If WOT was really Grim Dark :)

[Scarloc99]

So a little more light hearted then many of the other posts here recently. 
 

The term Grim Dark comes from the warhammer 40K game and books created by games workshop. A universe where there is pretty much no hope, where humans spend there lives wondering if tomorrow they will be killed by all manner of threats, dangers, their own government, dragged off to have their souls sucked from their body to fuel a long dead emaciated corpse or just die of hunger due to food not being provided because of an administration error. 

 

I find it funny when people refer to Rafe making WOT Grim Dark because it is no where near it. 
 

So I thought I would do a thread to see how grim dark we can make the WOT universe. 

The rules, the main story threads can’t change too much, you just have to make the world as dark as possible and, the dark one can’t just “win”. 

 

To get us going. 
 

Edmonds field 

By the age of 10 every main character has seen at least 5 family members ripped apart and killed in front of them. 
Morraine kidnaps the boys forcefully killing any remaining family. 
The Trollocs kill anyone who is left and burn down the villiage. Morraine leaves them to it having got what she came for. 

The White Tower

Anyone who fails training is kept as a slave 

 

Seanchan 

Channelers are chained, collard, gagged and have their legs removed so they can never run away.

 

Aiel 

Cannibals who eat those they defeat in combat. 

Male Channelers 

Use of the one power makes them slowly gain physical side effects, think like the sith 

 

So how would you make WOT truly grimdark, be as serious or amusing as you want but no reference to what Rafe has done please, this is meant to be tongue in cheek fun not yet another place to vent your anger at what you perceive as problems with the actual show. 

[elteryon]

Mat killed the Grinwells. He makes it back to Emonds Field and his sisters only to have the darkness inside him take over. He kills them too.

 

Loial takes the Shadar Logoth dagger from Fain. He brings it back to Stedding Shangtai. Mashadar consumes the stedding. In his madness Loial travels the Ways to every stedding trailing Mashadar in his wake. Erith is turned to dust.

 

I feel unclean now.

[KakitaOCU]

Just making the comparison to how GoT runs...

Moraine would have died at the eye.

The Whitecloak treatment of Egwene and Perrin I choose not to think about and wish I hadn't seen enough reality to understand.

Emond's field would have been brought to the ground as you pointed out already.

Shadar Logoth would have killed Mat and Mordeth would be in Mat's body.  Or to make it worse Mat would be inside in a "I have no mouth but I must scream" situation.

 

[Scarloc99]

You know again I never really saw GOT as GrimDark exactly lol, 

Some more. 

The Sword Of Callandor, the women that helps weild it will die while using it. 

The taint is cleansed, but then every man that can channel goes out full on revenge mission trying to destroy anything they can to do with the Aeis Sedai 

 

[DreadParrot]

The deeper into madness a man falls the more powerful becomes. Attempting to shield any man causes the taint to siphon into you, causing women to become corrupted as well if they attempt to shield. Once learned all combat is essence a fight to the death because attempting to take them alive simply creates more problems. 
 

The Ogier are hostile and use their treesinging to navigate the Ways and direct Black Wind at their enemies.

 

the Whitecloaks are substanially more powerful and universally…not respected but required. They bind their snowy white cloaks with terangreal that cause weaves to dissolve ala Matt’s amulet. 
 

anyone who inadvertently Dreams can end up in the Finn Realm and be taken captive

 

The Forsaken are immeasurably more powerful than any mortal channelers due to their connection to the Dark One. Only infighting amongst themselves allows for the world to function. 
 

The Wolves in the Dream World are angry. They prowl seeking the souls shadowspawn and will emerge to stalk Trollocs then vanish back into Telarnrhiod. 
 

surviving a wound from a Trolloc or Fade weapon simply transforms the survivor into a trolloc themself. 
 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by DreadParrot
Added few more elements

[bryce0110]

1 hour ago, DreadParrot said:

The deeper into madness a man falls the more powerful becomes. Attempting to shield any man causes the taint to siphon into you, causing women to become corrupted as well if they attempt to shield. Once learned all combat is essence a fight to the death because attempting to take them alive simply creates more problems.

This one is actually super interesting. I'm curious how the story would go if this were the case. I'd read that.

[UOweTamASword]

I don’t think grimdark has to have the precise definition of anything that’s as dark and hopeless as Warhammer 40k.

 

When people say the show has gone darker they mean on the spectrum between where the books sit and Warhammer, the show has taken notable steps in the darker direction.

