There is a slight flaw in everyone's logic regarding the song.  If we look back to the Aiel singing there were three parts to the "song" of memory.  The Aiel Sing their song as do those with the talent of having the "voice."  Next there are the Ogier and their contribution of the songs of growing bridging the gap between the Tinkers, and last there are the Greenmen dancing around with their "magic" at work.  Rand can sing the "song" under his breath and make things grow probably better than anyone else due to his connection with the land when he approaches Tuon for the second time. 

However, what is generally being said is in fact true, that the Tinkers are searching for something from the past called "the song" and they will only know it when they find it.  What they are searching in reality is a return to the old way where a majority of people follow the way of the leaf, or at least the majority respect it.  It will be a time when they can stop traveling and gather as a people once more and live in safety and without fear in and among people as in the days of old.  The song was stopped being sung by the Tinkers among all the turmoil for whatever reason.  Maybe the breaking created far too much chaos for them to sing and harvest crops in a single afternoon as food was a worry during the breaking as we see the Seeker fretting as his people feed Ogier they came across.  However, Tinkers in Rand's time seem to have an endless supply of vegetable soup which is so good apparently people attempted to infiltrate them to learn their secret recipe.    So, maybe they know the song of growing but it isn't the same as it isn't tied to the lore that they have of how things used to be and that is what they truly seek.

Perhaps everything is associated with the Creator that is pattern-related because the Creator created the Pattern...

I thought that Rand was the Pattern's champion to maintain the balance, because while the pattern is "good" it also allows the capacity for evil to a certain point.

I agree I think it's from the pattern.  I know the creator doesn't want to take a hand in things, but would seem a bit odd his supplying the OP to people trying to undo creation.

After reading this I had a sudden realization.  Naomi then must be an incarnation of the pattern itself, rather than having anything to do with the creator, as well as the voices Rand hears early on and then late in the series.

Jordan said many times, in many ways, that he was the creator of his work and he didn't want anyone messing about with it. It was a definite no on having anyone else finish the series until very near the end of his life, I'm thinking weeks, maybe days. and .... I'm not sure why that changed to ok but it did.

 

That's a legit stance, and he owed no one anything in terms of letting them use his creation to fiddle about. His widow supports his wishes, as she should. It counts for nothing what opening his intellectual property could do for the series or the fans or anyone. it was his call to make.

 

If the rights have been sold, the producers won't much care what she thinks, though. Which is also legit.

 

I think if there's a way to profit big, show gets made. If not, it waits. Not for Harriet's passing, but for circumstances to be right for making enough money to make it worthwhile.

Exactly.  They won't want competition, like GOT.  They will slide in while the whole fantasy community is screaming for more and yes, probably make a huge profit but that's okay because it means big budget and lots of advertising bringing in more money which will mean longevity.  Not another Seeker of Truth show.

He said Thom Grinswell. From Carysford IIRC.

 

Isn't it Carridin who recognize Mat through the window and say it to Sammael? Just before Mili Skane enters? Or something like that, it's a bit fuzzy

Mili is there and he looks out the window and time seems to freeze, and poof the forsaken is there as if summoned by the sighting of Mat.  Noel was the old man Mat speaks with outside as well.  He was also previously at the race track following Mili or maybe Mat.  When time resumes Carridin is standing elsewhere and Mili sort of does a doubletake wondering how in the middle of their conversation he went from one spot to clear across the room.

I am a big WOT fan. But to this day I have not read Perrin, Egwene and the wonder girls storylines. I really don't like

to read about girls. Am I a man chauvinist. My first read through I skipped almost everything else and only read

about Rand. I just cant connect to the other characters

I am a veteran of many rereads.  Rand used to be the one I would follow but I read everything in all of the books.  During many later rereads I would skip some of the annoying bath chapters or other chapters of the girls which were full of posturing and drama.  Still on other rereads I would follow Mat and Perrin's arcs more than I did those of Rand.  I feel that in the later half of the series Rand had less of a showing because of all the other POV's as the series grew.  Of course all those chapters were full of important happenings.  It was fun following the arcs of Mat and Perrin even though Perrin lacked confidence or was stubborn about being a blacksmith rather than the leader he was.   

eguanen? did you mean egeanin?

