Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[ilovezam]

25 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

But in reality Amalisa was going to steal Rand's thunder, so you could not have her being nasty.

She could have been distrustful of Aes Sedai at first, then realise that Nynaeve and Egwene are actually good people and not from the tower.

 

Then we'd have gotten at least one instance of character growth in all of Season 1. ?

[EmreY]

34 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

particularly of the lionel-hutz-style defenders of the show ?

 

Getting a little personal, aren't you?

[fra85uk]

20 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

Getting a little personal, aren't you?

I am just joking...you were also joking with me that i don't like even the color of the water in the show 

Spoiler

And i went to check if it was the case?

 

[notpropaganda73]

3 hours ago, fra85uk said:

 

But in reality Amalisa was going to steal Rand's thunder, so you could not have her being nasty.

 

Really, if I think of Lady Amalisa taking the first Rand's great moment...I would like to travel in time before the show aired and tell people here "Wot season 1 will end with Amalisa in Tarwin gap defeating the trollocs" and read the reactions, particularly of the lionel-hutz-style defenders of the show ?

 

Oh we are, are we? Is that what you think? Well if that is what you think... I have something to tell you. Something that may shock and discredit you. And that thing is as follows...

 

[notpropaganda73]

Oh they got this all screwed up.

 

 

Oops, shouldn't have this screenwriting association logo here either. 

 

 

[Humbugged2]

On 1/8/2022 at 9:33 AM, Cauthonfan4 said:

Tam still should have been able to hold out longer given his vast experience.

 What vast experience ?

 

Was good 20 years ago,packed it in  then locked his sword away for all those years .If a sportsman gives up say boxing,put on weight,does not train in all that time  do you think he will be able to hold up against someone decades younger just like that in a confined space

[Humbugged2]

On 1/8/2022 at 7:23 PM, Cauthonfan4 said:

but none of those explain...

why the male characters got next to no development.

why they had to take a character widely loved like mat and turn him into something that wasn't enjoyable.

why they chose to shift rand wiping out the army to the women.

 

those are all big changes and none of those would have been impacted by covid.

 

What was there to like about Mat in EOTW and Great Hunt . He got cursed early in the books ,was turned into Gollum and real Mat was missing until he got his 1st POV  in chp 19 of DR

Edited January 15, 2022 by Humbugged2

[Humbugged2]

On 1/11/2022 at 7:15 PM, MColson said:

The Amazon series called Wheel of Time seems only loosely based on Robert Jordan's book series. I understand the need to cut some characters, travels, interactions, and so on. But, by the end of season 1 the TV script doesn't care about the plot of the books at all. Example: the character of Mat was mishandled by the writers from the first. Don't know why they needed to change actors, but it was apparently decided to change the entry into the Ways, so no one could go back for Mat. In the books, the Ways were created by the male Aes Sedai for the Ogier, and they were opened by manipulating a leaf in the design on the doorway. No one needed to channel to open the Ways.

I think those who have forgotten the books will be better able to deal with the changes. My sister never read the books and is enjoying the TV series completely. I, however, am deeply disappointed, and my husband is done with it.

 

But  they could be opened by channeling . When Loial shut tight the Manatheren Gate he said an Ogier Elder or an Aes Sedai could open it back up

 

And I think the Blacks gave Pain the key

[ArrylT]

15 minutes ago, Humbugged2 said:

 

But  they could be opened by channeling . When Loial shut tight the Manatheren Gate he said an Ogier Elder or an Aes Sedai could open it back up

 

And I think the Blacks gave Pain the key

 

It would seem pretty odd to me if the Aes Sedai who created the Ways would make the ways impossible to open by channeling.   Also I've just realized a potential way for Padan Fain to enter the ways behind the party and without (a) needing a key even though he had one in the extras or (b) a channeler opening it for him.

 

According to the Companion guide - if a waygate is opened by channeling, then it does not close completely.

 

So perhaps Padan Fain went to the waygate. took the leaf, forcing it to be opened by channeling.

 

[Ralph]

On 1/14/2022 at 5:56 PM, Deviations said:

I mostly tried to avoid this until I read the ep1 draft.  Rafe states in that draft, that the sex scenes  should show the women in control and the men working to please the woman.  It's one example, but its a clear intention.  I'm not saying it's a crime or that it isn't justified after 90 years of Hollywood sexism, but it can't be denied at this point.

 

That just shows wanting women to be more obviously in control in this world, so that it can be shown later how wrong that is. 

 

Not evidence that there is any intention of trying to show the men as weaker than the women. 

[Ralph]

On 1/14/2022 at 7:16 PM, ilovezam said:

Not directly as a result of channeling within a circle, right? 

 

Graendal drained the people she was linked with

[Ralph]

21 hours ago, ilovezam said:

That's how I originally felt. Then Rosamund Pike the actress, not the biased in-universe character, says all that stuff. And then a flashback to the Age of Legends seemed to just hammer home that these prejudiced Aes Sedai were actually right about the Dragon and the Breaking.

