How old is Amys anyway?

[cloglord]

45ish.

 

I was already to start a discussion on how old Amys could be compared to other midrange channelers, when I realized that she had said that she was a maiden when Tigraine showed up in the waste. That would make her 45 or thereabouts.

 

Which makes me wonder, were does a 45 year old wise one get off being equal to the 300 year old soreilia?

[Luckers]

Age seems to have very little to do with the hierarchy of the Wise Ones... any more then strength, or the power, or anything else does. Verin spent time trying to figure out how their hierarchy works, and fails. Sometimes one women would bow to another, and sometimes the reverse, with no seeming pattern avalliable.

 

As for age, yeah, i'd agree. Somewhere around 45 to 50. We know it took the Wise Ones some time to bully Amys into become a Wise One, but i couldn't see her being much older then 25 when she gave in, which would have been about 20 years ago.

[cloglord]

Okay, so how about Melaine?

 

Melaine appears to be in her early 30's (TSR Ch.23) Further she is stronger than the average Aes Sedai in her OP ability (ACoS Ch.10.)

 

So lets look at other examples of stronger than average non bound channelers. Reanee Corly is 411 years old and is not as strong as Nicola but is as strong as Sheriam, Kwamesa, and Kiruna, (ACoS Ch. 23.) Since we know that Kiruna and Bera are about the same strength that would put Reanne in the same category as her as well. I would further categorize all of these women to be stronger than the average aes sedai, and on a par with Melaine and Amys. Further we know that Reanne appears to be between 50 and 60,(ACoS Ch. 24)Lets call it 55 and split the difference.

 

Now lets, for the sake of argument, use the age of 16 as a constant age at which slowing begins. That would mean that Reanne corly took about 395 years to gain an apparent 39 years. This means that Reanne aged at about 1/10th the rate of a normal woman. If we apply this standard to Melaine at an apparent age in her early 30's we can guess her age to be between 156, (16 + (14/.1),) and 196, (16 + (18/.1),) depending on wether you call early 30's to be 30 or 34.

 

Additionall Kirstian looks about 10 years older than Nynaeve which would put put her at an apparent age of her early 30's (TPoD, Ch.1). If Kirstian became a novice at the age of 16 that would mean that she is 314, and an apparent early 30's.

 

This says to me that Melaine is the more likely WO to match Sorielia's 300 + years and should be the one sharing the power with her.

[Guest LurkingFadeFetcher]

from my reading the only thing that seemed to have any effect on a wise ones standing was their willpower. Sorilea is well known among the aiel for her sheer strength of will and she is undoubtedly at the top of the heirarchy. Just my thought.

[Luckers]

Again cloglord, age has nothing to do with Wise One hierarchy.

 

But that being said, Melaine is not that old. From the Shadow Rising i would say she only just became a full Wise One. She fair reeks of youth and inexperience.

 

Besides, you are wrong about the age issue. slowing for women does not set in until around five years after they begin channeling. For men it is ten years after. Additionally, a better extrapolation can be made.

 

Even if Melaine began at the age you suggest... and given what we see of the average age of the apprentices in Lord of Chaos, i think that is unlikely, but even if, she would not have begun slowing until she was 21. But if she began later... women can manifest as late as 24, and if she wasn't a sparker, it could be even later--Wise Ones find every woman, sooner or later. But im going to suggest around 20. She would have begun to slow at 25. 10 years or so in training (if she was quick). And she would be around 35, whilst appearing around 27 to 28. Which fits.

[Cybertrolloc]

There was a disparaging comment made by a WO somewhere about Aes Sedai being savages for having a hierarchy by strength instead of ji. Not to say that that's the only determination either, the Aiel seem pretty pragmatic in general.

[Luckers]

I missed that. It would explain a lot though. Could i get the page number?

[cloglord]

Sure, I was just throwing out some numbers to get us going, but we do have a verifiable case of a non-bound channeller who appears to be in her early 30's who is a verifiable 300+ years old. Kirstian.

[Lady Saravhem]

:shock: Soreilia is 300? How is that figured? I never really noticed that enough info was given about her to figure that out. I don't doubt you guys I just wonder how you figure it up.

[Luckers]

Sorilea is old... appearing around seventy. She is also a channeler--even if weak. That makes her, at the least, somewhere between 400 and 600. Likely closer to 600.

[Cybertrolloc]

Luckers, try the prologue of ACoS? It's not really in character for Avi, and I don't think there's much in the way of WO PoVs.

[cloglord]

Cadsuane thinks that she would never meet someone as old as she, that is until she meets Sorelia. Luckers on what basis to do assume that a weak channeler slows at the same rate as a strong channeler? There seems to be some evidence to the contrary. Namely, Cadsuane was the strongest aes sedai prior to the wonder girls and is also legendary in her longevity. On the opposite end, Morgase is described as being very youthful for her age, but not so youthful that it is the first feature mentioned. I think it is very likely that strength is directly related to the rate of slowing that occurs.