Sorry, I haven't seen the books in years, I listen to the audiobooks almost daily so it's hard to remember all the odd spellings of names.

Mat and Rand both think they can make decisions for others, and they see everything else as virtually a delay/distraction. They can be really without respect. They were both convinced Egwene was just too stupid to realise she wasnt the "real" Amyrlin, for example. In some ways they are almost as bad ad Cadsuane when it comes to expecting everyone to do whatever they think they should do, and not respecting that people have other plans. And at least Cadsuane is somewhat of a badass, even though she can be really unlikeable. (She and Rand are similiar in some ways.)

 

Mat's complaining gets on my nerves because he seems to believe himself and his missions are the only important things in the world. And I guess I also sort of dislike him because he is exactly the sort of guy I dislike in the real world, who is unable to see women as anything else than either a potential bedmate or someone who needs his help but is too stupid or stubborn to realise it, and who aggrandizes his own importance. He is a self-assigned white knight, although he complains about it, and it irks me. But by all means, he is not the only one in Randland who needs to be taken down a notch.

 

While Rand is horribly arrogant and often foolish, and Perrin both insecure and sometimes blind, their change in behaviour and the way they develop makes sense, considering the way the story goes. I dont think the same holds for Mat, but I am open for arguments.

 

I wouldnt say the women manipulated him into going to Ebou Dar, they merely knew he would not give up "taking them" to Caemlyn, and figured it was easiest if he comes along. He is incredible - those women, not even bound by the rod could take out most threats themselves, but he seems to consider them helpless. That way of thinking he is the only capable person is his worst trait IMO, but I guess it does have an appeal to quite a few people ;)

Spoilers ahead.  Mat only pursued women who were of like mind, who liked the company of a man as much as men like the company of women.  Any others that might have been of a mind eventually, he always used his winning smile and gave them a silver coin for their smiles.

And you have to remember, Mat hates work and battle.  He does everything he can to get out of those situations but the pattern thrusts him into them again and again and he meets them head-on despite his protests and complaints about it.  Remember him trying to flee the Band shortly after the battle for Carhien?  He ran into the White Lions and the others thought that he was leading them to another battle and they had an easy and sound victory.  It cemented his position with them even more following him becoming their permanent commander by saving them, and leading them into battle after battle before eventually killing couladin.  

Mat was totally manipulated into accompanying the girls to Ebou Dar.  This was shown with their holding Thom and Julien away from him, and the girls even met and talked about it.  Thom warned him that they were doing it and convinced Mat that it would be easier to give in than to try to force Elayne to return to Andor.  There were some subtleties, but it was pretty obvious.  They even didn't tell him that they would need a few days to reach the city leaving him and his men without provisions as another thumbed-nose to Mat trying to bring him down a peg, along with Elayne winning over his men.  I would also like to point out that he was bullied by the sisters, manipulated by many people while in Ebou Dar, and despite saving the lives of the Aes Sedai and spiriting them away, he was poorly treated by the women, hounded, starved(Tylin, anyone?)  My hat went off to him when he finally spanked Jolene later after leaving Ebou Dar.  Even Eguanen treated him badly and he helped her escape too.  However we do see that he gains respect from both Setalle Anan and the Red Sister.  When it comes down to it Mat wins us over because he is an average guy with a prankster streak who deals with the many adverse situations thrust upon him with deadpan complaints and humor and his skewed view of things.  I love the long-running joke between Rand, Mat, and Perrin that the others know women better than the current POV does.  

I say keep the Sharans, but foreshadow them a bit more clearly than the books do.  It may not involve much rewriting, as there are numerous places where they're mentioned and even a few of them seen, it can just be harder to catch it while reading about it, rather than seeing it portrayed on a screen.  Keep the suspicion around Taimandred, but make it more clear after it's debunked that Taim's anachronisms are affectations he picked up being trained by the real Demandred.

 

I have a feeling that the producers are going to want to keep more or less the same structure that RJ had, with the first three seasons being devoted to the first three books, for much the same reasons.  If the first season sucks and fails, they can cancel it there and still have a fairly "complete" story.  If it has moderate success they can keep going through the end of the Dragon Reborn, not pick it up after that, and still have a fairly "complete" story.  If it picks up enough viewers to keep going after that, then we'll start seeing some serious rejiggering of plots and characters, so they can wrap the whole thing up in 7 to 9 seasons.  It's pretty rare that any kind of fantasy/sci-fi series lasts that long, except the most popular, and I have a really hard time seeing anybody take it past ten seasons, no matter how popular it becomes, if only because they won't want to end up paying Friends-level of salaries for the main cast, on top of all the other expenses.