 

I 100% agree with your post and it's a good part of why the books were so good. With regards to the show though - where Robert Jordan features prejudice with condemnation, Rafe seems to sometimes condone it. Jordan balances it out with characters like Moiraine who was more balanced and generally kinder and compassionate towards men despite the prevailing beliefs of the Aes Sedai and we also get to see how wrong and unfair the sexism was, through the eyes of the male characters. We get none of that in the show, and hopefully season 2 will start to remedy that.

 

On the other hand, Rafe wrote Agelmar and LTT in a way that seems to reinforce that these prejudiced Aes Sedai are, in fact, correct to think poorly of men. They both get scenes, in consecutive episodes no less, where they refused to listen to a woman who was much smarter, and 100% in the right. Agelmar is a minor character sure, but writing a kind and virtuous male book character to be the cliche alpha-male twat was a really weird choice. If Rafe just wanted to concoct some free drama for the episode, why not make Amalisa the distrustful one? She's got an extra reason to dislike the Aes Sedai after all since she dropped out from the Tower.

Do we have any reason to think Agelmar would have been more receptive to a man? Moiraine calls him a know-it-all, not a sexist? 

[ilovezam]

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

Do we have any reason to think Agelmar would have been more receptive to a man? Moiraine calls him a know-it-all, not a sexist? 

I never called him a sexist, but a "cliche alpha-male twat". Him being a shitty leader, sexist or otherwise, backs up some of the prejudiced ideas women have about men in-universe. That comment Liandrin makes about undeserving men in power (which was supposed to be sexist and wrong like most Red Ajah takes) suddenly seems more justified now.

[Truthteller]

22 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

That just shows wanting women to be more obviously in control in this world, so that it can be shown later how wrong that is. 

 

Not evidence that there is any intention of trying to show the men as weaker than the women. 

I will bet you my children’s souls that this is not what they are doing.

 

Of course, when it doesn’t happen there will be some kind of rationalization, since if there is one thing this series has proved to me is that there are no goal posts that cannot be moved, nothing that cannot be justified.

[Cauthonfan4]

4 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

since if there is one thing this series has proved to me is that there are no goal posts that cannot be moved, nothing that cannot be justified

Seeing as I've now seen people defending even the writing of the show (even episode 8 ) and lighting (which was a problem all season long) and the costumes (which all looked brand new and not remotely lived in) I'd say you're right.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Gothic Flame]

"Whoever reads this, if any remain to read it, weep for us who have no more tears. Pray for us who are damned alive." 

[DaddyFinn]

3 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Seeing as I've now seen people defending even the writing of the show (even episode 8 ) and lighting (which was a problem all season long) and the costumes (which all looked brand new and not remotely lived in) I'd say you're right.

I don't have issues with any of those except Egwene healing Nynaeve. Your point is..?

[Ralph]

7 hours ago, Truthteller said:

I will bet you my children’s souls that this is not what they are doing.

 

Of course, when it doesn’t happen there will be some kind of rationalization, since if there is one thing this series has proved to me is that there are no goal posts that cannot be moved, nothing that cannot be justified.

How many children? What ages? Any other characteristics that add to value - specific talents, etc? 

 

Just need to prepare my tax returns for 2028/9

 

?

Edited January 17, 2022 by Ralph

[ilovezam]

On 1/16/2022 at 8:46 AM, Ralph said:

That just shows wanting women to be more obviously in control in this world, so that it can be shown later how wrong that is.

It feels a little bit iffy that consensual sex between lovers were used to highlight the women being in control, as though preferences for domination/being dominated in bed is supposed to reflect anything about your personal or societal ideals.

 

Glad they took that out of the episode, it would have been pure cringe.

[RhienneAgain]

11 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

It feels a little bit iffy that consensual sex between lovers were used to highlight the women being in control, as though preferences for domination/being dominated in bed is supposed to reflect anything about your personal or societal ideals.

 

Glad they took that out of the episode, it would have been pure cringe.

Yeah, I have to say reading that segment of the leaked script made me uncomfortable. Why no an emphasis on both partners' pleasure?

[EmreY]

So now we are criticising decisions that we dislike but which were anyway not taken.

[ilovezam]

39 minutes ago, EmreY said:

So now we are criticising decisions that we dislike but which were anyway not taken.

I'm just jumping off of another point being made.

 

Either way, it is some evidence that Rafe might be a weak writer with regards to subtlety, and an indicator of sorts of the vision behind show.

[EmreY]

2 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

I'm just jumping off of another point being made.

 

Either way, it is some evidence that Rafe might be a weak writer with regards to subtlety, and an indicator of sorts of the vision behind show.

 

OK, but if first drafts were anything to go by, Lord of the Rings would be quite different and funny.

[ilovezam]

Just now, EmreY said:

OK, but if first drafts were anything to go by, Lord of the Rings would be quite different and funny.

I mean if Peter Jackson originally planned to do something incredibly, hilariously stupid, I'll be roasting him for it too, even though I adore the final product.

[ilovezam]

1 hour ago, RhienneAgain said:

Yeah, I have to say reading that segment of the leaked script made me uncomfortable. Why no an emphasis on both partners' pleasure?

I read another user's take from here and he thought it was necessary as a counterpoint to how GoT's sex scenes were demeaning to women.

It is... kinda weird