riding in a cart on their way to caemlyn and barely able to stay awake,rand

and mat had to listen to almen bunt's endless monologue about caemlyn,

morgase,elaida,luc,tigraine etc...reading eye of the world chapter 34 i said

to myself,wonderful,rand and mat are out of their depth,hungry,tired,hunted

by darkfriends and this almen bunt won't shut up.

when i learned that shaiel was actually tigraine,i returned to the eye of the 

world chapter 34,reread it very carefully and was impressed by robert jordan's

ability to tell us about rand's family tree during a seemingly insignificant cart ride to caemlyn.

RJ was gifted beyond words, and such a good writer that things tied themselves in he probably didn't give a second thought to.  Each time I go back through the series (more than 20 times now,) I glean little nuggets and have realizations of things I hadn't connected before.

just an observation,rand did spend more time with mat than anyone during their eye of

the world journey,yet,he was completely unaffected by the shadar logoth taint.

It is likely that since he was being corrupted by the taint on the OP, this equal yet different evil might have staved off obvious signs of corruption.  We see later that the two wounds on his side, the TP taint from Ishy's staff wound and Fain's dagger wound over the spot worked against each other.  We also see this cancel out and leave a giant hole where Shadar Logoth was when the taint is cleansed from the source.  At least my theory, when I was wondering about it.

 

in your opinion,did padan fain corrupt elaida to some degree?

Yes.  He made her more paranoid, and it grew until she was not just a bad decision to put a Red Ajah member on the Seat, but to be a terrible Aes Sedai and human being in the end.  We saw it in CoS with Toram Riatin so quickly falling under Fain's control.  His meetings with Elaida did this to her.  What surprises me is how Niall was barely touched by him, but I think that's more of an analysis of the CoL and Niall's own persona.

 

The taint of Shadar Logoth is strong, and even the smallest of cuts could corrupt and kill quickly.  It nearly killed Matt, turned him massively paranoid, Fain was corrupted by it, and those who spent their time with Fain were destroyed as well. (The CoL who followed him and the Darkfriends as well)

 

Niall wasn't "barely touched," in my opinion.  Just look at what he orders the White Cloaks and Carridin to do, and put Fain in control not only of the killing the White Cloaks (Questioners) were doing on Almoth Plain, but put Fain in a position of power for the Two Rivers Campaign.  Bornhald cannot fathom why Ordeith was given such sway and notes with disgust the corruption of the Children that were in Fain's camp.  If he wasn't bothered so much with revenge for his father, he might have put a stop to it rather than seeing Fain as a somewhat necessary evil.  

As to Niall, Niall wanted to expand the position of the Children, but was tempered to gains and victories through negotiations in more recent times following the White Cloak War long ago.  Then his temperance and caution and wisdom are eroded by Fain and the dark side emerges allowing him to miss the machinations among his own people and die for it while trying to gain more lands and influence.

 

in your opinion,did padan fain corrupt elaida to some degree?

Yes.  He made her more paranoid, and it grew until she was not just a bad decision to put a Red Ajah member on the Seat, but to be a terrible Aes Sedai and human being in the end.  We saw it in CoS with Toram Riatin so quickly falling under Fain's control.  His meetings with Elaida did this to her.  What surprises me is how Niall was barely touched by him, but I think that's more of an analysis of the CoL and Niall's own persona.

 

The taint of Shadar Logoth is strong, and even the smallest of cuts could corrupt and kill quickly.  It nearly killed Matt, turned him massively paranoid, Fain was corrupted by it, and those who spent their time with Fain were destroyed as well. (The CoL who followed him and the Darkfriends as well)

 

Not only more paranoid, but she became very grandiose in her desires.  The new palace/tower she was building, her inability to tolerate small things like the Sitters and how easily she gave in to Alviarin.    

Yes, I seem to remember that piece now which was her inspiration for making the necklace and bracelet as separate pieces.  Well, it seems like Elaida is well and truly stuck.  Great News, lol!

I am sure we can have a better discussion if we remove Elaida from the equation and replace her with a Wise One captured by the Seanchan that can figure this escape out, or a Wind Finder.  Elaida just doesn't get it on so many levels, lol.

I'm also pretty sure that Egwene is prevented from releasing the source, but it's been a long time since I've read the start of the series so may be misremembering.

 

Of course, the sul'dam also needs to be paying attention (eg punching the sul'dam after being captured)

Most of the issues involve the sul'dam punishing the damane after an action or for failure to act, or for striking them, and usually for making them feel varying levels of pain or pleasure.  If they had full control Melatine wouldn't have been so embarrassed in front of Tuon trying to make Elaida shut up and do as she was told.

