Gender-fluid channeling

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

If you were gender fluid and you could channel, would you channel saidin or saidar? Or would it switch depending on your gender? Or would you just channel saidar if you had a female body, or saidin if you had a male one? Would you be excepted into the White Tower or the Black Tower? Suppose you suddenly were channeling saidar in the middle of weaving something of saidin? What would happen if you were linked? How about a'dam? Would they work on you?

I know this is a lot of things to consider, but they would all need to be if gender fluidity was a thing in the Wheel of Time. I personally think that you would channel according to your present gender, and that you would be more likely to be excepted into the Black Tower than the White.

If you were weaving something and then you were holding the other side of the One Power, I think your weave would dissipate without doing anything.

If you changed gender (and sides of the Power) when you were linked, I think you could either end the circle, if that made the circle too big to follow the rules, and if it didn't then it would just make there one more saidar, or saidin, wielding person in the circle than there was at the beginning.

I think the a'dam would affect you either way, but you would need a male a'dam to contain you without incredible pain, if you were a man at that time.

Let me know what you think, as this is a very fascinating topic for me, and I would love to see what other people think of this idea.

Thanks for your time!

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Asha'man Shar'aman

[Liitha]

I believe RJ has said its part soul and part genetics 

 

and with what we see with Aran'gar it seems that its the soul that determine wheter you channel saidin or saidar. So i dont think it would depend upon beeing XX, XY or XXY

 

which makes it really interesting how it would show in someone who didnt identify as either

I think there is three options then

1. they either use both if they identify with both genders 

2. from natures side if they dont identify with either they dont channel, even if they got the genetics cause the enviroment part of the soul identity of male or female isnt present to make it happen

3. there is a tird type of power aka said__ not known about for those not identifying as either female or male

 

based on how nature seem to work i think it would be either one of those three or a combination of them all pending...personally i like the tird one if it follows soul then it makes sence that those not identifying as either male or female have a tird unknown option they would channel rather then being forced into the female or male soul identification channeling options, even though it breaks the whole two halves system...makes sence as well from the fact we always discover the world isnt quite what we think and our reality is just limited by knowledge and understanding of the world we are in like people thinking the earth was flat for so long because its whats made sence based on avaliable knowledge and understanding of how things worked back then (like not knowing about gravity principles and whatnot)

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, Liitha said:

I believe RJ has said its part soul and part genetics 

 

and with what we see with Aran'gar it seems that its the soul that determine wheter you channel saidin or saidar. So i dont think it would depend upon beeing XX, XY or XXY

 

which makes it really interesting how it would show in someone who didnt identify as either

I think there is three options then

1. they either use both if they identify with both genders 

2. from natures side if they dont identify with either they dont channel, even if they got the genetics cause the enviroment part of the soul identity of male or female isnt present to make it happen

3. there is a tird type of power aka said__ not known about for those not identifying as either female or male

 

based on how nature seem to work i think it would be either one of those three or a combination of them all pending...personally i like the tird one if it follows soul then it makes sence that those not identifying as either male or female have a tird unknown option they would channel rather then being forced into the female or male soul identification channeling options, even though it breaks the whole two halves system...makes sence as well from the fact we always discover the world isnt quite what we think and our reality is just limited by knowledge and understanding of the world we are in like people thinking the earth was flat for so long because its whats made sence based on avaliable knowledge and understanding of how things worked back then (like not knowing about gravity principles and whatnot)

 

RJ did say, things get weird after the last battle.

 

Aran'gar proves the connection that the "soul" determines it, not genetics, which opens it up to the possibility that the wheel might fudge up, and put a female/male soul, in the "wrong" genetic body. Given everything that's happened in the books, that's not impossible.

E.g. If I were to run a homebrew game of D&D using WoT setting/rules, and if someone wanted to be a "man" that could channal Saidar, I'd probably rule it okay, using the soul argument. Besides, It would create some very interesting scenarios!

[Liitha]

nods the real problem comes when your not just dealing with a female or male soul trapped in a male or female body, but if you have someone who dont identify as female or male.

 

which is what is raised here, what about those who are gender fluid or i would rather say non binary as is the most common used umbrella label where gender fluid is one of them, but you also got agender, bigender, third gender and so on, aka people who most often prefer to use they or something else as a pronoun.

 

if saidar is female and saidin is male, then in a logical sence the easiest fix to me would be there is a said__ for those who identify as something else, that is somewhere inbetween the two maybe in the norm for channeling rules or something on average

Edited October 14, 2020 by Liitha

[SinisterDeath]

6 hours ago, Liitha said:

nods the real problem comes when your not just dealing with a female or male soul trapped in a male or female body, but if you have someone who dont identify as female or male.

This could easily delve into an array of metaphysical, sociological, and physiological topics, but "cannon" WoT ties it to the "soul".

