I am new and have to get this off my chest and think this is the most appropriate thread to do it in.

 

Why I enjoyed this series – the detailed, amazing world RJ created. Why I dislike this series – the worldview of both authors where women are relegated to being second class

 

RJ was southern and educated at the citadel and BS is I believe mormon and there is a vein to this series imo in the attitudes towards women that seems to feed into the negative stereotypes of both southerners and mormons.

 

Egwene is the most blatant symbol of this. She is essentially the most powerful woman (I do not mean in terms of the one power) in the novel and what happens to her? She dies, and not even at the end of the novel! Her romance with Gawyn sucks and I do not even know what the point of Gawyn was as the poor guy really accomplished nothing by putting on those rings. There was no redemption for him. Perhaps it would have been more acceptable to some people if she had been a lesbian, which just feeds into another stereotype.

 

So she took down Taim, which is good, but he was one of the weakest forsaken, while a man who cannot even channel takes down Demandred. Really? From the beginning, Egwene was written to be someone who wanted more than village life, someone who wanted more for herself in life, why is this bad? Unlike the trio, particularly Mat, who all seemed to be handed their talents on a silver platter and did not have to work much to learn and cultivate their talents, Egwene had to learn and train from both the AS and the Aiel in order to become Amyrlin, and was punished often. She trained for like 3 whole books, but seemingly, the moral to this story is hard work does not count for much as long as you’re blessed with talent and male.

 

The best thing about Egwene was her intolerance of the Seanchan. If the Seanchan collared men, I wonder how accepting Rand would have been of that. When Rand compromised with Tuon on this point, I could not help thinking of slavery in the US when things like the Missouri compromise was passed. After all, THAT worked out real great, right? Ultimately what the Seanchan do IS slavery and that is evil. Rand says at the end that the dark one breaks people. That’s what the Seanchan do, do they not? It really does not make sense to have the Seanchan fight the dark one when they do his work for him. Tuon’s supposed innocence in this matter, saying that these women want to be collared is so full of crap considering the Seanchan CAPTURE women. I really do not know where RJ was going with the Seanchan, but to try to make Tuon innocent of what they do as if they really believe it is right is quite unbelievable. Tuon needed to be taken down a peg or eight, she never got her comeuppance.

 

I do not think I even need to talk about 3 women willing to share Rand. I think I may have a love/hate relationship with this series that is similar to perhaps RJ’s love/hate relationship with women.

Bravo.

 

Actually I'm not sure I'd drag stereotypical geographic or religious matters into it, but the rest is all completely true, for whatever reasons, right down to the love/hate.

 

 

I am new and have to get this off my chest and think this is the most appropriate thread to do it in.

 

Why I enjoyed this series – the detailed, amazing world RJ created. Why I dislike this series – the worldview of both authors where women are relegated to being second class

 

RJ was southern and educated at the citadel and BS is I believe mormon and there is a vein to this series imo in the attitudes towards women that seems to feed into the negative stereotypes of both southerners and mormons.

 

Egwene is the most blatant symbol of this. She is essentially the most powerful woman (I do not mean in terms of the one power) in the novel and what happens to her? She dies, and not even at the end of the novel! Her romance with Gawyn sucks and I do not even know what the point of Gawyn was as the poor guy really accomplished nothing by putting on those rings. There was no redemption for him. Perhaps it would have been more acceptable to some people if she had been a lesbian, which just feeds into another stereotype.

 

So she took down Taim, which is good, but he was one of the weakest forsaken, while a man who cannot even channel takes down Demandred. Really? From the beginning, Egwene was written to be someone who wanted more than village life, someone who wanted more for herself in life, why is this bad? Unlike the trio, particularly Mat, who all seemed to be handed their talents on a silver platter and did not have to work much to learn and cultivate their talents, Egwene had to learn and train from both the AS and the Aiel in order to become Amyrlin, and was punished often. She trained for like 3 whole books, but seemingly, the moral to this story is hard work does not count for much as long as you’re blessed with talent and male.

 

The best thing about Egwene was her intolerance of the Seanchan. If the Seanchan collared men, I wonder how accepting Rand would have been of that. When Rand compromised with Tuon on this point, I could not help thinking of slavery in the US when things like the Missouri compromise was passed. After all, THAT worked out real great, right? Ultimately what the Seanchan do IS slavery and that is evil. Rand says at the end that the dark one breaks people. That’s what the Seanchan do, do they not? It really does not make sense to have the Seanchan fight the dark one when they do his work for him. Tuon’s supposed innocence in this matter, saying that these women want to be collared is so full of crap considering the Seanchan CAPTURE women. I really do not know where RJ was going with the Seanchan, but to try to make Tuon innocent of what they do as if they really believe it is right is quite unbelievable. Tuon needed to be taken down a peg or eight, she never got her comeuppance.

