Siuan and Moiraine’s Relationship

[Lethira the second]

11 hours ago, Ralph said:

Sorry maybe I haven't followed, but surely Moiraine used this to create the opportunity for the argument. She let Liandrin think she won (remember even before this someone as close to M as Alanna thought she and Siuan were opponents), and actually she got exactly what she wanted and needed

 

Why does Moiraine want to have an argument?  Why does she need it?

 

This precedes her being ordered to stay in the Tower, so at this point she doesn't need Siuan to exile her.

It draws attention to the relationship between the two.  People are talking about them.  If you are trying to hide a relationship with someone, you do not want anyone speculating about it, whether they have the right opinion or not.  If you are trying to persuade people there is some conflict between you and someone else, you don't force it publicly.

 

Moiraine is on a serious, urgent quest.  Tower politics are at best a distraction, why on earth would she court them?  What Moiraine needed was to not be at the Tower in the first place.  Other than TV being a meeting point for the separated party, what did that location offer that other circumstances didn't.  Taking a potential male channeler into that pit of vipers was a huge risk, with little potential pay off.   

 

Back to Moiraine and Siuan.  Book Siuan is a master puppeteer and stateswoman.  Why would she want a public confrontation?  If she bites, it weakens her.  Having her publicly humiliate Moiraine because she can't answer a question is not a show of strength.  It comes off as petulance.  Every woman in that room knows that Moiraine has taken the three oaths.  When she says she 'cannot' answer the question she is hinting that she is up to something nefarious.  Why then was she allowed to leave that room?  And this Moiraine is the expert in Daes Demar.

 

As I've said, the conflict looked forced and served no other point than for the viewers to worry about what the Amyrlin was going to do to Moiraine for a few minutes. 

 

In my opinion, the writing for this scene failed.  Liandrin's excuse for having Siuan question Moiraine was paper thin.  Moiraine forced Siuan into a corner.  Siuan took the bait and acted like a petulant child 'my world' indeed they are the sort of words that would come from a tyrant not wise leader of the Aes Sedai.  

 

I would have preferred they used a different reason to start the conflict.  'She didn't tell us about the Trollocs' was not sufficient.  Moiraine could have quite truthfully said she didn't know about the Trollocs but was chasing down the answer.  The scene with Maeghan ordering her to stay was unnecessary.  If you want to show some apparent conflict between the two -have Siuan order Moiraine to be birched, then have Moiraine slink off in a sulk with the EF5 after.  It's not difficult to come up with something that actually makes sense.

 

Going further, I liked the tenderness between the two and while it was not something that was explored in the books and could have further reaching consequences it did give some depth.  I always read their relationship to have been a very deep bond -I think they genuinely loved one another but circumstances made a relationship of any sort impossible. I thought it was good to show a non-hetrosexual relationship to be something with depth and longevity.  

Edited December 15, 2021 by Lethira the second

[dwn]

31 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

 

Why does Moiraine want to have an argument?  Why does she need it?

It gives Siuan an excuse to chew her out publicly, which helps keep the Hall (and other Aes Sedai in general) from suspecting she and Siuan are working together. They go through a similar (if less obvious) charade in Fal Dara at the beginning of TGH.

 

31 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

Moiraine is on a serious, urgent quest.  Tower politics are at best a distraction, why on earth would she court them?  What Moiraine needed was to not be at the Tower in the first place.  Other than TV being a meeting point for the separated party, what did that location offer that other circumstances didn't.  Taking a potential male channeler into that pit of vipers was a huge risk, with little potential pay off.   

Moiraine's original plan in TEotW was to take the group to Tar Valon. That only changed in Caemlyn when she learned about a possible threat to the Eye.

 

31 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

Going further, I liked the tenderness between the two and while it was not something that was explored in the books and could have further reaching consequences it did give some depth.  I always read their relationship to have been a very deep bond -I think they genuinely loved one another but circumstances made a relationship of any sort impossible. I thought it was good to show a non-hetrosexual relationship to be something with depth and longevity.  

They were clearly in such a relationship in New Spring; the show has extended that to present day.

Edited December 15, 2021 by dwn

[dwn]

32 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

I would have preferred they used a different reason to start the conflict.  'She didn't tell us about the Trollocs' was not sufficient.  Moiraine could have quite truthfully said she didn't know about the Trollocs but was chasing down the answer.  The scene with Maeghan ordering her to stay was unnecessary.  If you want to show some apparent conflict between the two -have Siuan order Moiraine to be birched, then have Moiraine slink off in a sulk with the EF5 after.  It's not difficult to come up with something that actually makes sense.

