Rand, LTT and the taint

[Beowolf]

^ Agreed. Though I think it's "Taint causes Insanity, Insanity causes LTT". The taint does of course, indirectly cause LTT then, so it all works out. :D

[Beckon]

In both Mat and birgitte we see the clear cause of their uniqueness. A direct action or influence. Same with Rand--the taint. Using Rand's nature, on the other hand, strikes me as a bit wishy-washy. I mean, you can use it for anything. "Why is Rand tall." "Because he's a directly reborn hero, and they have to look heroic." "Why is Rand getting so moody?" "Because he's a directly reborn hero, and thats bound to make anyone a little cranky." I mean, the fact that Rand is Aiel, and under a lot of stress provide us with answers to both of those, but then so does the taint.

 

The taint is just as wishy-washy. You can use it to explain any out of the ordinary behavior committed by any male who can channel. Rand's ability to actually converse with LTT and LTT's ability to actually assume control over Rand's actions is MORE than a crazy voice in his head. There's a phenomena at work here beyond what can be explained with "eh, he's nuts".

 

I do understand the assumption that LTT's voice being there is normal or even good. I helped Rand in a lot of ways.

 

Nowhere did I say it's normal. My entire point is that you can't say what's NORMAL for The Dragon Reborn because his is a unique situation of being reborn according to prophesy for a specific purpose.

 

If this was a factor then LTT would have experienced the previous dragon, and you can be sure he would have been pulled from office the second he was.

 

No he wouldn't necessarily have been aware of his previous incarnation because a) he was sane until right before he died and b) he wasn't the messiah. Note my use of the word "aware". I'm not saying I think the taint plays no part. I think the taint is erroding the barrier in Rand's mind that would keep LTT in his subconscious.

[Luckers]

Agreed. Though I think it's "Taint causes Insanity, Insanity causes LTT". The taint does of course, indirectly cause LTT then, so it all works out.

 

Well, insanity isn't really a state. I think its more that the tain destabalizes people. And that their unstable mind can manifest any number of strange mental issues.

 

The taint is just as wishy-washy. You can use it to explain any out of the ordinary behavior committed by any male who can channel. Rand's ability to actually converse with LTT and LTT's ability to actually assume control over Rand's actions is MORE than a crazy voice in his head. There's a phenomena at work here beyond what can be explained with "eh, he's nuts".

 

Except this isn't just 'out of the ordinary' behaviour. This is a specific mental abnormality in a man exposed to something that specifically causes mental abnormalities, and you want to suggest there is no causal link?

 

No he wouldn't necessarily have been aware of his previous incarnation because a) he was sane until right before he died and b) he wasn't the messiah. Note my use of the word "aware". I'm not saying I think the taint plays no part. I think the taint is erroding the barrier in Rand's mind that would keep LTT in his subconscious.

 

I'm sorry, im confused, because thats exactly what im saying. The taint is eroding the natural barriers that seperate facet personalities of the soul. Where does Rand's unique nature as a prophesized rebirth come in?

[Beckon]

I'm sorry, im confused, because thats exactly what im saying. The taint is eroding the natural barriers that seperate facet personalities of the soul. Where does Rand's unique nature as a prophesized rebirth come in?

 

If LTT is a "facet personality" then he's there whether Rand is insane or not. The taint makes him aware of it which is exactly what I've been saying.

 

Now here's you a page or two ago saying, "but if LTT is inherent to Rand then why didn't the original LTT complain of the same problem?

 

If this was a factor then LTT would have experienced the previous dragon, and you can be sure he would have been pulled from office the second he was.

 

At which point I begin listing the ways Rand is unique both with reference to LTT and to the other Asha'man. The taint makes him different from the original LTT. The prophesied rebirth, and being tied to the pattern make him different from other male channellers who aren't conversing with their other personalities.

 

Maybe the presence of a "facet personality" is unique to Rand. Maybe it's there for all those tied to the Pattern. Maybe it's there for everyone. The only thing I've ever tried to say is that LTT's personality is not directly generated by the taint. The taint is what's making him AWARE of it.

[Luckers]

If LTT is a "facet personality" then he's there whether Rand is insane or not. The taint makes him aware of it which is exactly what I've been saying.

 

Yes... he is... just as all other souls facet personalities are present--as Semirhage shows. It is only when a persons mental state is destabalized by something that a previous facet personality exerts itself... In Rands case, the taint.

 

I'm sorry, but i still dont get your point. How exactly does rand nature as a prophesized being specifically influence the manifestation of a previous personality of his soul?

