Differences in the position of wisdoms

[SingleMort]

One thing I noticed in the show is that when they mention Egwene might become a wisdom in the show she said and Rand couldn't be together because wisdoms were not allowed to have families or get married. Maybe I'm misremembering this from the books but I don't remember any rule about wisdoms not being able to have husbands/partners in fact I seem to recall it was generally accepted that Egwene would train to be a wisdom and become betrothed to Rand before they leave Emond's Field. The position of Wisdom is not part of any religion or order so I cannot see the value to vows of chastity or celibacy. Am I getting this wrong and if not does anyone know why they might have made this change because I'm kinda puzzled by it   

[Windigo]

1 hour ago, SingleMort said:

One thing I noticed in the show is that when they mention Egwene might become a wisdom in the show she said and Rand couldn't be together because wisdoms were not allowed to have families or get married. Maybe I'm misremembering this from the books but I don't remember any rule about wisdoms not being able to have husbands/partners in fact I seem to recall it was generally accepted that Egwene would train to be a wisdom and become betrothed to Rand before they leave Emond's Field. The position of Wisdom is not part of any religion or order so I cannot see the value to vows of chastity or celibacy. Am I getting this wrong and if not does anyone know why they might have made this change because I'm kinda puzzled by it   

I was puzzled too, Daise Congar is married and becomes the Wisdom after Nynaeve. It seemed like a cheap what can we add to make this odd relationship with Rand have some kind of strife,  instead of the childhood crush, adult expectations from the books that they needed to get through and grow out of as they changed and moved on.  It just felt like a meaningless addition that really didn't add anything. 

[Starganderfish]

Yep, it’s more made up crap to artificially create conflict and tension and what passes for character development.

Spoiler

In some of Rand’s Portal stone visions she was Wisdom and they married, and in Egwene’s first Accepted test they were married, they had a child and she was studying to be Nynaev’s replacement. It’s 100% not from the source material .

It makes zero sense for a healer, midwife and one of the top female role models in the village to be so completely divorced from regular village life.

A Wisdom would be expected to marry and be an integral part of the community,  not a hermit living in the woods, divorced from human contact. 
Fertility, enforcing sacredness of marriage, guiding the Village Council - these are all key parts of the Wisdoms role and not being part of the life and future of the village are antithesis to that. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Starganderfish

[Daenelia]

I dunno, I think this is a matter of different ways to play out the characters motvations. At some point in the books Egwene does realise that it is not going to be feasible to still expect to be married to Rand. So they moved this forward and made it a point that she would pick a position where she can explore her talents over being a housewife.

 

I can relate to that. Not every woman wants to be a housewife on top of working her job. That is why we have a cleaner, because I am not going to do household chores on top of working my behind off.

 

I think it was an interesting way to make the point that maybe Rand and Egwene's destinies are not what they initially thought for. They are not each other's default after all.

[TheDreadReader]

10 hours ago, SingleMort said:

One thing I noticed in the show is that when they mention Egwene might become a wisdom in the show she said and Rand couldn't be together because wisdoms were not allowed to have families or get married.

 

I think the line is more "Wisdoms rarely marry" than "never marry".   And, it basically appears in the books as well.  I think Eqwene says it in the books whereas the show uses Rand to say it.

 

 

10 hours ago, SingleMort said:

The position of Wisdom is not part of any religion or order so I cannot see the value to vows of chastity or celibacy. Am I getting this wrong and if not does anyone know why they might have made this change because I'm kinda puzzled by it   

 

There's a relationship between "listening to the wind" and having the ability to channel that isn't really worked out in the books.   We know that channelers can age differently.  That can create some relationship issues if you're a wisdom because one could easily outlive your family.   That might be relatively rare but it  would be pretty practical to have a tradition for wisdom's not to marry to avoid that kind of situation (even if time and circumstances causes them to forget exactly why they had the rule in the first place).

