Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[VooDooNut]

8 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

As for that, the book was 50% male 50% female  and the show became 25% male and 75% Female.

 

That is a fair assessment, not sure it was intended as agenda, it’s more a standard 25% increase inclusivity done because the scriptwriters didn’t understand WoT was pretty balanced in that regard.

The first season of a show that takes place in a world dominated by women reflects that dominance?

 

well color me shocked.

 

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Not likely.  An observation from before the show premiered was that Loial was way too short in some released still shots (or maybe just one?).  Lots of the cheerleaders piled on saying it was just perspective.  Perrin is way closer to the camera.  Etc.  In other words, 'don't worry, Loial will be tall'.

 

Yet when short Loial made his show premiere.  It was all comments about how the actor nailed Loial's speech pattern, the make-up was great, or that it is okay he isn't as tall as he is supposed to be.  No more talk about perspective and cameras.  It all turned to - I like it anyway...

 

 

Height differences in RJs WOT series always struck me as needlessly emphasized. Even if all Ogier were canonically as short as fantasy dwarves, would it really change their importance in the series?

[Cauthonfan4]

2 minutes ago, EmreY said:

I really do not get this agenda thing.

let's see.

 

the males are basically changed to be at best incompetent.

Lan can't track his own aes sedai but Nynaeve can.

Lan complains about cold water of all things.

 

Jagad (Who was a great general) somehow thinks the best way to defend the Gap is to not include siege weapons or placing magic users on the wall. Nothing about the Gap defense makes sense from any sort of actual military perspective.

Jagad is changed to be a dick to women because why?

 

Mats father is shown to be a womanizer and not a very good dad.

Mat is shown to have a gambling addiction and not in a good way.

 

Rand is quite possibly relegated to being the most unlikeable character we see in the show, and utterly bland.

 

LTT is shown in a cold open basically being told by a woman exactly what will happen if he tries to go at the dark one (Despite this literally not happening in the books and not being even remotely possible for her to know).

 

The men training with Lan is taken away and never seen but we get to see Moiraine training Egwene.

Meanwhile the women are shown time and time again to be badass through and through.

 

not to mention taking the Killing of the Trolloc Army from Rand and giving it to the women.

 

because you know, the women didn't already have plenty of time to shine throughout the season to begin with?

 

[EmreY]

1 minute ago, Deviations said:

If there isn't an agenda, why do it?  Why add complexity to a story that needed to be shortened and streamlined but to make a specific point?

 

It adds zero complexity.  ("I have three apples in my hand, one of which is rotten" versus "I have five apples in my hand, one of which is rotten" does not raise complexity.  To raise complexity, you'd need to say "two are rotten.")

 

As for the other thing, again, I haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.   Are you sure you're not assuming the entire world - Amazon's audience - has the same cultural or political background as the country you inhabit?

[Raal Gurniss]

Just now, VooDooNut said:

The first season of a show that takes place in a world dominated by women reflects that dominance?

 

well color me shocked.

 

Height differences in RJs WOT series always struck me as needlessly emphasized. Even if all Ogier were canonically as short as fantasy dwarves, would it really change their importance in the series?

The books came across as rather balanced when I read them, still I suppose I took a different view than you did.

[Cauthonfan4]

7 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Because it made for excellent discussion among nonbook readers.

except not really. all it added was confusion as you hyped up these females and degraded the males to the point that people still people that nynaeve or egwyne are the actual dragon, not rand, because rand is bland and boring and clearly he can't be the dragon because he didn't do anything impressive

[Cauthonfan4]

4 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

The first season of a show that takes place in a world dominated by women reflects that dominance?

 

they could have easily done that without making the men completely worthless.

 

Why take Rands blowing up the trolloc horde?

Why make Lan unable to track his own aes sedai?

why make Jagad a mysogistic asshole who comes up with the stupidest idea to defend the gap?