 

I do not think I even need to talk about 3 women willing to share Rand. I think I may have a love/hate relationship with this series that is similar to perhaps RJ’s love/hate relationship with women.

Bravo.

 

Actually I'm not sure I'd drag stereotypical geographic or religious matters into it, but the rest is all completely true, for whatever reasons, right down to the love/hate.

 

yes we have been contesting this point back and forth for years, but here are couple of things that you chose to ignore in your excessive love for poor old underrated, misunderstood and ill treated eggy dearest. You cannot compare her to Rand he is dying for people who want him to die and are not ready to acknowledge that he exists. There is a legend that one of the users use here which says something about how ashamen chose a life of horror and painful death that will get them no thanks. Rand is the first Ashaman and he is making the greatest sacrifice of them all. Your behaviour is typical of a Randlander. You want to castigate him for something that is not his fault. Another thing that you again conveniently chose to ignore are all the wonderful female characters that enriched the story and were the favourites of everyone. Women like Nynaeve, Moiraine, Siuan and she may not be universally liked, but cads is another fabulous female character and I have not even started on Other nationalities and culture groups like Aiel. So When you go around blaming all of us of bigotry and ride your high moral horse. Please do keep in mind that we are not all dimwits and nincompoops like Our exalted eggy the fabulous one. 

sutt, Fionwe and rest of the crew have been fighting Eggy wars since time immemorial. So expecting them to give it up is like expecting me to start loving the way RJ wrote this character. Therefore, I am nort going to try and convince them any more. However, there were couple of things that stood out in my mind. First was the decision to kill Eggy could not have come from BS as RJ very clearly pointed out right from the beginning that he knew the fate of all of the main characters. It meant she and Gawyn were supposed to die. However, the method to achieve that death did not quite justify the entire buildup. It also made sense that she was built up as the counterweight to Dragon right from the beginning. She made quite a few sacrifices to achieve what she did. So for Pattren to spare Rand had to take someone in his place and I guess eggy made the last sacrifice for that as well. I can feel these things and I am sure most of you will also feel that. However, the story line written for her do mnpt depict that. She was just another powerful channeler fighting her heart out with nothing to lose who fought until her heart gave way. I mean that everyone knew that I never liked the character, but I just could not resolve the way the character was handled even at the end.

Hi people before you ask no i haven't read the book. Do you know what the sad part is? When BS started I promised that I will read his every book if he killed EGGY te mighty one and I guess I am caught lol It seems RJ created her solely to disturb me

Mik another great theory, but we have come to expect nothing else frpom you one thing though man you really need to get some life outside wot. you are spending entirely too much time for this to be healthy

Some good stuff overall in your post above but had to call this part out as totally false. It would seem you just skipped the entire "Dark Rand" storyline if you believe this quote to be the case.

Dark Rand storyline wasn't Rand giving into the temptation of using his power for personal gain. It was Rand being depressed and emotionally wounded as a reaction to bad guys trying to kill him and his loved ones all the time. When Rand goes to destroy the Seanchan at Ebou Dar, he's still doing it to save the world, instead of saving himself or profiting from it. His methods (almost) change, but his convictions do not. He's still a passive vessel that goes from place A to place B killing the bad guys to save the world, because I must.

 

The first thing Rand should do is tell himself "Why the hell am I, of all people, denied the chance to live a normal life with friends, a girlfriend, and a steady job that pays well? Why does there have to be a Chosen One that dies to save the world, and how do I even know these prophecies are real and true? To hell with this, I'm young and handsome, I have god-like powers, I control five nations a huge fleet of speedy ships and ten tribes of fearsome savages - let's partay, and if Aes Sedai are so competent they can battle the Dark One all by themselves. And anyone who comes after me will be thrown out as a pile of smoking ashes." That would make the kidnapping and beating he got at the hands of Elaida's Aes Sedai logical and in some ways deserved, not to mention the suspicion and opposition he gets from Egwene, Cadsuane, and just about everyone else he meets.

Any evidence for that they can join cads and company? I remember a scene where Sorilea comes in and asks all of her apprentice AS for want of better word to leave and they do because they are under order from Rand to obey them who is their liege lord. To them they are not just words. They mean it from their very fabric of being. Verrin was the exception. She could pick up and leave whenever she wanted. From what I have read others of them that are not dark friends cannot leave. Therefore, your argument that they can join Cads and company whenever they want is moot.