For Reference: 90% of the stuff happening now, via social media, was barely spoken aloud when these books were first written in the 90s, let alone when RJ passed away in 2007. The US Supreme court didn't strike down all anti-gay marriage laws until 2015.

In 2007 (Before Obama), people coming out of the closet was still "taboo". Trans issues were barely talked about, at least not as a national narrative. Pop-culture only really talked about it in the context of Drag Queens which in and of itself is it's own sub-culture that's been brushed aside by todays "pop-culture".

The easiest "answer" from Cannon Wheel of Time, is that if someone were born physiologically male, the only way they could channel Saidar, is if the wheel spun out a female soul into the males body or vice versa.

The only example we have of this happening, unfortunately for LGBTQ+, is within an evil and unnatural context via Aran'gar. (LGBTQ+ community definitely doesn't want Rafe to use one of the Forsaken as a Trans character.)

We can't "know" what's possible in the 4th age, nor can we know for certain that the "wheel" wouldn't spin out a soul in a similar manner naturally, in any given Age. Though I think if RJ were alive today? He might have said "Sure" the wheel could do that.

This of course leads to situations where if someone were Trans, but "doesn't" have the soul that matches their "mind", they would channel the side of the One Power locked to the physical gender they were born with. 
 

On the other end, if someone were gender fluid and could identify as a different gender any day of the week, I don't believe cannon would support them swapping from Saidar to Saidin. Cannon is pretty adamant that it's one or the other from birth to death.

On the other hand, if someone were born with twin souls, and they were both different genders? Could they channel both halves?

 

If there was a character that became "Legion", an amalgamation of thousands of souls, could they in turn, use saidar & saidin and make a circle with themselves?

 

In the 4th age, could someone be born that could use the One Power directly, bypassing the need to channel Saidar/Saidin entirely? I say yes. (I think Post final battle Rand show's this to be true.)

Exploring the possibilities of the 4th age, allows for the existence of a completely different set of rules that don't have to follow "Cannon".. Unlike the 2nd/3rd Age which has these hard-locked cannon rules-as-written that limits how we "know" the system works.

It's entirely possible that the 4th, 5th or 6th age, turns into high-fantasy play ground of extraordinary magicks accessible by almost anyone not divided along gender lines, and a whole slew of new sentient races like elves/dwarves/gnomes lead right into something resembling the Forgotten Realms.

Edited October 14, 2020 by SinisterDeath

[Liitha]

nods of course it is a theoretical debate of newer age because as you point out a lot of these topics werent so up in the public eye then

 

so within the current cannon no it would not be posible they would have to land either female or male which somewhat excludes non binary, but its an interesting subject to debate theoretical at least for now...

[SinisterDeath]

39 minutes ago, Liitha said:

nods of course it is a theoretical debate of newer age because as you point out a lot of these topics werent so up in the public eye then

 

so within the current cannon no it would not be posible they would have to land either female or male which somewhat excludes non binary, but its an interesting subject to debate theoretical at least for now...

Within the current cannon way the magic system works, a variety of loopholes exist that allow for the possibility of skirting around the traditional binary gender magic system. These loopholes require the metaphysical concept of souls having a "gender".

E.g #1. If someone identifies as Gender Fluid, but within the wheel of time universe they have a "male soul", it wouldn't matter which gender they identify as, they would only be able to channel Saidin.
 

E.g #2. If someone identifies as Gender Fluid, and non-binary/gender fluid souls exist outside the normal binary gender system, then that opens up the possibility that said person could channel both Saidar and Saidin at the same time, the One Power directly, or something else entirely.

That's the best way I can explain it really. There's a ton of ways you can "skirt" the "rules" RJ defined, but I think it only works if we frame it around the metaphysical soul.

It's similar to how in Science Fiction we can "skirt" the rules regarding the maximum speed of light as defined in Physics by punching a "hole" between two points in space, e.g. Wormhole, effectively" allowing the possibility of traveling a distances far greater than we could physically travel at the speed of light.

We take the rules we "know" as cannon, and then side-step them/work around them.
 

A "Legion" character capable of channeling could be a truly frightening thing...  
WoT kinda has a "Legion", we call it Mashadar. If that thing consumed a lot of channelers, and was able to channel the OP, going through the waygates would have killed everyone in book 1!

[Liitha]

nods for me it would make sence it was something else like a tird said__ just undiscovered or something, that laid in qualities or behavior if you want somewhere between the two excsisting ones, it seems to be the easiest fix so to speak to me logically...but i am probably also coming to the issue as a RPer used to thinking in tables for weaves and strength of elements...generating a table between the two we got is a lot easier then deal with something new entirely or have a super character that can do both (though it could be an option for those who are the fluid kind of non binary)

 

punching holes and the like just seems to much a hazle for my head to deal with... :P