She could not because it would require the sul dam to allow her to make it. The only chance for escape was the very first time she made it. But, more importantly it would have killed her instantly from being too far from her suldam since they develop symptoms of illness when they get more than a few feet from the bracelet. The difference with the girls is that they are not collared by someone whom does not want them to be free. There wete moments when certain suldam told their damane not to go near the bracelet under any circumstances then observed them. They got ill just by thinking about it. There was one suldam that said this was frowned upon because one damane actually died from touching it. She favoured other ways of training, especially the very strong willed damane.

But the very instant the leash is severed the a'dam is destroyed thus the link is broken.  Elayne developed Moggy's special necklace and bracelet setup that took the basis of the a'dam and improved it so that it didn't need the leash, sort of like going from ethernet to wifi.  Cut the ethernet cord and the connection is broken.  I just remembered that we see this effect with the doorframe ter'angreal when it melts after Moiraine and Lanfear go through it, Lan's bond is broken.  And this is just a hypothetical.  Elaida likely will be teaching others among the Damane to make the traveling weave, and I am sure she will go through a gateway at some point, usually walking behind the sul'dam to pass through a gateway.  The return through one would be ideal, otherwise she would be trapped with other seanchan at one of their areas/bases.  It would have to be timed right and she couldn't be thinking about the escape all the time otherwise the sul'dam would sense it and make her blubber and carry on with how much she loves being a captive, I'm just focused on the mechanics of the issue, should she find the opportunity, would it work?

I do not think Elaida could do that. If Rand could not do anything, then Elaida could not. It is simply the fact that the a dam also allows some control of the damane besides channelling saidar. She simply would be unable to act even if she thought of it.

She couldn't release the power with one of them on each side of a gateway?  Why not?  She isn't trying to channel or embrace the source but rid herself of it in that moment.  And Rand's situation was different a little.  He was more controlled than a Damane with an a'dam.  Semi made him move as well as channel, forced him to choke Min.  An a'dam doesn't physically control a person beyond their channeling, it makes someone feel like they are being harmed, even hitting their Suldame they feel it ten times but no physical marks.  We even saw from Egwene's POV that she could channel a trickle when the Suldame left her bracelet on the peg, so it is flawed in that way too, though it was difficult.  The best you can say of an a'dam's physical control is making someone sick up, or restricts them from moving the bracelet more than a step and keeps them tethered.  A Damane can open and release herself from the a'dam if she knows the trick on opening it.  The girls practiced this at Falme iirc before the rescue though I have seen mention later on in the series that it isn't possible, but this is simply a belief, like the Aes Sedai thought that if the shadow blew the HOV the heroes would have to fight for the shadow.  This wasn't true.  The heroes also would need LTT's sign in order to fight.

Here's something fun that should provide some discussion.  So, I had this idea in my head since last night while listening to the audiobooks.  Tuon and the court are impressed once Elaida stops begging and crying and creates a Gateway for them.  It would be a simple matter for her to escape her Seanchan captors while making a gateway.  Either the suldame or Elaida steps through first and she simply releases the power, thus severing the leash and destroying the a'dam Ter'angreal.  This should work as long as she doesn't think about using the gateway as a weapon to kill her suldame, just severing the leash.  Damane are quick to release the power so as not to displease their captors, it was always embracing the power or using it against their wishes that caused pain or was blocked by the a'dam.

The only downside I can think of would be if in the severing of the Suldame's leash allowing her to move any number of steps, as if the bracelet was hung on a peg in a room.  If that happened, she would be stuck unless she opened a gateway into the White Tower and threw herself on the mercies of the sisters, who she doesn't know understand how to open an a'dam's collar but would be a logical place to travel to(she doesn't know she has been replaced yet).  Skimming wouldn't work as releasing the power would make any platform vanish, though sisters are supposed to be calm and collected and should be able to puzzle out opening another gateway to fall through or reestablishing the platform.

So, what do you all think? 

RJ threw the best of Tolkein and other fantasy writers, our own lore, legends, and current history into the pot and gave it a stir.  We have the Aiel who resemble the Zulu tribes with their bucklers and short spears, ability to run, but they are white and have mullets of Scottish-coloring, and an Amazonian warrior society for their women.  We have "the power" that there were moments in the series that seemed to give nods to Lucas' "Force" we have John Henry as one of the heroes of the horn which like much of the series is borrowed from one mythology or another be it Norse, Hindu, Shinto, religions, his own brand of physics...So yes we have Two Rivers loosely modeled after the Hobbits of Tolkein in that their out of the way simple and appealing lifestyle gets severely rocked by events, whose people are as stubborn as a dwarf, as skilled with their longbows as an elf, and from a "Mountain Home."