 

I don’t think there’s any debating that a lot of innocence and wholesomeness has been stripped from the main characters. If you want to argue the semantics of precisely defining “grimdark”, that’s really just ignoring the forest for the trees.

[7th age]

Urg, this is too depressing??

 

Maybe better play a rainbow fairy game? Makes for a better mood ?

 

The DARK is an allegory for Cocoa and the DO means to kill humanity by inducing Diabetes.

All the AS are strict teachers and dietician that want to zealously try to protect the world from candy.

At the last battle Rand realizes that chocolate is needed for  happiness and casts a great spell allowing us to to gobble as much candy as we like without ever incurring health problems.

[ArrylT]

Having just recently watched Ep1 of S1 of The Witcher, and hopefully understanding the perspective shared about Warhammer 40K - I can now try to have a scale of which to compare "grimdark" between WoT, GOT, and so forth (ex: The Boys).

 

Right now with the OP description of Warhammer as 10 right now I'd say (personal subjective)

 

0 He-Man / GI Joe / Mask (other cartoons)

1 Chronicles of Narnia

2 Once Upon A Time

3 Wheel of Time Books

4 Wheel of Time Show

5 Hannibal

6 The Boys

7 Game of Thrones

8 The Witcher

9 The Walking Dead

10 Warhammer

 

    

Edited January 1, 2022 by ArrylT

[Wassup]

Any time a man channels it brings up one of the bubbles of evil from the books affecting an area three times as large.

If a man channels through Callandor, he must kill someone he knows before he can release the power flowing through it. 
 

[AdamA]

The books are already grim dark. There is a scene of stone automatons stealing a woman away from her screaming baby to temper a new sword by taking her soul. Between that, the gholam tearing people's limbs and heads off with his bare hands, the Asha'man exploding the Shaido, the Shaido tying people up and leaving them naked in the snow, everything Graendal does to her servants. Rand having to poison Fedwin Morr is almost a carbon copy of Carol's "look at the flowers" scene in Walking Dead. Jaichim Carridin's execution is nearly a carbon copy of the gluttony killing from S7ven. If they translate faithfully, this will be every bit as dark.

[Chivalry]

On 12/30/2021 at 10:11 PM, KakitaOCU said:

Just making the comparison to how GoT runs...

Moraine would have died at the eye.

The Whitecloak treatment of Egwene and Perrin I choose not to think about and wish I hadn't seen enough reality to understand.

Emond's field would have been brought to the ground as you pointed out already.

Shadar Logoth would have killed Mat and Mordeth would be in Mat's body.  Or to make it worse Mat would be inside in a "I have no mouth but I must scream" situation.

 

 

I'm grateful they have not gone this route. Hopefully, they never get sucked into this type of story.

[Chivalry]

On 1/1/2022 at 2:15 PM, AdamA said:

The books are already grim dark. There is a scene of stone automatons stealing a woman away from her screaming baby to temper a new sword by taking her soul. Between that, the gholam tearing people's limbs and heads off with his bare hands, the Asha'man exploding the Shaido, the Shaido tying people up and leaving them naked in the snow, everything Graendal does to her servants. Rand having to poison Fedwin Morr is almost a carbon copy of Carol's "look at the flowers" scene in Walking Dead. Jaichim Carridin's execution is nearly a carbon copy of the gluttony killing from S7ven. If they translate faithfully, this will be every bit as dark.

I think a show/story can include scenes of horrible violence without being "Grim/Dark" overall in tone. I believe the LOTR and WOT books are examples of the former.

 

For example, in The Return of the King (book), I distinctly recall that the orcs laying siege to Gondor flung the decapitated heads of human soldiers over the defenses and into the city to demoralize the populace. Yet few would consider the LOTR books grim in tone (except in comparison to The Hobbit).

 

One of the things I think distinguishes stories like the GOT from the WOT is the fact that in GOT, we spend much of our time viewing the story from the perspectives of people who are awful human beings...and for much of the story, these folk seem to have the upper hand. Even the "good guys/gals", after enduring unfathomable trauma, react in ways more like their adversaries than perhaps we would like. The story blurs the line of what is or is not a hero (or a villain). And we even see villains perform heroic, honorable deeds...without fully redeeming themselves and "walking in the Light". This type of narrative tugs at our loyalties continuously.

 

The overall tone of stories like LOTR and WOT, in my opinion, is much more hopeful, and the good guys/gals are clearly that, even if they do succumb to moments of darkness. 