 

Now here's you a page or two ago saying, "but if LTT is inherent to Rand then why didn't the original LTT complain of the same problem?

 

Quote:

If this was a factor then LTT would have experienced the previous dragon, and you can be sure he would have been pulled from office the second he was.

 

 

At which point I begin listing the ways Rand is unique both with reference to LTT and to the other Asha'man. The taint makes him different from the original LTT. The prophesied rebirth, and being tied to the pattern make him different from other male channellers who aren't conversing with their other personalities.

 

I'm sorry... i trully dont understand. Your saying the taint caused his mental state to destabalize to the point that he manifested a previous facet personality--something that is perfectly normal in unstable mentalities--and yet you seem to be saying that this is soully because of Rands unique nature as reborn individual...

 

I don't see the connection.

 

Maybe the presence of a "facet personality" is unique to Rand.

 

Umm, it isn't. this is stated by Semirhage.

 

Maybe it's there for all those tied to the Pattern. Maybe it's there for everyone. The only thing I've ever tried to say is that LTT's personality is not directly generated by the taint. The taint is what's making him AWARE of it

 

Umm... it IS there for everyone... so im confused. And the taint has drawn it out in Rand... so again, im confused.

[Beckon]

When I said originally that LTT was because of the nature of Rand's rebirth, I hadn't fully thought it out. That's my fault and I should have reread my own previous posts before arguing further. However:

 

I'm sorry, im confused, because thats exactly what im saying. The taint is eroding the natural barriers that seperate facet personalities of the soul.

 

If this was a factor then LTT would have experienced the previous dragon, and you can be sure he would have been pulled from office the second he was.

 

The second is you responding to my assertion that Rand is carrying around a "latent" personality. I was not talking about Rand's AWARENESS of this latent personality. I was referring only to the existence of it (granted for the wrong reason but that isn't the point). Please explain to me how those two quotes don't contradict each other.

[Paladin]

OK I am trying to get my thoughts collected on this entire issue.

 

I believe that LTT is real.

 

From all the evidence that we have it would seem that the Pattern itself is conscious. It can evaluate a person's life and see whether that person deserves to be bound to the horn, to be called back to battle for the light etc.

the pattern also strives to create a balance between the light & the dark. Usually by causing people to become Ta'veren. Now the pattern has to pick the right person at the right time in the right situation in order for thier Ta'verenness to have the desired effect and return balance.

 

this to me is proof that the pattern is counscious. and from evidence from both Moiraine & Herrid Fell we know that the pattern strives for balance between the Light & the Dark.

 

Now LTT before the bore was drilled, was an Aes Sedai with all the training that he could get in the AOL. He was also a military leader and a Tactition. And a politician. All of these things he had been trained for and he had litteraly centuries worth of experience in.

 

When the Bore was opened and the pattern needed a leader of the light to balance the DO. LTT was made Ta'veren by the pattern to battle the DO and maintain the balance.

 

In the current age, the pattern has caused LTT to be reborn, as he was reborn in the AOL to battle the DO, again to keep the pattern in balance. BUT this time the LTT/Dragon soul was reborn into someone who had no training in any of the skills needed to battle the DO and no experience. a Teenager off a farm in the middle of nowhere. Not a military leader, not a fully trained Aes Sedai, not a polititian. a Shepherd.

 

Which is why I believe the Pattern placed the counciousness of LTT in Rand's head, to maintain the balance. so that instead of a shepherd from the middle of nowhere fighting the DO, which would be a completely unbalanced confrontation. it is a shepherd from the middle of nowhere with all the knowledge & experience of the previous Dragon to aid him. a balanced confrontation.

 

Unfortunately, LTT is insane, whether from the taint or the mental shock of realising that he had killed his entire family. But the knowledge & experience is still there and that knowledge has helped Rand numerous times.

 

I know Rand is starting to drift into insanity because of the taint, but I do not believe that LTT is part of it.

 

I know this wont convince many of you, but from what we've seen regarding the nature of the patern it makes sense to me.

[Phiotr AlManera]

I get what you're saying Paladin and it makes sense but I have another vision on this.

the pattern also strives to create a balance between the light & the dark. Usually by causing people to become Ta'veren

The pattern does balance, but not in terms of dark and light. If we look at the effects of Ta'veren around Rand we can see that sometimes people live or die, get rich or get poor, take certain decisions or not,...