RJ left a lot of innocuous things in his writings that we easily accept without thought as part of the story like Mat's spear, which are actually hints and nods to big reveals...anyone ever bother to contemplate what the ruins beside Bran's Inn are from, beyond a passing thought?     

Another thing is that it doesn't seem there were any channelers summoned by the horn. For the hundred-ish heroes only a few of them were named and none were described as able to channel. My bet is that it may just be the soul of someone who can channel already is bound to the wheel. I haven't re-read AMOL (yet) but from what I remember the horn, once blown by Olver was almost the "I win" button.

There was a vague reference to one being a channeler, can't remember the name, though.  Buad or Amerasu, or Blaes were all described as beautiful and queen-like and powerful women.  Amerasu wields a sword of the sun we know(could be like rand's power-wrought sword of flame), while Calian the Chooser represents the end of an age and destruction.  Unless their beauty was such that they could walk across the battlefield and drive men and beasts to stop fighting, they likely could use the power as most of them didn't have a weapon tied to their hero forms.  Pretty women riding horses you can find at a rodeo so I'm thinking it was more than beauty or their commanding nature and ability to gather people to them that makes them USEFUL heroes to the horn/pattern summoned at one point during battle at the sounding of the horn.  Maybe if we reread the battle at Falme we will have a hint?  I don't think we saw much of the heroes actually fighting apart from Noel and Birgitte, we just see them riding and talking to Mat catching up and only a handful of the hundred are even mentioned so its a good bet there are some channelers in there just vague references and inferences.

 

"I don’t know what would be enough, Perrin." She shivered slightly. "Is there anything an Aes Sedai would not do, or put up with, if the White Tower told her to? I have studied my history, and I was taught to read between the lines. Mashera Donavelle bore seven children for a man she loathed, whatever the stories say, and Isebaille Tobanyi delivered the brothers she loved to their enemies and the throne of Arad Doman with them, and Jestian Redhill... " She shivered again, not so slightly.

   "It’s all right," he murmured, wrapping her in his arms. He had studied several books of history himself, but he had never seen those names. The daughter of a lord received a different education from a blacksmith’s apprentice.

 

Stopping at the edge of the green, Egwene gazed back at the wide stone bridge that arched over the rapidly widening stream running from a spring that gushed out of a stone outcrop strongly enough to knock a man down. A massive marble shaft carved all over with names stood in the middle of the green, and two tall flagpoles on stone bases. "A battle monument," she murmured. "Who could imagine such a thing in Emond's Field? Though Moiraine said that once a great battle was fought on this spot, in the Trolloc Wars, when Manetheren died."

   "It was in the history I studied," Elayne said quietly, glancing at the bare flagpoles

.

 

 

I'm not a history buff, I can barely remember a few things from HS. When Perrin states that he studied SEVERAL books of history what does he mean by it? They are basically peasants (but they can read and write) in a very little village far from the world.

 

What kind of education did a peasant have in the 16-17th century? Or is this an error? (For example blacksmiths are not bodybuilders, no, they are not.)

 

Books of tales, lore, heroes (Travels of Jaim Farstrider) and the battles fought pretty much, that and the map on the wall of Bran's Inn.  The most basic of educations.  Her education was different in that she was tutored both by scholars as well as by her father's retired armsman who thought it amusing that she wanted to learn how to use knives.  Towards the end of the series we see Rand's schools as a gathering of scholars and inventors and a sharing of knowledge like we are used to, a more traditional setting like an early University. 

I always took it as a cross between the Aiel "sister" bonding and the AS warder bonding.

I did as well, especially since right around this time Avi and Elayne and the wise ones bond as sisters.

_{Hello all,}

 

_{Couple interesting topics came to mind while reading some of the books.}

 

_{1) What Ajah's do you think the Ashaman will have for the future? Just copy the Aes Sedai's Colour codes?}

 

_{2) What new purpose do you think the Red Ajah will do? I personally believe that they will be a kind of Aes Sedai Police force for capturing rogue channelers for both Male and Female. I can see a type of Warder bonding for Male Ashaman "red" Ajah and Red Aes Sedai. A sort of tag team to capture Rogue Channelers.}

 

_{Agree to Disagree? Any thoughts?}

I wouldn't call them Ajahs, they are more like Factions.  We saw that with Taim and Logain's camps and even Androl has supporters.  Also the Two Rivers lads banded together.  We see that "Factions" are popular in one version of the world that Rand and the DO keep making and remaking where in the 4th Age Basel Gil betrays Rand for hi clothing.

Nope, still in limbo until they do a deal with a network/distr

Thanks

the weave will dissipate with time,depending on the weaver's strength.

after the battle between rand and asmodean at rhuidean,lanfear tied an

incomplete shield around asmodean,it allowed a trickle of saidin through,

but it wasn't permanent,she told rand that the shield will dissipate after a while.