[Jaysen Gore]

On 1/1/2022 at 5:15 PM, AdamA said:

The books are already grim dark. There is a scene of stone automatons stealing a woman away from her screaming baby to temper a new sword by taking her soul. Between that, the gholam tearing people's limbs and heads off with his bare hands, the Asha'man exploding the Shaido, the Shaido tying people up and leaving them naked in the snow, everything Graendal does to her servants. Rand having to poison Fedwin Morr is almost a carbon copy of Carol's "look at the flowers" scene in Walking Dead. Jaichim Carridin's execution is nearly a carbon copy of the gluttony killing from S7ven. If they translate faithfully, this will be every bit as dark.

I disagree with this - in Grimdark, it would be Rand who does that to replace Tam's Sword, not servants of the dark one

 

In Grimdark, neither Rand nor Carol would mourn having to euthanize crazy people.

 

Carridin's execution was by performed by villains. Not by the Edmond's Field Village Council.

 

Here's a hint - if characters are doing something for the right reasons, and not for their own power, aggrandizement, or benefit, it's probably not Grimdark.

[ArrylT]

13 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I disagree with this - in Grimdark, it would be Rand who does that to replace Tam's Sword, not servants of the dark one

 

In Grimdark, neither Rand nor Carol would mourn having to euthanize crazy people.

 

Carridin's execution was by performed by villains. Not by the Edmond's Field Village Council.

 

Here's a hint - if characters are doing something for the right reasons, and not for their own power, aggrandizement, or benefit, it's probably not Grimdark.

 

Yes that is the sense I am getting when contrasting The Witcher to WoT right now.   Many of these decisions made, by the characters I have seen in the first couple of episodes, seem to be made not for the right reasons but more for personal satisfaction.     I'd say that using the D&D scale, right now Geralt is Lawful Neutral, and most characters are Evil Neutral, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Neutral/Good borderline or Chaotic Evil.     After Geralt, possibly the best character, in terms of making decisions for the right reasons is the Elf King Filavandrel.

 

Certainly not on the level as described in Warhammer - just that in terms of level of GrimDark, Witcher is several tiers darker.  

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by ArrylT

[Scarloc99]

On 1/1/2022 at 10:15 PM, AdamA said:

The books are already grim dark. There is a scene of stone automatons stealing a woman away from her screaming baby to temper a new sword by taking her soul. Between that, the gholam tearing people's limbs and heads off with his bare hands, the Asha'man exploding the Shaido, the Shaido tying people up and leaving them naked in the snow, everything Graendal does to her servants. Rand having to poison Fedwin Morr is almost a carbon copy of Carol's "look at the flowers" scene in Walking Dead. Jaichim Carridin's execution is nearly a carbon copy of the gluttony killing from S7ven. If they translate faithfully, this will be every bit as dark.

Still no proper Grimdark because there is underlying hope of a saviour ? 

In the 40K universe the "saviour" requires 1000 souls be burned screaming in horrific pain to feed him every day, the "Heroes" are Genetic super warriors who have no real empathy or emotion and generally consider humans as useful cannon fodder and if your a mortal man you are effectively sent to war wearing papier mache armour, carrying a fancy flashlight to shine at enemies in the hope it kills them. 

But I do agree that WOT has the capacity to be a far darker and more gratuitous TV show then GOT ever was :). 

[Scarloc99]

On 1/9/2022 at 3:09 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

I disagree with this - in Grimdark, it would be Rand who does that to replace Tam's Sword, not servants of the dark one

 

In Grimdark, neither Rand nor Carol would mourn having to euthanize crazy people.

 

Carridin's execution was by performed by villains. Not by the Edmond's Field Village Council.

 

Here's a hint - if characters are doing something for the right reasons, and not for their own power, aggrandizement, or benefit, it's probably not Grimdark.

I mean, lots of bad stuff happens in the 40K universe for the "right reasons" (death to the alien, the heretic and the unbeliever), mass genocide on a global and solar scale happens, sometimes just because a "small" infestation has been found in the population. 

But yes to add to the above. 

White Cloaks would burn an entire city if they found a single Aes Sedai in it. 

 

[DaddyFinn]

So basically Grim Dark = everything must suck x1000

[ArrylT]

13 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

So basically Grim Dark = everything must suck x1000

 

This explains why some people consider WoT GrimDark because to them diversity sucks x1000