But dead, poverty,... aren't Dark things. They are normal, part of life. The Pattern balances life. The Pattern brings ORDER to nature. The DO seeks CHAOS. So the Pattern will try to balance the chaos brought by the DO, not the Dark itself because this has no meaning in an individual thread.

I'd say ta'veren are persons who need to achieve massive corrections into the pattern.

Ta’veren are part of the Wheel’s self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta’veren are created.

(RJ quote)

The chaos wich the DO tries to achieve is so massive it needs a strong corrective instrument, a Ta'veren.

I wouldn't call the pattern conscious, the Pattern is a part of the fysics of the creation. The Creator is conscious, the Pattern kind of ensures a 'law of fysics'.

It can evaluate a person's life and see whether that person deserves to be bound to the horn, to be called back to battle for the light etc.

Perhaps, but perhaps these people just mark themself by doing good things over and over again in their different lives, thus becoming more 'shiny' threads in the pattern.

this to me is proof that the pattern is counscious

Not to me

 

If I'm not mistaken, the Dragon's only born once every 3000 years. Rand is LTT reborn, therefore it's not such a coïncidence that Rand has the memories of LTT. It's not such a divine gift. Also we know from Semirhage that (crazy) people sometimes hear voices from past lives. I just don't need a conscious Pattern stepping in and granting divine favors...

Rand has some advantage from LTT, but mainly, LTT is a rambling madman. Rand supresses him most of the time, LTT seldomly shares valuable knowledge, LTT even tries to commit suicide,...

with all the knowledge & experience of the previous Dragon to aid him

Well...

[Luckers]

Quote:

If this was a factor then LTT would have experienced the previous dragon, and you can be sure he would have been pulled from office the second he was.

 

 

The second is you responding to my assertion that Rand is carrying around a "latent" personality. I was not talking about Rand's AWARENESS of this latent personality. I was referring only to the existence of it (granted for the wrong reason but that isn't the point). Please explain to me how those two quotes don't contradict each other.

 

No, that is me stating that LTT manifesting itself had nothing to do with Rand as a reborn person. Of course LTT's existence shows that Rand's soul has previous incarnations--that seemed self evident to me. I mean its inherent to the metaphysical structure of the novels.

 

And how does it contradict each other? If Rand manifesting LTT's personality was a function of his nature as the Dragon, than so too would LTT have manifested one or another of the facets.

 

In the current age, the pattern has caused LTT to be reborn, as he was reborn in the AOL to battle the DO, again to keep the pattern in balance. BUT this time the LTT/Dragon soul was reborn into someone who had no training in any of the skills needed to battle the DO and no experience. a Teenager off a farm in the middle of nowhere. Not a military leader, not a fully trained Aes Sedai, not a polititian. a Shepherd.

 

Which is why I believe the Pattern placed the counciousness of LTT in Rand's head, to maintain the balance. so that instead of a shepherd from the middle of nowhere fighting the DO, which would be a completely unbalanced confrontation. it is a shepherd from the middle of nowhere with all the knowledge & experience of the previous Dragon to aid him. a balanced confrontation.

 

Unfortunately, LTT is insane, whether from the taint or the mental shock of realising that he had killed his entire family. But the knowledge & experience is still there and that knowledge has helped Rand numerous times.

 

I know Rand is starting to drift into insanity because of the taint, but I do not believe that LTT is part of it.

 

I know this wont convince many of you, but from what we've seen regarding the nature of the patern it makes sense to me.

 

We've never seen the pattern manifest itself in such a blunt manner in the past. I'm sorry, i don't see it. We have a specific mental instability, Rand hearing LTT, and we have something that specifically causes mental instability, being the taint. Rand was exposed to the taint, and in turn developed a mental instability.

 

Its seems to me to be a fairly solid line of cause and effect. And, just as a side point, it doesn't make LTT any less real.

[reyler]

And how does it contradict each other? If Rand manifesting LTT's personality was a function of his nature as the Dragon' date=' than so too would LTT have manifested one or another of the facets.[/quote']

 

I'm not taking sides here, I just wanted to comment on this one.

 

Lews Therin was the Dragon, but he wasn't The Dragon, if you follow. Lews Therin wasn't the "Chosen One". At least, not in the high-profile prophesied way Rand is. It may be that he was never meant to be the one that bricked up the Dark One for the next 26,000 years. That may be the function his soul serves, but is that his function in every incarnation? If Lews Therin was just an incarnation to set up the mythological level of the Rand incarnation, a preliminary incarnation, there may have been no need for voices.