Maigan ordering Moiraine to remain in the Tower reveals a bit more of the power structure in the Tower--i.e. that some sisters (a Sitter in this case) besides the Amyrlin have authority over others. It also shows that it's normal for the Ajahs (and individual sisters) to have their own secrets and agendas. Note that Maigan never tries to get Moiraine to reveal anything.

 

It's also worth noting that the situation mirrors the one in New Spring where a newly raised Siuan is forced to remain in the Tower by Cetalia.

[Ralph]

45 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

 

Why does Moiraine want to have an argument?  Why does she need it?

 

This precedes her being ordered to stay in the Tower, so at this point she doesn't need Siuan to exile her.

It draws attention to the relationship between the two.  People are talking about them.  If you are trying to hide a relationship with someone, you do not want anyone speculating about it, whether they have the right opinion or not.  If you are trying to persuade people there is some conflict between you and someone else, you don't force it publicly.

We don't yet know, but it is pretty clear that is what happened. When they meet up afterwards Siuan says what was that about. Meaning, she was forced to query her, not because of what L said, but because L alluded to S being blue (to the shock of everyone in the room). We know L was building a campaign against S, from Alanna. S has to respond. 

However, she herself expects M to give a simple aes sedai answer. Therefore she asks what we're you doing. Next conversation is M saying she has to exile her. Of course she says Maigan, but it was clearly set up for this. 

I can think of reasons, but tbh I'd rather wafo

 

45 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

 

Moiraine is on a serious, urgent quest.  Tower politics are at best a distraction, why on earth would she court them?  What Moiraine needed was to not be at the Tower in the first place.  Other than TV being a meeting point for the separated party, what did that location offer that other circumstances didn't.  Taking a potential male channeler into that pit of vipers was a huge risk, with little potential pay off.   

 

 

Which she planned to do in the book also

[Lethira the second]

3 minutes ago, dwn said:

It gives Siuan an excuse to chew her out publicly, which helps keep the Hall (and other Aes Sedai in general) from suspecting she and Siuan are working together. They go through a similar (if less obvious) charade in Fal Dara at the beginning of TGH.

 

Moiraine's original plan in TEotW was to take the group to Tar Valon. That only changed in Caemlyn when she learned about a possible threat to the Eye.

 

They were clearly in such a relationship in New Spring; the show has extended that to present day.

 

Why on Earth does Siuan want an excuse to publicly humiliate Moiraine?  Was it just a set up for the later 'on yer knees' line?  She is supposed to be above the petty squabbles -favouring none.  Liandrin's complaint was petty.  She admits she is on a knife edge in one scene and yet through her treatment of Moiraine is alienating the blues.

 

The point I'm making is that having any interaction between the two as a focal point is an unnecessary risk.  

 

Introducing the fact that the Ajah's have their own business and secrets is important -and something widely important.  So, on the prompting of Liandrin -who is trying to deflect attention for gentling Logain, Siuan -the stateswoman, the master manipulator, decides to throw such custom to the wind.  Maighan interjects this is blue business.  Liandrins comment that all business is judged by the hall could have easily been been dealt with an order that the hall is given answers by the end of the day.

 

Maighan ordering her to stay in the tower may show there is a command chain, but Moiraine by your admission has already disobeyed one such order. 

 

If you enjoyed the scene -great, good for you.  I thought it was weak and made key characters look incompetent.

 

 

[DigificWriter]

@Lethira the second Moiraine and Siuan have two huge secrets to keep:

1) They're working together to seek out the Dragon Reborn

2) They're involved in an ongoing sexual relationship

 

Cultivating and maintaining the false public perception that they are enemies allows them to keep both of those secrets from being discovered.

 

Siuan is clearly a bit confused about Moiraine's motivations for letting Liandrin back the both of them into a corner in the fashion that she (Moiraine) did by not engaging in Aes Sedai double-speak, but the way in which she (Siuan) expresses that surprise communicates that said surprise stems solely from their personal connection.

[MasterAblar]

34 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

@Lethira the second Moiraine and Siuan have two huge secrets to keep:

1) They're working together to seek out the Dragon Reborn

2) They're involved in an ongoing sexual relationship

 

Strictly speaking, the Aes Sedai wouldn’t care about their relationship normally.

 

Its only relevant because it would reveal they’re not opponents as they’re deceiving the Aes Sedai into believing. 

[DigificWriter]

8 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Strictly speaking, the Aes Sedai wouldn’t care about their relationship normally.

 

Its only relevant because it would reveal they’re not opponents as they’re deceiving the Aes Sedai into believing. 

 

Parts of their conversation indicate otherwise, rather strongly implying that their sexual relationship is a direct violation of White Tower rules because Siuan is the Amrylin.