 

 

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Daenelia said:

I dunno, I think this is a matter of different ways to play out the characters motvations. At some point in the books Egwene does realise that it is not going to be feasible to still expect to be married to Rand. So they moved this forward and made it a point that she would pick a position where she can explore her talents over being a housewife.

 

But it was an unnecessary change to motivation.  She was going to leave Rand behind for the White Tower.

 

If they leave the Two Rivers together with Rand, and probably Egwene, still thinking that life was going to play out as they had expected prior to Moiraine - that still leaves plenty of opportunity for the relationship to end later.  And also gives Rand more motivation to go and protect his woman - you know, all that toxic masculinity stuff.

[The Purple Ajah]

I'm going to pull up the first conversation Rand and Egwene ever have in the books:

Quote

 

"Just because someone is old enough to marry," he muttered, "doesn't mean they should. Not right away."

"Of course not. Or ever, for that matter."

Rand blinked. "Ever?"

"A Wisdom almost never marries."

 

 

Can people stop with the complaints of things that have extremely strong justifications from the books? Rand acting like their betrothal is over completely makes sense not just with any new lore from the show, but with the exact same knowledge we have about Wisdoms from the books.

 

By Egwene's very own words in the Eye of the World, Daise is an exception. She had to become the Wisdom by default with no training after both the incumbent Wisdom and her hopeful apprentice left and were never coming back.

8 hours ago, Starganderfish said:

Yep, it’s more made up crap to artificially create conflict and tension and what passes for character development.

It makes zero sense for a healer, midwife and one of the top female role models in the village to be so completely divorced from regular village life.

A Wisdom would be expected to marry and be an integral part of the community,  not a hermit living in the woods, divorced from human contact. 
Fertility, enforcing sacredness of marriage, guiding the Village Council - these are all key parts of the Wisdoms role and not being part of the life and future of the village are antithesis to that. 

  Reveal hidden contents

In some of Rand’s Portal stone visions she was Wisdom and they married, and in Egwene’s first Accepted test they were married, they had a child and she was studying to be Nynaev’s replacement. It’s 100% not from the source material .

If you believe that, then you actually disagree with Robert Jordan, not just the show.

[ArrylT]

I also recommend reading the Wheel of Time Companion & WOT fan wiki.

 

As far as I can see none of the Wisdoms there apart from Daise Congar were listed as being married.  

 

Not to mention:

 

"The position of Wisdom is one of great responsibility and authority, both actual and implied.[1] Wisdoms are generally considered the equal to a village Mayor, and in some places his superior.[1] Unlike mayors, Wisdoms are generally chosen for life and it is exceptionally rare for a Wisdom to be removed from her office before her death.[1] All Wisdoms claim that they can " Listen to the Wind" but only those who are also wilders actually have the ability"

 

Basically by making the village their family they are making a personal sacrifice - so it is not that they are cutting themselves off from village life or being a hermit - rather they are opening themselves to everyone and being a mother to everyone not just their own children / personal family is how I interpret it.

 

Ergo this was a potential lifelong commitment where Egwene would be putting the needs of Emonds Field ahead of her own personal needs & those of Rand.

 

Spoiler

Much like what she ends up doing as Amyrlin Seat - and it makes sense also that the Wisdom is modeled after the White Tower in that aspect especially as many Wisdom / Kin had some ties to the White Tower, even if only briefly as potential novices / runaways.

 

[Skipp]

I keep hearing these type of complaints where the show is differing from peoples head cannon but actualyl the show is sticking closer to the books in these areas.  Things like the above or The Two Rivers is too mountainy despite being in the mountain foothills or that Rand says the Westwoods are for hardy farmers only due to its rocky nature. 

 

I heard a complaint about Perrin and Egwene's trek across the plains and that it should be more lush.  Seems some people are completely forgetting the actually description of those plains plus the fact that Spring is very late in coming.

 

The Show has made plenty of changes to nitpick we don't need people doing that for parts that are accurate lol.