 

I do so hope that was clear enough. It seemed to come out a bit muddled.

[Luckers]

I think i get what you mean. But im not entirely sure we can differentiate in this manner. It is the actions of the Dragon soul as a whole that have curtailed the Dark One, then and now. And if other people are more aware of it now then they were in the Age of Legends... well i dont see how that can alter the nature of that soul in any way.

[Beckon]

And how does it contradict each other? If Rand manifesting LTT's personality was a function of his nature as the Dragon, than so too would LTT have manifested one or another of the facets.

 

You said facet personalities of the soul because EVERYONE is reborn. I said it was a facet personality because Rand is THE Dragon, the savior, the messiah. Whatever the underlying cause we're both saying it's a latent personality which is taking advantage of Rand's mental instability to actually communicate with him and even assume control of his body.

 

Except that YOU keep insisting that if it was because Rand is THE Dragon that LTT would also have experienced it. You keep addressing it as if I was saying that Rand's AWARENESS of LTT is solely because of the nature of his rebirth while I've stated several times that is NOT what I mean.

 

In your version (i.e. everyone has these facet personalities floating around because they're all reborn) LTT wouldn't have heard the voices because he's sane (for most of his life anyway). In my version the only thing that's different is the source of the facet personality. He still wouldn't have heard his prior self.

 

It's contradictory because you're either not seeing or ignoring the distinction I'm making between the PRESENCE of the personality and Rand's AWARENESS of it...

 

...Ignoring seems the more likely of the two since you have no trouble making the distinction in your own posts.

 

well i dont see how that can alter the nature of that soul in any way.

 

You do it again here...He's talking about the nature of the soul's rebirth in Rand and it's purpose in this Age and you turn it into the nature of the soul itself. Rand's purpose in this incarnation is to put a FINAL end to the DO so that by the time the 1st Age comes around again the DO is forgotten. Rand is the culmination of the previous Dragons (perhaps even in terms of previous revolutions of the wheel since there's all this talk of the DO unmaking the wheel this time). What I'm saying is that because of that the pattern has woven in this extra tool, this well of knowledge about the AoL, channelling, the Forsaken etc. in order to better combat the chaos the DO is trying to sow. The effect of the taint is that Rand is experiencing it as a voice in his head instead of absorbing the knowledge on a subconscious level.

 

Edit: To hone this idea:

What I'm saying is that because of that the pattern has woven in this extra tool, this well of knowledge about the AoL, channelling, the Forsaken etc. in order to better combat the chaos the DO is trying to sow.

 

Perhaps in addition to simply helping Rand it's also because of the Forsaken being bound/escaping. The presence of people still living who were contemporaries of the prior incarnation of Rand's soul makes LTT's memories and knowledge more pertinent to Rand's purpose. He's in a unique situation of having to maneuver against people who personally knew the original LTT. These people were among the most knowledgable in an Age which was much more technologically advanced than the current age so the Pattern has given Rand access (again still the distinction between subconscious access and an actual voice talking in his head) to the knowledge of his prior self to even the playing field.

[Phiotr AlManera]

If I'm not mistaken, the Dragon's only born once every 3000 years. Rand is LTT reborn, therefore it's not such a coïncidence that Rand has the memories of LTT. It's not such a divine gift. Also we know from Semirhage that (crazy) people sometimes hear voices from past lives. I just don't need a conscious Pattern stepping in and granting divine favors...

Rand has some advantage from LTT, but mainly, LTT is a rambling madman. Rand supresses him most of the time, LTT seldomly shares valuable knowledge, LTT even tries to commit suicide,...

Quote:

with all the knowledge & experience of the previous Dragon to aid him

 

Well...

[Luckers]

You said facet personalities of the soul because EVERYONE is reborn. I said it was a facet personality because Rand is THE Dragon, the savior, the messiah. Whatever the underlying cause we're both saying it's a latent personality which is taking advantage of Rand's mental instability to actually communicate with him and even assume control of his body.

 

Except that YOU keep insisting that if it was because Rand is THE Dragon that LTT would also have experienced it. You keep addressing it as if I was saying that Rand's AWARENESS of LTT is solely because of the nature of his rebirth while I've stated several times that is NOT what I mean.

 

I'm sorry, but that strikes me as a pointless prevarication. We all know that souls have had other personalities in the wheel. We even know, despite what you say, that individuals other then Rand have had those personalities come to be er... AWARE (why caps?) of previous facet personalities.