 

 

[AdamA]

It's inappropriate workplace conduct to have sexual relationships with direct reports. This would be at least as big a deal as Bill Clinton. No punishment may ultimately come, but at least all of her enemies will make a big deal of it.

[Jaysen Gore]

14 minutes ago, AdamA said:

It's inappropriate workplace conduct to have sexual relationships with direct reports. This would be at least as big a deal as Bill Clinton. No punishment may ultimately come, but at least all of her enemies will make a big deal of it.

Great comparison, right down to the blue dress...

 

and the affair d'couer even has a wonderful practical use - if it's ever discovered, any plotting or sneaking or mystery will be attributed to that, and not to the quest. Circles within Circles...

[Ralph]

23 hours ago, Ralph said:

remember even before this someone as close to M as Alanna thought she and Siuan were opponents

 

And so did Stepin at beg of ep4, conversation with Lan during weapon practice

[ArrylT]

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Great comparison, right down to the blue dress...

 

and the affair d'couer even has a wonderful practical use - if it's ever discovered, any plotting or sneaking or mystery will be attributed to that, and not to the quest. Circles within Circles...

 

Absolutely.    Circles within circles.   Moiraine,  (likely already knows this) knows from Alanna that Liandrin is focused on interfering with her and/or taking her down a peg.    Allowing herself to be publicly set up for punishment gives Moiraine a bit of leeway.   If Moiraine had given a typical Aes Sedai answer, would Liandrin been satisfied?       

 

As shown from a later scene Liandrin has been really poking around - who knows maybe a lesser answer would have kept Liandrin feeling cornered (since she is getting a punishment too eventually) and airing all of what she found out about the EF5 in the Hall right then or there - she already mentioned Nynaeve after all.   Whereas, as seen right after, Liandrin says, whatever you're doing you better take care of soon  so Liandrin actually takes her foot off the gas pedal.   

 

So basically in the Hall, Moiraine has to on the spot, figure out that Liandrin (a) is feeling cornered (b) will take others down with her and (c) already knows too much for Moiraines liking and come up with an answer that doesnt raise suspicions from the other Ajahs, allows her freedom of movement and time to adjust with Siuan.

 

Moiraine wins by looking like she loses.    Sacrificing face (a pawn) to advance  & protect her other assets (relationship & quest).     Liandrin still almost puts 2 + 2 together re: the EF5, but luckily the additional time also gave Moiraine (it is perhaps doubtful she was aware of Liandrins man in NH prior to arriving in TV) to set up a 3rd block that gives her enough time to finish the departure. 

 

In the end, imo, Moiraine within the space of 2 days is able to juggle multiple balls (including having to now move everyone from TV to Fal Dara), handle a major threat to her and keep the rest of the hall guessing.  

Edited December 15, 2021 by ArrylT

[TheChief]

On 12/11/2021 at 7:16 PM, Storeebooq said:

I love that they are expanding their relationship and deepening it. 

 

I was a literal ball of tears during the Oath Rod scene, especially when Moiraine spoke her part. That scene was powerful to me. Heck the entire exile scene had me deep in my feels. 

 

If there's never a relationship between Mor and Thom, and between Siuan and Gareth in the show I will be pretty happy personally. 

I haven't read all the pages, so please excuse if this is repeated.

 

Someone (I can't remember who) pointed out that what Moraine says in the Throne room sounds like wedding vows "honor and obey SS...". That's a great take, and makes that scene even more emotional for me.

Edited December 15, 2021 by TheChief
typo

[TheChief]

11 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

I thought it was weak and made key characters look incompetent.

Yeah, key characters looking incompetent NEVER happens in the books ?

Edited December 15, 2021 by TheChief
ack! Another typo!

[JenniferL]

Aside from the very excellent character analysis here (seriously, y’all are finding layers that I completely missed), things need to play out differently in a visual medium than they would in a novel. Frosty looks and fingering the fringe of your shawl are now arguments in front of the Hall with dramatic posturing and gasping from the onscreen audience. It’s not how it would have played out in the books, but it’s really hard to do subtle emotions (not impossible, go watch Kerri Russell and Mathew Rhys in the Americans.) and this is part of the adaptation. Things are just going to be BIGGER. 

[DojoToad]

On 12/10/2021 at 8:28 PM, mogi68 said:

It's coincidental

I've been thinking about it more and don't believe it is a coincidence.  No character in the books had uttered that word/s  up to that point - part of the reason it was so impactful.  No one speaks to Aes Sedai that way - you might think it, but never say it.

 

Think it was also impactful in how it was used between Moiraine and Siuan in the show.  But Rand using it after Dumai's Wells won't have the same shock value.

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

But Rand using it after Dumai's Wells won't have the same shock value.