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Thats because they won’t acknowledge criticism and instead focus on the positive only, meaning the show has no intention of improving things…They have taken nothing onboard.

I was so excited about this show.  Even started a thread for what people were doing for their watch parties the night of the premiere, had my Aiel spears and shield, ordered special cookies, totally geeked out - and then the show happened.  And all hopes deflated for me.

 

I'm truly glad many folks are enjoying the show, but I still think some of them are defending it because something is better than nothing.  Or that they naively think it will drastically improve with the same showrunner in charge.  That is just pure speculation on my part.

[Raal Gurniss]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

I was so excited about this show.  Even started a thread for what people were doing for their watch parties the night of the premiere, had my Aiel spears and shield, ordered special cookies, totally geeked out - and then the show happened.  And all hopes deflated for me.

 

I'm truly glad many folks are enjoying the show, but I still think some of them are defending it because something is better than nothing.  Or that they naively think it will drastically improve with the same showrunner in charge.  That is just pure speculation on my part.

Exactly I am also glad they love the show, but I don’t understand why they are so hostile to any and all criticism of it…It serves no point unless they don’t actually want any improvement.

[VooDooNut]

8 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

they could have easily done that without making the men completely worthless.

 

Why take Rands blowing up the trolloc horde?

Why make Lan unable to track his own aes sedai?

why make Jagad a mysogistic asshole who comes up with the stupidest idea to defend the gap?

Depictions of brute strength are not the only way to demonstrate men's worth.

Edit: I really didn't address your other two points so allow me to.

Lan not tracking Moiraine was silly. Not how I would have done it, but also not something that doomed the show for me. Also, I've stated elsewhere, Lan's tracking/covering of tracks abilities are Creator-level unbelievable in both the books and show.

 

The TG fight scene for the men was pretty silly too. I can see how COVID affected this scene, but it was awkward. Again, I don't think it completely ruins the show, just a missed opportunity.

 

7 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I was so excited about this show.  Even started a thread for what people were doing for their watch parties the night of the premiere, had my Aiel spears and shield, ordered special cookies, totally geeked out - and then the show happened.  And all hopes deflated for me.

 

I'm truly glad many folks are enjoying the show, but I still think some of them are defending it because something is better than nothing.  Or that they naively think it will drastically improve with the same showrunner in charge.  That is just pure speculation on my part.

I don't at all mind your dislike of the show. What rubs me the wrong way is statements like the one I bolded above. It feels like an attack on those that simply want to discuss the show in an optimistic (read: not completely doomed) light.

Edited January 7, 2022 by VooDooNut
responded to all quoted points

[EmreY]

14 minutes ago, Deviations said:

If there isn't an agenda, why do it?  Why add complexity to a story that needed to be shortened and streamlined but to make a specific point?

 

It's a choice, not necessarily part of some grand scheme, nor is it anything I have ever in my life had to discuss until I joined this forum.

 

 

 

 

[ForsakenPotato]

Even "is the show a success" is quite subjective.

 

Is it a success by viewership? I think most indicators point to yes.

 

Is it a mainstream critical success? Mixed in that regard but definitely not clear consensus, I would say it's middling. Some critics enjoyed it, others didn't, no one is claiming it's Shakespeare. Let us not forget that is also true to to at least some degree of the books, and is definitely true of most other popular fantasy book and TV series.

 

Is it a success based on your particular hopes and dreams for the show? You gotta answer that question for yourself, and despite frequent attempts on this forum it's not a question anyone can answer for other people.

[Blackbyrd]

5 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

 

 

I'm truly glad many folks are enjoying the show, but I still think some of them are defending it because something is better than nothing.  Or that they naively think it will drastically improve with the same showrunner in charge.  That is just pure speculation on my part.

 

This is at least fair. I give it a solid 4 star -more leaning to 3+- review but I'm in no way swayed toward it becoming some mega hit. There are some great moments in season 1 that make me think it has good potential. Will it live up to that? The 1st season was erratic but if you liked some campy and hopeful live action fantasy you most likely found a good spot.