Yes and no.  That shield was designed to dissipate so that as he taught Rand, over time he could gain trust and channel stronger weaves.  The plan was for him to teach Rand all that he knew over the next few years, not to kill him.  That was Graendal on a whim we are told.  

But there are exceptions.  True, most weaves will dissipate, some much quicker than others as in gateways seem to close slowly even when weaves are used to hold them open, but we see one weave in particular that has lasted 3000 years, that being the wards on Callandor and those that hold the sword in the air turning it.  Objects imbued with the power seem to last, like weapons and Ter'angreal, Angreal, and so forth.  I also suspect the weaves Rand used in Rhuidean to make the fountains flow will run forever.  The only way that a weave like those would fail is like during the cleansing, if all of Saidin or Saidar were massively channeled exceeding the flow that replenishes it.  We see that you can store some of the power outside of the source like in wells and with the Eye.  

I think the only situation where the One Power dissapears instantly on death is when the person is actively weaving it at the time, since they always talk about the hundreds of wards that are constantly around the White Tower to protect it from various things. Couldnt see them having to keep a monitor on those wards so that sisters can recast them as soon as teh sister that cast them 300 years ago dies of old age.

Like if someone is holding a shield or actively maintaining a weave.

I do recall how fast the shadowspawn caught up with Moiraine and Lan in Andor after leaving Baerlon, so possibly through some different waygates.  Iirc, Lan mentions that there were a thousand or more trollocs in the hunt for them and remarks on how they could have come to be and ponders how they could travel so far without a hue and cry raised from the borderlands on south.

Then we have Trollocs massing outside of Caemlyn when Lan and Moiraine arrive to rejoin Rand and Mat.  There was one of their POV's about how the trollocs were massing their numbers in the countryside and would enter the city once they had enough to fight their way in.  Interesting though is the waygate inside Caemlyn.  But we have speculation that the trollocs might not know all the ways yet.

I still think a combination of means were used.  Pillar stones, waygates, and for the darkfriends, gateways made by Sammael.

So why was Perrin's Group allowed to carry weapons after they had attacked the prophet's men? I don't even think the madness accounts for that.

I had forgotten about that!  I remember now that the guy he let go was there when Perrin visited and Perrin argued or said something about people collecting ears or something and the Prophet backed down but still maintained that he wouldn't make use of gateways, and then agreed to after Faile was kidnapped.  Probably because it would keep him away from Rand longer(Forsaken Influence?).

Do we have a compilation of Fain's unique powers?  I am sure that each entity of Fain came with their own abilities, like Fain's ability to track Rand, Mat, Perrin, Ordith, Mashadar, ect.

I did want to mention that the DO had little to do with wanting male channelers trained.  That was the forsaken, masking their need of dreadlords for the last battle sneaking darkfriends in after they tested with the spark or the ability to learn.  In the end, they were turning channelers to their side for two reasons:  !. To increase their numbers.  2.  To weaken the armies of light.  My question was what the whole deal was quarrying black stone from Shayol Ghul that appeared at the Black Tower towards the End.  Taim and his Dredlords wanted it for something, or maybe the powers it held, or the DO's essence?

You make some good points, especially Taim's concern when he witnesses Rand's slip.  But, I refer you to Ingtar, who was Rand's friend and while mostly driven and a Borderland personality he admitted Rand was a good choice to be named his second in command, and was Rand's friend.  Ingtar did turn to the light and sacrifice himself at Falme so Rand and company could get away.  Even a Darkfriend and channeler would know the significance if the DR went mad before the last battle.  So it could be either or.  He was full of himself and a womanizer but at some point he does go over.  I just wonder if he was turned or not.  Demandred had access to the Black Ajah and Fades, so...who knows?  Or maybe not, because he didn't have the look in his eye.  It certainly makes for an interesting debate.

Rand learned to manipulate reality during his battle with the Dark one.  That's my theory, and I think it's the best one.  He can do to reality what Perrin could do in the World of Dreams.  That in itself is greater than anything that can be done with channeling.

I believe this is the case, his wresting the threads of the pattern/reality from the Dark One during the Last Battle gave him the ability to manipulate reality itself, probably in a small way.  Or maybe it is a thank you from the Creator for all of his suffering and service.

rand played yo-yo with hurin,err...hurin was the yo-yo.

Hurin was chosen when the Borderland Army reached Far Madding to go to Rand as a messenger.  Rand wasn't very nice to him, he was dark Rand at the time.  And yes, Hurin in AMoL reflected during a brief reprieve in the battle that Rand had come and apologized to him and Hurin felt that the world was right again and had hope.