Would she have been veiled?

[EasyBadger]

So the new show trailer is coming under criticism in the usual places because the pregnant Aiel woman fighting Illianers on a snowy mountain isn't veiled.

 

This is a book lore question though: would Shaiel have necessarily been veiled?

 

TSR, Ch 34 "He Who Comes with the Dawn"

 

"...Shaiel found herself with child. By the laws, she should have returned to the Three-fold Land. A Maiden is forbidden to carry the spear while she carries a child. But Janduin could forbid her nothing... So she stayed, and in the last fight, before Tar Valon, she was lost, and the child was lost."

 

The relevant bit here is that a Maiden is forbidden to carry the spear while with child. We don't know what status pregnant Maidens have, but it doesn't seem from this (or elsewhere) they lose their status as a Maiden ("giving up the spear"). They can go back to the spear after pregnancy, but while pregnant they are on some sort of 'maternity leave'.

 

I don't think that the fact that she stayed means that she was able to take up the spear while pregnant. Janduin might have been able to ensure that Shaiel wasn't send home, as clan chief of the Tarrdad he had that power, but a Clan Chief is not a Wetlander king who can override society law/practice/customs, let alone those of Far Dareis Mai. I think she stayed with the Aiel but no longer carried the spear.

 

So, if Shaiel was not algai'd'siswai, would she have been veiled if she found herself in combat? I can't remember a direct example of a non-warrior Aiel in combat wearing a veil or not. There's a Trolloc raid in TSR (Ch 37 "Imre Stand") where Aviendha finds spears and a buckler and had "tucked up a corner of her shawl to veil her face", but I'm not sure that proves much either way, as she still thinks of herself as a Maiden at that point. Plus, it suggests that, in the absence of a shoufa, she'd made do with her shawl. In the absence of a shawl, could she have continued fighting?

 

An idle question, I know, but I've been mulling it over and I thought some advice would help!

 

 

[Sabio]

Any Aiel needs to try to viel if in combat or going to be (well maybe not Wiseones).  Janduin wasn't just a clan chief he was the leader of all the Aiel who came across the Spine of the World, so he had more authority than he normally would.  The fact she was found alone on a mountain after a battle to me shows she was in battle in the books.  If she had stayed in camp then she wouldn't of been lost.  So maybe she snuck out to fight and Janduin didn't know about it, like Avi grabbing spear and going after the Trollocs (wasn't something she was suppose to do but she still did it).  My guess is if you lose your veil or say it get damaged in a fight you keep going (now it might depend on who you're fighting).  Even if she had no viel you would know the wetlanders would still attack you, so viel or not so you could still be forced to fight anyway.  Now maybe an Aiel would just touch the person and make them Gaishan and not attack the person without viel.  But wetlanders, shadowspawn etc.. aren't going to leave you be simply because you have no viel.

[EasyBadger]

Janduin wasn't just a clan chief he was the leader of all the Aiel who came across the Spine of the World, so he had more authority than he normally would

 

The Car'a'carn doesn't get to tell the Maidens what to do, so I doubt Janduin would have been able to overrule them, whatever position he held.

 

Any Aiel needs to try to viel if in combat or going to be (well maybe not Wiseones).

 

I agree basic headcanon suggests that should be the case, but is it? Do we see any Aiel who are not algai'd'siswai veiled?

 

Being in battle doesn't mean veiled. The Aiel wise ones don't veil before attacking at Dumai's Wells, do they? And Aiel can be taken gai'shan, if they were armed in battle - but that doesn't mean that they had to be veiled. A roofmistress touched by a raider can insist on being taken Gai'shan because she "had a carving knife in her hands when she did. A carving knife! It was a weapon, she claimed, as if she were a maiden" (TSR Ch 33 "Beyond the Stone"). I doubt the roofmistress in question was veiled, but she could be considered a combatant.

 

It's a simple question: is the veil only for algai'd'siswai? If it isn't, then where are the veiled non-warriors? I'm happy to read citations, I just can't find them.

Edited December 16, 2021 by EasyBadger
clarification

[Sabio]

Wise One's I'm not sure even had a veil since they aren't suppose to participate in battles.  You would have to go back and read Rand's take on things, I know he mentioned blacksmiths etc looking like they could be just as deadly with a blade if they needed to.  My guess is Blacksmith's, people who normally don't go out to fight probably didn't have a veil since they were considered non combatants.

 

Alot depends on if the fight is Aiel vs Aiel or Aiel vs Wetlander or Shadowspawn.  A blacksmith can't be taken gai'shan so it's unlikely he will pick up a weapon if the hold is raided by Aiel.  But seems unlikely he would just stand about when the trollocs attacked.  My guess is they would have done like Avi and cover their face however they could.  If accompanying the army going over the Dragonwall they would of stayed in camp.  But I doubt you will find anything in writing, my guess is only RJ or Brandon could answer that.

 

Janduin had no power to say just walk into the Maidens hold or tell them you have to accept a man in your ranks.  One key thing is we don't know if he simply told her she didn't have to go back or he gave her the greenlight to keep fighting.  I could easily see if he told her she could stay that not being a very big deal.  So did she sneak out to fight or was she allowed to go out and fight?

[SinisterDeath]

This is the book discussion forum. If you want to discuss what happens in the TV show and whether it's following the books, it needs to take place over there.