Come on guys knock it off He is new Sutt he will learn and Saken come on man as you yourself so aptly put everyone is entitled to their opinion. Sutt Saken offered a very valid point in the argument Sf Channelers are the weakest in WT they have no worth or value there and they always knew they were sacrificial lambs. So, they going back really does not count. Question is would someone of a Talaan's strength would like to go back? In my opinion no

You people are missing the most fundamental point Do you think Mogadisu, Lahore or any other third world country do not have basic amenities like electricity, wireless phones or other basic necessities? Sorry to disabuse you, but they have the basic necessities. They are treated there as venerated and respected citizens. Everyone loves and respects them. they just cannot adjust into that society. I t seems to provincial to them, it is not the matter of facilities, which are nearly as good as anywhere else in the world.At least for these foreign qualifies professionals. What they do not get there is the sense of camaraderie that they developed with their peers at their boarding schools. We are going of on a tangent. As i said before it was just an example s to how the girls coming from those backgrounds would see it. Remember it was in Eggy's POV that going through WT's training was a breeze when compared to way Aiel's treated their apprentices. Similarly, when you talk about SF, you are talking about ship mistresses, there wind finders and masters of blades. Who are the elite of their society. Deck hands do not get treated like that. Case in point is the only Apprentice that comes in contact with WT culture wants to join it. I am not talking about BS here. I am talking about That scene which was written by RJ I think and name of the girl was Talaan from memory. She wanted to leave the SFs and go to Tar Valon to study. I mean most of us have been following Rj and Wot near to two decades. Have you ever seen him mentioning anything without reason? For me that was very subtle foreshadowing for things to come. He was setting the stage for this scene. Why I love this world is due to its intricacy and small details. It has a lot of grey areas. We see Good guys doing bad things and bad guys doing good things. Eggy personifies these paradoxes. She is a brilliant leader at one moment and complete jerk in next. In my opinion all of you people who insist on her Mary Sueness are doing a disservice both to her as a character and RJ as a writer. I have said it before that I would not change anything about this series if I have a choice. I hated the long waits and pages of dresses smoothing and wrinkled brows as much as the next guy, but without them this series would have been just another fantasy series,. We are debating it here shows that it is not and we disagreeing on the interpretation of character is a tribute to RJ and his writing prowess. I still think that he wrote this character deliberately like that. He wanted Eggy's personality to have that ambiguity.

oh really? I mean have you ever heard of a thing called bleakness. That chapter about the toh that could never be met what was her name Nakaomi or whatever. Do you not think that serving Aes Sedais and being one of them will not lighten up their toh? Yes, I know what the WOs think, but we are talking about a new generation of people. Eggy knows they have issues and she is out to exploit it as well as she can. I at least always read that making AS DaSatang was a part of an attempt by the WOs to undermine them. To make an average Aiel feel that AS are not a big deal. Eggy knows all that and she is taking advantage of their insecurities.

That is what I am telling you these people come back, but cannot stay back. They get used to opulence for want of a better word. I do not know about the intent of the writers, but she is a provincial and she knows exactly how other provincials will believe. Why do you people want to ignore the line "I will tie you with bonds of silk". What does it mean?

PS I do not want to make it political I used Pakistan as an example and let us leave it at that.

Problem with you people is that you are talking from an academic POV and I am talking from experience. Let me stretch the analogy,. Do you have any idea how many students who come to U.S.A for studying on scholarships from different countries go back to settle in U.S.A after they have served their bonded terms? I do. nearly 90% of them and this is not a joke. Out of my session of 260 students 45 of us went to study In U.S.A and Europe on different scholarships. I am the only one left in Pakistan all others are living and working in Europe and US they only comeback for visits and holidays. Thereofre. I am sorry, but you are not qualified t pass a judgement on a situation you know nothing about. As, I said before. Go and check the stats.

One more thing when they live in Andor they are living in their tents, among their own people with a little or no chance of being influenced by any outsider. We have already seen that Sf girl wanting to run away to become an AS so there is a precedence.

Egwene's job is to look out for the interest of the White Tower. If she got the better of the WO and Windfinders in the deal - good for her. If the Aiel apprentices prefer Tar Valon to the desert, more power to them. It's their life and their choice.

Refute me with stats show me how many people Go from Europe or U.S.A to live in say Somalia Or pick any other country from third world. People in those countries love their countries and they are absolutely good people, but someone used to standard of living in a westren world cannot live their very long. Maybe a few days as an adventure, but not to live their. If you think my idea is ridiciulous go ask any of the immigrants clogging the streets of New York, London or Any other city of Europe that how many of then will like to go back to their countries?