[BrainFireBob]

There's also the fact that the Oath Rod accelerates the aging process, hence the "Springing back" of youth Aes Sedai underwent.

 

Binding cuts your life in half- the Aes Sedai consider older than 300 impossible. That means that a lifespan of around 600 wouldn't be uncommon among average strength channellers. There is a connection between how soon you slow, and how strong you are- and theoretically, the anagenic benefits could be related to strength/how often you channel.

 

From these and other facts in the series, we can roughly estimate that a century to a very strong channeller is a decade to a normal person, and that perhaps it's aging 1 year for every seven for average channellers- whom you note hardly ever become ill, etc., and are unilaterally considered attractive when they've been channelling awhile, which makes one suppose that since "Beauty" is often associated with appearing healthy, channelling gives them optimal health.

 

This is why Kiruna, etc., can't be anywhere near 300 years old, but Mesaana comments that she was 300 and "just into her middle years" in her first appearance. "Bound" Aes Sedai age at double the rate, or perhaps the anagenic benefits are halved.

 

So, Sorilea, who can barely channel- how old is she? One assumes very slight anagenic benefits, perhaps aging only a third as quickly, which easily makes her around Cadsuane's age, given her apparent age (mid 90s, at a guess).

[Beckon]

I just read the part in aCoS where Elayne is talking about how old must Reanne be to have so much gray hair. I don't have my books here but I could swear she said that all women slow at about the same age just at different paces based on ability.

 

having said that though Morgase can barely channel at all and still looks too young to have children as old as hers are.

[Luckers]

Luckers, try the prologue of ACoS? It's not really in character for Avi, and I don't think there's much in the way of WO PoVs.

 

Thanks, i will.

 

Cadsuane thinks that she would never meet someone as old as she, that is until she meets Sorelia. Luckers on what basis to do assume that a weak channeler slows at the same rate as a strong channeler? There seems to be some evidence to the contrary. Namely, Cadsuane was the strongest aes sedai prior to the wonder girls and is also legendary in her longevity. On the opposite end, Morgase is described as being very youthful for her age, but not so youthful that it is the first feature mentioned. I think it is very likely that strength is directly related to the rate of slowing that occurs.

 

Cadsuane makes her deduction based on the assumption that channelers only live to be around 300. This is not the case, but rather an effect of the Oath Rod. In effect she sensed great age around Sorilea, and places her in the oldest age braket she thought was possible.

 

Now Sorilea is not Morgase, who can't really channel. From what we see in KoD Morgase succeeds in touching the sourse perhaps in in four tries, and cannot hold it long. Its doubtful she channeled for more then a few minutes a week, and still we see her slowing. Now Sorilea can channel whenever she wants. She would have slowed.

 

Now you are correct that strength plays a part. In the Age of Legends Aes Sedai were known to have lived up to 750 years. Likely part of this was diet, and health care, but it would also be strength. Nevertheless the degree of loss of years in relation to strength would not cause that dramatic a loss. The very weak Aes Sedai live to be around 275. On average. Cadsuane lived to 300. Without the oaths the rand would likely be 600 to 650. Sorilea may not live as long as, say, Nynaeve will, but she is old.

 

Given her years she's somewhere between 400 and 600. Again, most likely she is closer to 600. Because whilst weak, she can channel to an effect, and whenever she wishes.

[World_of_Wheel_of_Time]

I am confused

I believe that "mathcraft" can't determine this, I'm sure RJ didn't write the book with a calculator in his hand.

I think that all these people are old, but you can't give an exact age

[World_of_Wheel_of_Time]

And plus, with Aes Sedai age is not mentioned, neither is it I believe with the aiel wise ones

Didn't your mother teach you not to ask other's ages??? :D :D :twisted:

[Luckers]

RJ did set out how slowing works, and the degree. And he does have ages for his characters, though we arn't nessasarily exposed to them.

 

We know enough to reason out a rough age for Sorilea. And we know Cadsuane's anyway.

[Blue]

i agree with Luckers about Sorilea's age.I agree with how he worked it out and she has to be older than Cadsuane and a good bit older too from Mins reaction. Min comments on how old she is (and is shocked that somebody could be so old, she doesnt say the exact age but we get the impression that she is extremely old) when she first sees her. She doesnt make any such comment about Cadsuane. I also think that Melaine is around 35 regardless of her ability. Just thought id add my two cents worth.

[Fryn]

A couple of wrenches for you. Its been a while since I have read the books. However from what I remember the women with very large potentials age slower and start aging slower earlier. I'll give a couple of examples.

 

Nyv - Its mentioned that she began aging slower earlier than the average Aes Sedai. It's too early to determine whether she will age at a slower rate however. (I think Suian mentions this but I'm not positive)

 

Alivia - Is over 400 years old but no references make her appear as if she is old in appearance. At least not as old as many of the other Aes Sedai that are much younger than she is.