I disagree. Aes Sedai were still feared and highly appreciated at that point and it changed suddenly and drasticly when they were forced to swear obedience to Rand. The world was never the same after that. Siuan's and Moiraine's words don't diminish it at all. 

[EmreY]

Dumai's Wells, while beloved by most, seems like a contrivance to me.  I would be quite content to see it changed dramatically.  Except for the kneeling part.

[MasterAblar]

13 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Dumai's Wells, while beloved by most, seems like a contrivance to me.  I would be quite content to see it changed dramatically.  Except for the kneeling part.

What do you mean exactly by contrivance? Just that so many armies ended up there?

[wotfan4472]

On 12/11/2021 at 11:44 PM, Terry05 said:

I like the way Rafe and co are handling the sex scenes and the nudity from the latest episode. Fresh change from the GoT style of if it's sex or nudity, it has to be degrading.

Yeah. Leave that for Graendal.

[EmreY]

2 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

What do you mean exactly by contrivance? Just that so many armies ended up there?

 

I had to edit a fair bit, so I wrote another reply below.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by EmreY

[AdamA]

Honestly, RJ was a stylistically extremely repetitive writer in general. It's one of the more irritating things about all of his books. "He embraced Saidin, the male half of the true source." Yes, thank you, we don't need the full definition of Saidin every single time you mention it. We don't need every mention of Leane to be "coppery-skinned Leane." At some point, we remember what she looks like. He takes the common editing advice to writers of economy of words and cutting back on unnecessary adjectives and flips it completely on its head to do the exact opposite.

[EmreY]

(I assume that the introduction of Dumai's Wells into the argument means we're well into discussions of later books, but I have used acronyms and stuff to keep spoilers out.)

 

[Lengthy rant removed]

 

I could write much more, but I don't want absolutely everyone thinking I'm a Darkfriend.

Edited December 16, 2021 by EmreY

[DaddyFinn]

6 minutes ago, EmreY said:

but I don't want absolutely everyone thinking I'm a Darkfriend.

Too late! Dumai's Wells is universally loved. ? It was the turning point of Rand's mental declining IMO

[Jaysen Gore]

2 minutes ago, EmreY said:

(I assume that the introduction of Dumai's Wells into the argument means we're well into discussions of later books, but I have used acronyms and stuff to keep spoilers out.)

 

I don't think it advances the storyline.  It ties up a number of ideas/threads, but they might easily not have been opened (Naughty Aes Sedai!  You-know-who can still be kidnapped!) or concluded in slightly different fashion elsewhere as part of another main storyline.

 

One issue I have is that RS makes the same point over and over again.   Aes Sedai are schemers, XYZ is insane and some Aes Sedai are bad people.  Excise these chapters and you wouldn't lose that.  ABC stronk!  Ditto.  The DR is proud and fallible; shown many times over (as an aside, this shouldn't need to be repeated every few hundred pages), and with greater effect and economy during the Semirhage encounter.  Part of this bunch of warriors do not like the DR.  Yep, we got that several times over before, and even more so at the end (not the same group or aims).  Women and men are often at odds.  Gosh, I think I've read that a few hundred times before. Etc etc.  Showing the same point in many different ways is not necessarily conducive to good storytelling; it is reminiscent of a restaurant menu where the same dishes are served again and again, with slight tweaks so that you don't notice the kitchen hasn't moved on to fresh ingredients.

 

An attempt to compensate for economy of writing and original ideas is made by introducing new characters and complications.  A lot of people like the complications that various elements in the books introduce, and enjoy the eventual resolution.  I do too, but only if they add a nuance or extra information to the story.  As far as I am concerned, XYZ's antics could be excised entirely, including the berserk plan to kidnap the Dragon.  I admit to having begun to be increasingly turned off by the ever-more-elaborate tangents introduced at around this point in the series.  Complication is not equal to quality.  The first World War was not a straightforward affair, but Churchill - not the soul of brevity - managed to put it into 1,700 pages.  Perhaps the equivalent of three books in WoT, allowing for differences in font size.  This is fantasy, there needs to be world building, etc etc, so more than that might be required, but an additional 7-8,000 pages?  Not unless the author is self-indulgent or the editors are sidelined for sales.

 

I like parts of the books, there are many good ideas and passages, but they could be much more tightly written.  But this overall section is not one of them.

 

I could write much more, but I don't want absolutely everyone thinking I'm a Darkfriend.

I Think this discussion would better belong to the "changes I'd like to see" thread. Suffice to say, I think there are number of plot and character elements that are crystalized in Dumai's Wells that don't occur elsewhere in the books. Could they have? Sure. But if you remove the Wells, you have to accomplish everything it did in other ways. And it would remove what is almost universally acclaimed as a top 5 chapter in the entire series.