 

So onto season 2 and maybe some of y'all will stop moving goal post after goal post. Remember when the DR was a female on this site?

Edited January 7, 2022 by Blackbyrd

[Raal Gurniss]

11 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

The first season of a show that takes place in a world dominated by women reflects that dominance?

 

well color me shocked.

 

Height differences in RJs WOT series always struck me as needlessly emphasized. Even if all Ogier were canonically as short as fantasy dwarves, would it really change their importance in the series?

Only when people mistake them for trollocs etc….I mean are you criticising the choice the show made to keep that part in? 

[ashi]

19 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

It adds zero complexity.  ("I have three apples in my hand, one of which is rotten" versus "I have five apples in my hand, one of which is rotten" does not raise complexity.  To raise complexity, you'd need to say "two are rotten.")

I think Deviations means the possibility of a non-tainted-saidin-channeler being the saviour/breaker of the world, and what that would entail, not the number of contestants.

 

Personally, I'd much rather they had skipped this "who is the Dragon" mystery altogether, especially since they didn't really do much to establish anything about the Dragon, and focused instead on the suspense of the Shadow and the Dark One hunting our main characters (including Nynaeve and Egwene, or perhaps only Egs; Nyn. is probably better shown to be a protector). If they wanted mystery, the mystery could be why they were being hunted at all - which would have the added bonus of Moiraine not breaking character by showing many of her cards for no reason.

 

As it is, the Shadow came (at least to me) across as rather bland and fleeting - and unthreatening enough to leave the characters alone for an uneventful month of trekking.

Edited January 7, 2022 by ashi

[Cauthonfan4]

8 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Depictions of brute strength are not the only way to demonstrate men's worth.

 

i agree. showing Lan being an amazing tracker would have been a great way to show that wouldn't it? but no. he had to be told how to track his own aes sedai.

Jagad being an awesome general, who is NOT a misogynist, and instead ASKS the women to help support at The Gap could show that he is both a GOOD guy, and a sound Strategist by employing what he has available no?

The boys being seen trained in their weapons could show them becoming something more then "Simple two rivers folk" as they progress with their weapons and become actual threats to trollocs?

 

we had plenty of stuff from the first book that could have easily showcased the men of the show as competent and of equal standing with the women around them. and instead they made them bland and almost entirely reliant on women.

 

The entire series has plenty of badass women and moments for women to be awesome. they did not need to add more, and they did not need to make the men incompetent and terrible at best in order to do it.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[VooDooNut]

3 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Only when people mistake them for trollocs etc….I mean are you criticising the choice the show made to keep that part in? 

Nope.

 

But that is a good example of how appearance affected peoples perceptions in the book. I just don't think height it the most important characteristic of the Ogier overall. I think RJ just put a lot of stock in height=important and that fed a lot into how he described his characters.

[VooDooNut]

2 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

i agree. showing Lan being an amazing tracker would have been a great way to show that wouldn't it? but no. he had to be told how to track his own aes sedai.

Jagad being an awesome general, who is NOT a misogynist, and instead ASKS the women to help support at The Gap could show that he is both a GOOD guy, and a sound Strategist by employing what he has available no?

The boys being seen trained in their weapons could show them becoming something more then "Simple two rivers folk" as they progress with their weapons and become actual threats to trollocs?

 

we had plenty of stuff from the first book that could have easily showcased the men of the show as competent and of equal standing with the women around them. and instead they made them bland and almost entirely reliant on women.

This is all opinion. I can't convince you the men in season 1 are depicted well, but I was satisfied with how they were portrayed. I also forgot to respond to Lan's tracking or Tarwin's gap in my first reply, (but added it in as an edit should you want to read it).

[Raal Gurniss]

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

Nope.