[Daenelia]

46 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

But it was an unnecessary change to motivation.  She was going to leave Rand behind for the White Tower.

 

If they leave the Two Rivers together with Rand, and probably Egwene, still thinking that life was going to play out as they had expected prior to Moiraine - that still leaves plenty of opportunity for the relationship to end later.  And also gives Rand more motivation to go and protect his woman - you know, all that toxic masculinity stuff.

 

Because men should only protect that which they consider theirs? ? Do you really want to have a discussion about toxic masculinity and how I don't think that goes for Rand over Egwene? Were you born before WWII? Does the whole 'men should provide for their woman' still ring true for you? ? 

Let me give you a virtual hug, because I am sure we don't want to get into that. Is not worth it.

 

Everything in the first episodes has been compressed, so Egwene's motivation may come earlier than you saw it coming in the books. Just see it as an alternate way to tell the story, down a different track. It's not that important when it happens. Just that it was never going to be an option for either of them to live out the life they expected. On all levels!

 

[TheDreadReader]

35 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

 

  Hide contents

Much like what she ends up doing as Amyrlin Seat - and it makes sense also that the Wisdom is modeled after the White Tower in that aspect especially as many Wisdom / Kin had some ties to the White Tower, even if only briefly as potential novices / runaways.

 

 

 

Spoiler

And, that fits together nicely with the Moiraine/Nyneave conversation at the pool.

 

It may be a addition to what is in the books but it adds some clarity to how things work overall.

 

 

[TheDreadReader]

13 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

Everything in the first episodes has been compressed, so Egwene's motivation may come earlier than you saw it coming in the books. Just see it as an alternate way to tell the story, down a different track. It's not that important when it happens. Just that it was never going to be an option for either of them to live out the life they expected. On all levels!

 

 

Personally, I found this compression to be a good thing as it adds a degree of clarity and nuance to their relationship during the early journeys.   There are some good cause and effects going on.   

 

 

 

 

  

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Daenelia said:

 

Because men should only protect that which they consider theirs? ? Do you really want to have a discussion about toxic masculinity and how I don't think that goes for Rand over Egwene? Were you born before WWII? Does the whole 'men should provide for their woman' still ring true for you? ? 

Let me give you a virtual hug, because I am sure we don't want to get into that. Is not worth it.

?

2 hours ago, Daenelia said:

 

Everything in the first episodes has been compressed, so Egwene's motivation may come earlier than you saw it coming in the books. Just see it as an alternate way to tell the story, down a different track. It's not that important when it happens. Just that it was never going to be an option for either of them to live out the life they expected. On all levels!

 

Other than being snarky - I was trying to say: There were many changes that needed to be made, this was not one of them.  If they need to speed it up, fine - than make Egwene say she is committing to the Tower earlier.

[Daenelia]

But they made a different choice, probably because of future scenes that we have not seen yet. Have a little faith. I really hope you can just take the story in the series and enjoy it for what it is, and not for what it will never be.

 

We know or all of them they are never going to live out that country life they thought they were born for. They are no young ones trying to escape their dreary boring future in a sleepy town; they probably were looking forward to having a family, and watching over their little sisters, and getting married ... or not. They arent ready for adventure but will travel and grow up when they need to be stronger.

 

And there is precious little known about The Tower because you can't overload the audience with information. It would be meaningless to mention that now.

 

I did check with my guy: he can handle a lot of new info, but even as condensed and compressed as it was, including leaving out characters we know and love, he felt a bit overwhelmed at how many characters and places there were. He can just about keep up as it is.

[DojoToad]

Right now I'm not liking it.  Maybe it is as you say and future changes demand what is happening now.  I'm trying to let go what I 'know' from the books but it is difficult.  Because I don't know why they made certain changes, I'm having a bad reaction to some.

 

They changed Mat's family - I like it.  Don't know why but have assumptions.

 

They flip flopped Bran and Verin, Raen and Ila - don't like it.  Don't know why but have assumptions.