 

The fact is that nothing about Rand nature as the Dragon has had any noticeable influence on this situation. The taint destabalized Rand's mental state to the point that a previous personality manifested itself... the fact that that personality was also a dragon... makes sense, does it not?

 

In your version (i.e. everyone has these facet personalities floating around because they're all reborn) LTT wouldn't have heard the voices because he's sane (for most of his life anyway). In my version the only thing that's different is the source of the facet personality. He still wouldn't have heard his prior self.

 

It's contradictory because you're either not seeing or ignoring the distinction I'm making between the PRESENCE of the personality and Rand's AWARENESS of it...

 

I don't see that destinction. All souls have previous personalities, not just Rands. This is established in the texts.

 

The abnormality we are discussing, or so i thought, was Rand's awareness of that personality, which is the only way in which he is different from anyone else. And has nothing to do with his nature as the Dragon... which, as far as i can tell, you agree with.

 

So why are we arguing this? The manifestation of LTT is caused by the taint, yes?

 

You do it again here...He's talking about the nature of the soul's rebirth in Rand and it's purpose in this Age and you turn it into the nature of the soul itself. Rand's purpose in this incarnation is to put a FINAL end to the DO so that by the time the 1st Age comes around again the DO is forgotten. Rand is the culmination of the previous Dragons (perhaps even in terms of previous revolutions of the wheel since there's all this talk of the DO unmaking the wheel this time). What I'm saying is that because of that the pattern has woven in this extra tool, this well of knowledge about the AoL, channelling, the Forsaken etc. in order to better combat the chaos the DO is trying to sow. The effect of the taint is that Rand is experiencing it as a voice in his head instead of absorbing the knowledge on a subconscious level.

 

See, this is where we get back to my issue. You seem to be suggesting that again, the manifestation of LTT has come about as a nessasary function as Rands nature as a Dragon.

 

I see this as untenable. Do you think LTT could have remained unaware of 'knowing' details of his previous lives. Do you Rand would have, without the taint and the open manifestation of LTT's voice, have not questioned the curious nature of the appearence of such knowledge?

 

But where is the evidence of any such function? What we have, near as i can tell, is a mental condition that exactly matches another mental condition, with no especial differences that can be tied to Rand's nature as the dragon. And we have all of this in a man exposed to something that causes abnormal mental conditions.

 

Where are the unexplained elements that suggest... what, fate? Function of the pattern?

 

Quote:

What I'm saying is that because of that the pattern has woven in this extra tool, this well of knowledge about the AoL, channelling, the Forsaken etc. in order to better combat the chaos the DO is trying to sow.

 

 

Perhaps in addition to simply helping Rand it's also because of the Forsaken being bound/escaping. The presence of people still living who were contemporaries of the prior incarnation of Rand's soul makes LTT's memories and knowledge more pertinent to Rand's purpose. He's in a unique situation of having to maneuver against people who personally knew the original LTT. These people were among the most knowledgable in an Age which was much more technologically advanced than the current age so the Pattern has given Rand access (again still the distinction between subconscious access and an actual voice talking in his head) to the knowledge of his prior self to even the playing field.

 

I'm sorry, but thats completely at odds with what we've seen of the pattern, implying an intelligent intervention of something that seems only to act through instinct. Moreover, without evidence of this subconcious access, or unexplained elements of Rand's psychosis, i simply dont see this as viable.

 

Finally, i think you need to chill out. You've been a little hostile towards me--we may disagree, but its no reason to be rude.

[Beckon]

*tiptoes in*

 

Just ran across this passage, tLoC Ch. 28 Letters, toward the end of the chapter. Padan Fain PoV, emphasis mine of course:

 

"It was difficult for him to concentrate on one thing for long anyway. Except Rand al'Thor, of course. He could feel al'Thor, could point to him, this close. Al'Thor pulled at him, pulled till it hurt. There was a difference lately, a difference that had come suddenly, almost as if someone else had suddenly taken a partial possession of al'Thor, and in doing so pushed away a part of Fain's own possession. No matter. Al'Thor belonged to him."

 

*tiptoes out*

:twisted:

[reyler]

Hm, and here I'd always thought that referred to Alanna. Her bonding him was a lot more sudden than Lews Therin's gradual emergence. How Fain could be aware of either, I don't know, but that's neither here nor there.

[Beckon]

Hmph...maybe it was Alanna...

 

Foiled again :oops:

[Luckers]

Yeah i always thought it was Alanna.