 

Tuon - Hasn't even embraced the source however started aging slow at the age of around 13 - 14 (Mat originally thinks of her around this age when in truth they are around the same age). For some reason just training damane has triggered the age reduction. Since it is never mentioned that trainers normally age slower than normal, I would guess that her potential with saidar would be leaps and bounds over even Alivia.

 

My guess this is linked with the royal family and most of the Empresses live for a long and abnormal amount of time. There are a couple references with the seachan saying may the empress live forever, which on the surface implies their loyalty, however it could also lend to longer life spans as they believe they will outlive a normal person.

 

 

This is more in response to when women start to age slower. At least for nyv and Tuon it appears to be much earlier than after 5 years. Tuon likely being just after the last testing of the collar that all seachan female go through (Age 13?).

[Luckers]

A couple of wrenches for you. Its been a while since I have read the books. However from what I remember the women with very large potentials age slower and start aging slower earlier. I'll give a couple of examples.

 

This is true, and we did address this. The degree of slowing is increased by the strength in the power. In the Age of Legends the average age for Aes Sedai was around 650 to 700. Strong Aes Sedai like LTT or the Forsaken sometimes made it to as old as 750. At best this means that the range is no more then a hundred years.

 

This is backed up by the Aes Sedai of modern times, albeit in the mode of the Oath Rod bound. The very weak Aes Sedai expect to live to at least over 250 barring unnatural causes. Cadsuane and Meilyn who were both strong, reached 300. Again, only a limited dissidence between the ultimate age of a weak channeler and a strong.

 

If a woman can touch the source any time she wants, and channels often enough, she slows. Even though Sorilea is weak, she has slowed. That means that given her apparent age she must at least be over 450. Likely she is somewhere around 575.

 

Nyv - Its mentioned that she began aging slower earlier than the average Aes Sedai. It's too early to determine whether she will age at a slower rate however. (I think Suian mentions this but I'm not positive)

 

Nynaeve is strong, her slowing is more pronounced. She began channeling at 16 when she healed Egwene's breakbone fever. She is currently 26 and has been channeling for 10 years. She appears around 20. That means in 10 years she has aged 4. This is never compared, however, with weaker women.

 

Alivia - Is over 400 years old but no references make her appear as if she is old in appearance. At least not as old as many of the other Aes Sedai that are much younger than she is.

 

She is constantly described as having wrinkles, or the beginning thereof. Roughly comprable with a fifty year old woman who is ageing well.

 

Tuon - Hasn't even embraced the source however started aging slow at the age of around 13 - 14 (Mat originally thinks of her around this age when in truth they are around the same age). For some reason just training damane has triggered the age reduction. Since it is never mentioned that trainers normally age slower than normal, I would guess that her potential with saidar would be leaps and bounds over even Alivia.

 

That is not true, Tuon has not slowed, nor do any sul'dam. Mat's original misconception is due to her size, not her looks. She is a small woman. Upon seeing her closer he changes his mind, and says she does have a woman's face.

 

This is more in response to when women start to age slower. At least for nyv and Tuon it appears to be much earlier than after 5 years. Tuon likely being just after the last testing of the collar that all seachan female go through (Age 13?).

 

Again, Tuon has not slowed, and Nynaeve seems to have slowed after around three and a half years at around nineteen and a half. But again, she is stronger then the average channeler. On average it is around five years for slowing to begin.

[Beckon]

Elayne spells it out in plain english in CoS I think after they first meet the Kin. She's trying to convey to Nynaeve how old Reanne must be. She says the slowing starts at about the same age for everyone and your strength in the Power only affects the degree to which you slow. Nynaeve is only 26 and already people get her age wrong by a good 5-6 years. I think it's Setalle who guesses her to be 21. Morgase is 42-ish and looks about the same age as Tallanvor who is in his mid 30s...so it's about the same error as in Nynaeve, maybe a bit more; say 7-8 years. So she's 16 years older than Nynaeve but has only shaved a year or 2 more off her apparent age.

[cloglord]

Kirstian is stronger than average for aes sedai, she is at least 300 years old, she appears to be around 30. (This all comes from the beggining of WH.)

 

Melaine is among the strongest wiseones. She appears to be around 30. So why why is it so hard to believe that she is pushing 300? It is a direct and fairly concrete comparison.

[Cybertrolloc]

Kirstian is stronger than average for aes sedai' date=' she is at least 300 years old, she appears to be around 30. (This all comes from the beggining of WH.)

 

Melaine is among the strongest wiseones. She appears to be around 30. So why why is it so hard to believe that she is pushing 300? It is a direct and fairly concrete comparison.[/quote']

What are some things about Melaine that would make you think she's a great deal older than she appears? Just because she could be... (I'd think dig through her parts in the middle of the series, see if there's any of her siblings/relatives around, what info there is on her younger days, etc...)

[Luckers]

The way she is treated by the other wise ones, as well as her slip ups, both suggest youth. And im not sure i agree about the apparent age summary of kristan and Melaine either.