 

But that is a good example of how appearance affected peoples perceptions in the book. I just don't think height it the most important characteristic of the Ogier overall. I think RJ just put a lot of stock in height=important and that fed a lot into how he described his characters.

So why aren’t the trollocs 3 foot tall for instance? Lets face it the show paid little heed to any descriptions of the characters that the book had, yet they tried to make the Ogier larger

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

20 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Yet when short Loial made his show premiere.  It was all comments about how the actor nailed Loial's speech pattern, the make-up was great, or that it is okay he isn't as tall as he is supposed to be.  No more talk about perspective and cameras.  It all turned to - I like it anyway...

 

It's hard to remember back to 3 whole months ago, but no one NO ONE thought it even remotely feasible that Tarwin's Gap would be given to Amalisa. Everyone was talking about how excited they were to see Rand go ham on the trollocs.

 

Everyone was saying how the changes are small, necessary for adaptation, that big character moments would be respected, that the destination would be the same just with a different journey. 

 

And yet here we are. What next? That's the question that makes me nervous. 

 

If the writers did this to Tarwin's Gap, why should I believe they won't do the same at Falme, Dumai's Wells, the Stone of Tear, or any other of WoT's big moments? 

 

And still people are apologizing for Rafe and making excuses for the show and the writers. Unbelievable. 

[Cauthonfan4]

4 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

but I was satisfied with how they were portrayed.

you're satisfied with men being portrayed as incompetent and/or assholes? mysoginistic? you're satisfied that lan is shown to be afraid of cold baths and unable to track his own aes sedai?

you're satisfied that the three boys got less character development COMBINED then either Nynaeve or Egwene did?

Edited January 7, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[EmreY]

17 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

they could have easily done that without making the men completely worthless.

 

Why take Rands blowing up the trolloc horde?

Why make Lan unable to track his own aes sedai?

why make Jagad a mysogistic asshole who comes up with the stupidest idea to defend the gap?

 

You repeat yourself too much.  Allow us the time to respond to the first time you raised these points in the last two pages.

 

1. Slow burn.

2. A good point.

3. Oh, who bloody cares?

 

Next you'll be saying they cast a taller actress than the Moiraine in the books so that the physical differences between men and women would be diminished.

 

 

[Raal Gurniss]

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

This is all opinion. I can't convince you the men in season 1 are depicted well, but I was satisfied with how they were portrayed. I also forgot to respond to Lan's tracking or Tarwin's gap in my first reply, (but added it in as an edit should you want to read it).

They were portrayed in a lesser fashion than the books and done so often in the show that there is reason why you would struggle to convince people otherwise.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

3 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

you're satisfied that the three boys got less character development COMBINED then either Nynaeve or Egwene did?

Forget that, they didn't even get half the character development that Stepin did. Meanwhile Nynaeve and Egwene were given more development than in the books, and the boys were left with the leftovers. 

[Katherine]

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

"with EASE" meaning the certain deaths of 3/5's of them and a possible death of a 4th had healing not been immediately provided.  Also requiring the strongest channeler in 1000 years and the potential of a another benchmark channeler.

"With EASE"

Wiping out 1000s of the enemy while only sustaining 3 deaths.

 

Seemed like it was pretty easy. 

[Raal Gurniss]

3 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

It's hard to remember back to 3 whole months ago, but no one NO ONE thought it even remotely feasible that Tarwin's Gap would be given to Amalisa. Everyone was talking about how excited they were to see Rand go ham on the trollocs.

 

Everyone was saying how the changes are small, necessary for adaptation, that big character moments would be respected, that the destination would be the same just with a different journey. 

 

And yet here we are. What next? That's the question that makes me nervous. 

 

If the writers did this to Tarwin's Gap, why should I believe they won't do the same at Falme, Dumai's Wells, the Stone of Tear, or any other of WoT's big moments? 

 

And still people are apologizing for Rafe and making excuses for the show and the writers. Unbelievable. 

Are people apologising for him? Not sure they even admit he made any mistakes…