They can be introduced by Noal when he reminisces about places he's seen.  He can narrate and the screen can show the various places and things he is mentioning for visual effect, or flashbacks with another actor playing a younger version of himself. 

 

A lot of people were promised RAFO's and never had it answered in the books.  I think Alan and Maria released some clarifications and we were waiting on the companion to answer the rest and it didn't.  I'm with those still wanting to know, lol!

 

  But I really thinks leaving many things unanswered is way better than having answers in clay tablets

 

My biggest peeve is Thom's Second Best knives and the blue lightning.  We were RAFO'd and it wasn't answered.  I always suspected Thom came across some power-wrought knives, but later editions had that scene changed slightly to the flash happening as Thom met the Myrdraal.  Maybe the knives were special ones Lan spoke of that were weapons that used the OP.  Maybe they allowed him his Gleeman tricks and to remain spry in his old age.  Maybe not power wrought in that sense but Ter'angreal?

A lot of people were promised RAFO's and never had it answered in the books.  I think Alan and Maria released some clarifications and we were waiting on the companion to answer the rest and it didn't.  I'm with those still wanting to know, lol!

It is the Wikipedia page on RJ found here, mentioned at the end of the first paragraph.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Jordan

I also checked this out https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/2upv4d/mindblowing_secret_about_robert_jordan_revealed/ but wouldn't put much stock into it as it seemed to be the internet's version of a tabloid piece but it quotes the Wiki page.

Well when I heard that RJ said it in 2005 I start to think that maybe he did one of the Bourne novels after Ludlum passed away as his Estate did hire Ghost Writers to continue the Bourne series.  But is Bourne a thriler?  I can't think of anything else "International" from that time period.  RJ's quote stated he thought the book was good and he was a very modest man in some ways, especially when it came to his writing.  

I came upon some information today that I hadn't seen before on Wikipedia which revealed that RJ had written an "International Thriller" that was still believed to have been written by another author.  I did some research and saw that it stemmed from something he said at an interview at the 2005 Dragon Con.  I did some checking and couldn't find anything beyond a mention of this and one theory that didn't make any sense.  

As I don't have one of those fancy tv-show computers where I can run a search for bestselling International Thrillers, restrict it to material between the years of 1985-2005, and check all of Tor's authors and their affiliated labels with last names of authors starting with an O' or other Irish name he may have used as a pen name...so has anyone figured out what book/series it might be?  I saw some theories that he may have written the first three books of Game of Thrones but dismissed that as it isn't an "international" novel nor is it a "thriller."  If he wrote another fantasy novel I would think perhaps he wrote one of the Sword of Truth novels, like the one which named him by "mistake" as the copyright holder due to that.  But it isn't an international thriller unless RJ was being sarcastic or being very broad/liberal with the term.

Any Ideas?

from re-reading the scene, fire came out of Aginor's mouth and eyes.  not sure if Rand could have caused that at any time; or any channeler.

as far as I recall; Fire always started outside of its victims.

The fire that is witnessed is due to Ishy's exclusive use of nothing but the True Power.  It takes a physical toll on the body of those that wield it.  We see that those who begin touching it have mood swings and that Saa, black flecks, pass over the eyes which shows both that the forsaken has been allowed to use the DO's essence, and indicates they have used it a lot.  The flames come and go, and remember, IShy is mostly mad due to his time being so close to the pattern, spun out every thousand years for about forty years before being pulled in again.  He even dares to think of himself as Baalzamon, and most of the time when we see the flames is when he is in the boys' dreams or in T'A'R/World of Dreams and he can make this effect appear on himself.

Oops.  After all that I see the question was on the first two forsaken to appear.  The flames are correct, a channeler can burn someone from the inside out as well as blast them on the outside with fire, especially a fireball.  Rand did ignite some trollocs, making them burst into flame, and I believe a Fade was killed with flames coming out of his mouth as it was one of very few ways to kill it without having to wait until it died naturally. 

