and make use of the opportunities, however in the fickle world of TV you need to keep the viewership numbers up.  If this doesn't perform/isn't performing as well as the money men want, they'll simply cancel it.  'Watch and Find Out' or 'Wait and it will come good' are not really an option in that environment.

I completely agree, but speculative concern of what will or won't happen (edit: regarding Amazon executives) isn't very helpful in the present. We'll just have to see how the show develops from here, but I'm tentatively optimistic. 

 

Edit: In hindsight, I don't really like how I worded the above, but I share your concerns, this is still about money (for some) after all...but I hope for the best.

Edited January 9, 2022 by VooDooNut
added clarifier

[ForsakenPotato]

Not sure that they have promised the future seasons of show will all be about women any more than Robert Jordan promised the whole series would be about Rand just because the first book was mainly his POV. In later books there's large stretches where he is mostly in the background, but I never felt cheated or misled because I cared about the other characters a lot too. As long as whoever is onscreen is interesting, that's going to be far more important to the vast majority of viewers than if they are male or female. Representation matters, but I don't think for most TV watchers it's the number one priority. Besides, a series with broad themes about the balance of power across genders wasn't ever going to satisfy viewers who only want to see women (or only want to see men) in the end anyway.

 

I totally respect the feeling that lots of favorite characters didn't have the moments we wanted them to in Season 1. I missed Elyas, he was one of my favorite parts of book 1. I loved TV Loial but he only got a few lines -- I wanted to see him and Rand playing stones in the inn for example. I wanted to see Rand play the Jazz flute at an inn like that restaurant scene in Anchorman. But I also enjoyed seeing Moiraine and Lan have more development in season 1 compared to book 1 (not to mention Logain and Siuan who weren't even in book 1) because I also think they are fantastic characters. I get bummed out by the comments that seem to imply we should spend less time developing the main female characters so that we can spend more time on the main male characters. What if we just spent more time developing all the main characters of all genders, and maybe less time with characters who get killed almost immediately (Steppin, Agelmar, Amalise) or who don't matter much for the plot right now (looking at you, Liandrin Sedai)?

Edited January 9, 2022 by ForsakenPotato
typo

[EmreY]

Meanwhile:

 

Quote

Production has been suspended on Paramount+ series Star Trek: Picard after more than four dozen cast and crew members tested positive for Covid... The series is just the latest forced to temporarily halt production because of a recent surge in Covid cases.

 

Link here

[Spiritweaver1]

On 1/8/2022 at 10:15 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

Inspired by @Skipp 's post, and one from @ashi in the full season review, here's a new one. I've been kind of improving about how I feel about the show being so drastically skewed towards women at the start.  Because if you think about the character arcs of the girls (as opposed to their plot arcs), they are basically over mid series, and while they have Capstone (good word) character moments later, they aren't moments of growth, they are moments of affirmation.

 

When Nynaeve breaks her block (thanks Moggy - we'd have that out of you no matter how loud you scream indeed), and she joyfully channels, that's it, she is herself, and exactly who she is at the end of AMOL. Her being raised is a great affirmation of that, but it isn't a change, it is an acceptance

 

For Egwene, I see her becoming completely herself when she continues to meet her toh after being summoned to Salidar. For all the big stuff she does after that point, she does not change as a character. Her moment of affirmation is then her fight with Mesaana in the Tower, but it is the core strength of the Aiel that takes the Seat, and the Amyrlin who does the rest .

 

Elayne does mature and settle down some, which is to the good. Aviendha's arc is wonderful, but kind of understated. The other secondary women - Tuon, Min, Siuan, Moiraine - don't really have character growth arcs at all.  I like Egeanin's, but I'm not even sure we're getting her.

 

OTOH, barring disaster, the boys should dominate a lot more of the latter part of the series from a growth perspective, and the culmination of their character arcs are a lot more visually spectacular. Of course the ultimate growth arc is Rand's with Veins of Gold, but Perrin's forging the hammer and allowing the banners to stay up, and Mat and Thom - who I assume will be really anti AS at some point - rescuing Moiraine are really the last major character growth moments. Even the final character growth moment in the entire series is a male's - Logain.

 

With all that, it's why I can see them putting so much more emphasis on the girls at the start - to make their mid-series climaxes (ugh - no double entendre intended) as impactful as possible. I'm not saying I trust this production team to pull it off, but if they are looking at telling the series as a single story, this could be a big  reason why.

Great new perspective.  I might just add that there is a possibility that we see Moraine killed off at the docks, perhaps not as per the books.  In this scenario she would be replaced by another name actress in the role of Cadsuane and you would see her and Rand meeting earlier with perhaps a different relationship in the beginning.  I am also interested to see how much love the Aiel wise women get and the portrayed relationship between them and the so-called experts the Aes Sedai.  If I could order up my own changes I would bring in some Aiel background stuff and ensure I covered Ji and Toh.  I appreciated how, in the books the wise women take the captured Aes Sedai in hand and teach them humility amongst a host of other things.  

[Jaysen Gore]

4 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Great new perspective.  I might just add that there is a possibility that we see Moraine killed off at the docks, perhaps not as per the books.  In this scenario she would be replaced by another name actress in the role of Cadsuane and you would see her and Rand meeting earlier with perhaps a different relationship in the beginning.  I am also interested to see how much love the Aiel wise women get and the portrayed relationship between them and the so-called experts the Aes Sedai.  If I could order up my own changes I would bring in some Aiel background stuff and ensure I covered Ji and Toh.  I appreciated how, in the books the wise women take the captured Aes Sedai in hand and teach them humility amongst a host of other things.  

I like this, and I'm not above wishing her dead to reduce the number of fake out resurrections in this show, of which there have already been at least 3 too many. BUT...don't forget that Moiraine also works with Egwene at Merrilor.  So even if Caddy is being Rand's, well caddy, you still need to build a trust relationship with Egwene as well. Hence, I expect the scene to occur more or less as written.

 

And don't worry about the Aiel; we're going to get lots of them, and if Rafe is smart, he's on the phone with Denis Villneuve right figuring out which elements of Ji'e'toh look the least like Fremen culture, so he can emphasize them.