Yar we have had this discussion before I am sorry for repeating myself. Let us take a parallel We have already seen that Seafolk girl running away to join WT. How many novices have run to join SF or the aiels? Tar Valon is the greatest city in the world, how many young apprentices will not carry the memory of it with them back to their ships and sandy hovels how many of them will be able to resist it? If you do not believe me look at the stats from Africa and Asia to US and Europe. We do not even have a comparable fraction of people moving from US and Europe to Africa or Asia. She is counting on exactly that effect to hold the hearts and minds of future WOs and SF channelers. That was exactly what she alluded to when she said, "I will bind you with silk" or something to that effect. Now try reading them together that she will want to come these provincial young women to world's greatest metropolis and she wants her sophisticated initiates to go live in their hovels and ships. I for one cannot read it as a benevolent move to promote harmony and peace and understanding.

yar sut we have had this discussion a million times at least well subtract few hundreds but we have all agreed that she has had a very shoddy character development both from RJ and BS. She was an unlikeable character right form the beginning, but so were so many other characters. I mean Mat would not have been among anyone's favorite character in first three books. For me at least his first best scene was his fight with Galad and Gawyn. Look at him I can bet he is among the top three characters for almost 90% of the posters. There are other characters like nyn, Siuan was very overbearing at the beginning, but she is again a well liked character now. I think it was ELRIC IN AN EARLIER POST WHO POINTED OUT QUITE RIGHTLY THAT EVERY CHARACTER HAS AN ALTER EGO THAT SERVES TO BRING HIM or her DOWN A COUPLE OF PEGS WHEN HE or she STARTS GETTING TOO BIG FOR HER BREACHES. Eggy on the other hand does not allow anyone that privilege. So the fans take it upon themselves to play that role

I have said it an million time in these discussions and I will say it again that she is a bitch and as for refuting all this it is just the Eggy fan boys and girls who think that anything was proved in favor of eggy. She is a poorly written and developed character if you want people to like her. I did a detailed post on this thread sometime ago and I am not going to do it all over again or maybe I will near the release of the book. As for Perrin and Rand whining, you have to understand that they are the characters that has behaved consistently through out unlike eggy who will change with the next change of dress. They have reasons for doing what they are doing all the characters had excellent character development except eggy. Don't get me started on it all over again. I know what I am rambling will make little or no sense to anyone. but thats just me

One of these days I am going to find time to do a detailed post on the eggy dearest. Mark my words.

@Feanor welcome to Dm and just a word to wise you have kicked hornets' nest literally. Any way enjoy your stay and have a great time righ tup to the release of AMOL and beyond

Ingtar's is one of my favorite quotes and scene. One that obviously comes to mind is " creator created women to pleas the eyes and trouble the mind". Another one is " Women are like Sun, you cannot live without them but they extract a price"

you blame me of going of on the tangent while this whole thread has missed the circle by a country mile. I mean I do not need book to tell you that when Aiel abandoned the way of leaf they left everything behind. It meant that only ones left with chora cuttings were Jenn Aiel. When thy died out there was already just one tree left. If you remember the Rand's journey through glass columns he saw Rhuidean without mist it invalidates that argument about th tr growing because it was in the shade due to mist in rhuidean. it must have been one of the last acts of those ancient Aes Sedai to create that barrier before they died. There is zero textual evidence in favor of this theory and if BS pulls of some stunt like that I am going to sue him.

Aes Sedai are far from the most powerful political force, that force, as always, lies with the people.

 

I don't quite get this? I understand the underlying point about people but AS have been the undisputed most powerful political force in Randland for 3,000 years. That is a fact.

Aes Sedai are far from the most powerful political force, that force, as always, lies with the people.

 

I don't quite get this? I understand the underlying point about people but AS have been the undisputed most powerful political force in Randland for 3,000 years. That is a fact.

How many time do you have to say that and on how many threads. Com on sutt ease up my man.

no I can understand as I said I am too lazy it is too much bother to go hunting for quotes but if you insist i'll get them for you.

see there is no need to make fuss here is your quote though one I am mentioning includes Moiraine i'll get it tomorrow Thanks finns you just saved my you know what

Yar suttree lighten up man I'll get my tEotW tomorrow and sorry thom was present at SL but Rand did not do anything worth mentioning there did he? I ave always thought that particular viewing is related with TG it is past midnight in Lahore and I haven't slept in someting like 48 hours I cannot go rummaging through my books at this time of night and wake the wole house any way I am too lazy. But I do remember that Min viewing pretty vividly and I'll get you the page number and all the details tomorrow.

PS YAR means friend in Urdu and Punjabi

Thom was not present at SL