 

who is number three indeed,do you want an answer or was it a rhetorical question?

No spoilers, please.

 

I have a general idea of what's going to happen in the following books, but very, very general.  I don't want any specific plot details spoiled for me.

 

Currently at 57% of The Great Hunt

 

Just finished the reunion scene between Rand and Thom Merrilin.  I'm happy to see this character again as I didn't believe he had died.  My rule of thumb when it comes to character death in any series, if you don't see the character die and the other characters just assume he's dead (There's no way he could have survive!" Then that character is going to show up alive later on.

 

I think by this point Thom has determined that Rand can channel.  Maybe I need to go back and re-read the conversation again, but I believe that Thom suspects Rand can channel, but hasn't grasped the gravity of the situation yet.  I understand Thom wanting to stay out of it, but somehow, someway, he's getting roped into despite himself.

 

The Game.  Reminds me of the Great Game played by Orlais in Dragon Age series.  Or it could be better described as Game of Thrones from A Fire of Ice and Fire.  Anyhoo, sorry, Rand, you were in the game the SECOND you stepped into that city.  And burning those letters did you NO favors.  I was crying out NO! when he threw those letters into the fire.  The game is played via subtlety and guile, not angry outbursts and declarations.  Maybe Thom can give him a kick in the ass I want to give him.  

 

You actually have a very good idea of what is to happen in the ENTIRE series, but you are not aware that you know.  When you hit those parts and have the epiphany, that moment of awe, you are going to flip back through and stare at things in TEOTW and be like...wow, how did I miss that!?!  Happy reading!

According to the companion Aginor drew on pure saidin to become younger  and stronger but it wasn't enough and he was defeated and killed by Rand. . Not sure its was a shock that they were free, but think it was they assumed they were just being freed.  So to discover they  have been free long enough to take over nations I think was the big shock.  Not to mention  knowing they're free and discovering one is really close by can be another  reason she was so paniced.  I know there are mass murderers out there is alot different to discovering my neighbor is a mass murderer.

Very nice comparison.  I think this describes it perfectly.

There is a lot of work for them to do.  The network has to select its production team, then the team has to generate artwork and concepts, scripts need to be written based off the books, casting, wardrobe, sets, props, not to mention finding producers to fund the filming.  It's a lot of work so while I am super excited, I also understand that there are other factors at work.  Also probably waiting for GOT to run down to draw its fan base who will be craving more fantasy.  And yes, I would expect more news at the next DragonCon or maybe a Comicon next year when the network that picked it up gives a green light for the cast and crew t begin talking a little about it.  Still, we are living in some exciting times, people!  

 

 

I'm not sure Peter Jackson would be available. He seems to make movies with very big budgets. I don't know what the budget could be per season for WoT. Maybe something like 50-100 million dollars? Just a guess, so I could be way off...

 

It would be interesting to know how they select actors for different roles. I would guess some of the villains would require great acting skills, so there might be some more or less known names there. The major good guys would have a lot of spotlight too, so maybe they want good actors there too, but they'd be young, so maybe the pay-checks would be less (per working hour at least). Less known names among the young ones, I would guess. If there are known names, then it seems to me they usually pick actors that have had similar roles before. A former villain plays villain again, and so on.

 

"Big Name Directors" rarely go from screen to TV, same with actors; even now, it's still seen as minor leagues, to some extent.

 

I think that their best chance for success would be having a verteran production crew team with new/young blood actors and directors.

 

Spielberg comes to mind, a few others but not many.

Mentioning the Seanchan, that does raise a good point as they are isolated and dealt with their blight early on after the breaking.  We see through the visions of Avi in Rhudiean when she witnesses the downfall of the Aiel that the Seanchan weapons are more modern (1800's style) rifles and I believe that they move from Raken to helicopter-like vehicles in one of the attacks.  The white streaks overhead might be sho-wings or similar vehicles that are precursors to what they had in the AOL.

Contrails being left behind by aircraft or missiles, maybe even satellites or space debris entering orbit though they seemed to be aircraft or missile contrails.  The wide and long burn marks on the land itself could indicate laser weaponry or nukes which would support aircraft or missiles, as if left over from the Age of Legends or an age before.  There were references to Mosk and Merk (Moscow and America) and Glem/Glen riding in the belly of a lance of fire (Glen Armstrong and the Apollo Missions iirc.  This ties in the Anla the wise counselor who is Ann Landers and other bastardizations of things from our current time which RJ loved to use to indicate the changes that occur with oral histories handed down through many generations.)

The Trollocs seemed to have had an early and complete victory over the forces of light to which the land itself seemed glad for a weapon to have been made.  There was the Trolloc monument in place of the monument to Artur Hawkwing celebrating his victory over the shadow's forces in the Trolloc Wars which indicated that either in the AOL or the Trolloc Wars the Trollocs won out, and then turned on each other for food.  We saw only Grolm in this world and the Seanchan forces used these animals like the Grolm and Torm and Lopar from these mirror worlds to defeat their smaller Blight and shadow forces right after the breaking.  Lanfear might have been bringing these in from yet another world as they seemed to appear as she willed to force Rand into running for the pillar stone and to force him into taking them back to the main world to which all others were the reflection.  She could have used gateways though at a distance, or have brought them in and staged them, maybe binding them with air and then releasing the weave to set the different bands of Grolm on the hunt.  Lanfear seemed to have greatly underestimated Rand's bow skill.  

my last questions repeated::

since Mesaana's mind that of a child, does she remember/know anything from before/during the telaranrhiod fight?

 

how is it that Mat and his companions survived Hinderstamp?

 

 

another question::

the dreamspike at Perrin's camp; was it destroyed or did it return to waking world?  if return, where?

Mesaana's mind has been traumatized to the point of breaking, like that of the Ogier that survived Machin Shin in the Ways.  The body lives, but no one is home any longer.  You can't even really compare it to a child as they have the capacity to learn, she doesn't.  She was drooling and cooing, and soiling herself last we saw.  Maybe not that last part, but it was a comparison from the Aiel Wiseone.  

Mat and his companions managed to escape Hinderstap.  They went back in the morning after the servants they took captive vanished and learned that the town was caught in some sort of pattern loop.

Rand's exact instructions seem uncertain.  that scene seemed to be off screen.

Ghealdan and Masema seem to be the main reasons for the trip.

 

If I remember correctly, Rand conquered Illian and sought Sammael's followers within that time.  both seemed to be needed to be done. maybe also fight the Seanchan.

You also have to remember that he seems to want to use Perrin as soon as he arrives back from the Two Rivers.  This was also not just to make use of him for his plans, but to keep Perrin and Matt away from him.  One he sends to deal with the trouble Masema is causing in otherwise safe and peaceful Ghealdan, the other is to send Matt to fetch back the girls.  Remember, Rand not only shifts and bends the Pattern around him, but is manipulated by it as well.  In TDR, he sits and waits for something to happen, then when the Trollocs come he begins using the prophesy of the Dragon as a checklist starting with the Stone of Tear, which is why Moiraine was angry for him delving into the Prophesy further once in Tear.  Without sending Matt and Perrin away, Wow, almost gave a lot away here!  And when he sends Perrin to deal with Masema...again, wow, almost gave a bunch of spoilers away!  Things will become clearer the further in you read.  

One day you will look back and realize that RJ had almost everything not only well planned out, but highly interwoven with tons of foreshadowing of things to come even as far back as book one, subtle comments and small happenings that you just accept and take in until a few books later your memory gives a tickle and you are like...wait, what? Followed by delving back into past books trying to find that mention or hint and then you smile and chuckle to yourself and keep on reading. 

gotten an email of the original state of your post.

 

What are those thunderclouds that appear at the beginning of a gathering storm? Who/what controls them, and what do they do? Yes, I need to get spoiled on that one.

those questions seem ok in this thread.  the staff of this forum seem to consider Gathering Storm before Memory of Light.

 

what are they?  not entirely sure, but they seem to relate to the odd weather throughout this series.

who/what controls them?  I would say the Dark One.

what do they do?  for sure darken the sky; and maybe also the mood of various characters.

Pretty much this.  It darkens the mood, aids the DO in messing with the weather and preventing crops from growing.  Overall it is a physical representation of everything coming to a head, blackest of black clouds tangling with white/silver.  Close one moment, distant the next, and back again.  The tottering scales with Light on one side, and the Shadow on the other.