^ it's rather hard to make an original when basically everything has been done before.

i have to agree.  it does seem like JKR did "copy" alot of ideas from other authors or series.  like the gandolf - dumbledore comparison ....  thoguth i doubt Tolken would come out and say Gandolf is gay *glares at JKR* just to stir the pot *double glare*  cause Tolken wasn't a medai hound .........

anyways, i certaintly agree that there are similarities, though i would be interested in knowing what simlarities you have found. 

"Ashokan Farewell" by Ungar & Mason

this is a must listen too.  it's sad adn happy at the same time.  when i die, i want this song played at my funeral *nods*

it's a scottish lament song, a violin and guitar duet.  it makes yer heart weep.

they should use this as "Fawkes Lament" on HP

*sniffles*

a jedi warder... now thats inretsting!!  it has potential *evil grin*

not to mention that AS are bound by the 3 oaths.

Jedi's are not dark friends

and an AS cannot use the power on them until the Jedi attacks

by then the "force" has already been deployed and the AS is at their mercy  ;D

jedi most certaintly. 

aes sedia would be sent into a daze by the pretty colors of a light saber  ;D

"One More Try" - George Micheael.

serisouly, everytime i hear this song i think of that Sinéad O'Connor song.  the one with the music video where shes crying  Nothign compares to you... i think thats it...

*mumbles abotu iPod*

We know that you are arguing your interpretation. We are pointing out that said interpretation is supported by nothing. But a thought has arisen in my mind. Burning out is done to oneself by drawing too much of the power (by your interpretation), while stilling is done to one by a third party (also by your interpretation), correct? Yet the theory put forward, that it was the destruction of the ter'angreal (ter'angreal are dangerous when mishandled at the best of times, so we are warned, and this was far from the best of times) is neither. If anything it is surely closer to stilling than burning out, if we consider the doorway to be a third party - it is not something they did to themselves as a result of drawing too much power, at any rate, so therefore they were not burnt out but stilled, correct? So where is the problem? They were stilled and Cyndane was Healed from that, and you can hardly argue that that is impossible given that we have seen it done.

 

i addressed that i believed that it could be caused by a ter'angrael in a previous comment.

and no evidence of how the sisters acted points to them being anything but stilled.  like i said, as far as i have read, all the evidence point to that only you can burn yourself out and only by drawlign in too much of the power (or even  it couldd be caused by direct contact with a ter'angael whose disigned with the power to burn out the user)

also if you read in the book why a ter'angrael burns you out, it's "Because you draw too much of the one power than you can handle"  and also, seeing as it's an object that the person is using, such object throeritically can't be called a "third person"

 

it would be like a person stickign there hand on a stove and getting burned, versus another person comming in and placing the first persons hand on the stove to get burned.  if the first person is using coooking with a pan and accidently touches the burner, it's still their own fault for getting burned, it's still self inflicted.

 

stove=power

cooking pan= ter'angrael

 

So it makes perfect sense for Shai'tan to reduce the effectiveness of one of His tools to no gain to Himself after already punishing her with the mindtrap? Doesn't sound like it. Sounds more like doing that would be Him shooting Himself in the foot (do you think that shooting yourself in the foot is a good idea? Try it.) and even if all that results is a negligible flesh wound, that is still hardly a compelling reason to do it. But what if that flesh wound gets infected and you lose the foot because of it? A bit more of a blow, I would say. The law of unintended consequences. Unfortunately for the Light, you are not in charge of the Shadow, as you would no doubt make their job much easier. She has already been hit where it hurts the most - she is leashed. Anything beyond that is needless. Furthermore, it is out of character.  Nothing about that supports tht He is likely to impair her strength, quite the reverse.

 

Furthermore, we also don't know that Shai'tan can easily do anything like Healing her. we don't know if He knows any form of Healing. We don't know what the effec of attempting to use the True Power to Heal severing would be - it might be impossible. We don't know what loss or gain of strength might possibly result. In short we are dealing with far more unknowns than it is reasonable to do so given that we have a perfect know in using saidar to Heal her - that is the only thing we know that could cause her loss of strength. Knowledge beats assumptions. So the overwhelmingly most likely option is thus established as they were severed and Cyndane was Healed by a woman. A theory backed up by evidence, reason and Mr Ares. What more could you want? What holes are there? How can you fail to be won round?

 

while you make a good point in it would be hurting himself doing so (after reading the quote from RJ) but there is no evidence other than her diminished strength to suggest she was healed.  and i'm of the opinion that if RJ would have had a BA member heal her we would have also had a point in the book where such memeber boasts about it in her mind, about how useful she was to the DO and so on. 

 

to me, it makes much more sense to just say the DO did it.  and what makes healing a person more harder than bringing them back to life?  if anything it's brining a person back to life that is much harder than healing someone.

 

and i'm not even suggesting now (because you guys are right, the DO is the source of the True Power) that the DO channeled to do it.  we'v been lead to think that the reason why the DO is trapped in the first place is because he can reach out and touh the pattern and re-make the world in his own image.  that he can touch the pattern itself. 

 

to me, seeing as he has brought back members of the forsaken, suggests that he has direct influence and contact with their threads after they die. (unless Balefire is used because then the thread is burnt out of the pattern and no longer exists; reason why Be'lal and Rahvin can't be reborn)  we see that he does, infact have this ability because Osan'gar and Aran'gar are re-born into the pattern.  so instead of bringing Lanfear back to life and having her healed, why is it so wrong to assume that instead, the DO patched her thread with his magical duct tape (because in reality duct tape is wonderful and holds the universe together ;) lol) and as a result lowered her strength.

 

though i still like the idea of it being extra punishment for lanfear, though after reading the thing from RJ you guys are right it isn't the DO's m.o. but i still refuse to believe the involvement of a BA member is needed.

 

also here is another point i'd like to suggest.  maybe lanfears decreased strength is a result of her bargin with the fins.  maybe for escape, the only price she could pay was to give them some of her life; and the finns being who they are took her life as well because it allowed her escape.  we know the type of creatures they are, and from my memory of matt's encounter with them, such a suggestion is not at all above them.  theres nothing to suggest that Lanfear had every had dealings with the Finn's before.

Except your not arguing, you are stating as fact. The mode of your comments don't allow any room for interpretation--you state what you think to be the case as the case. Surely you can't be shocked that your unilateral comments about what is the case, which are based only on your own opinion, are met with disdain, or even outright anger?

 

if you've noticed, the only time i've gotten remotely angery is by your outright disrespect towards me and calling me by that pet name "champ" on the previous page.  other than that i've shown no hostility towards arguing over what i think is right as far as in this series.  liek i said before, boards like this are made for discussing such points as this.  and i will further add that no one will always agree on the same points, which is why said discussions are held in the first place.  heck, theres still people out there who believe DD is alive; even after DH was released and even after JKR came out and said "No he's dead i apologize for making the website ddisnotdead.com useless" before the release of DH.  even so, when new members came onto the site and argued what we believed as fact, we appeased them and debated with them until we were running in circles, then when a clear consensus couldn't be reached we, agreed to disagree.  but we never called the members rude or such names for thinking the way they did and bringing up a discussion we've already discussed time and time again because we were happy to have new people on the board so late in the series that could also contribute to different parts of the site other than discussing the book.

 

Fine. State it as what you have read--as your opinion. People will disagree with your--for instance we know as fact that other things can cause being burned out than drawing on too much of the power

 

and here i'm going to ask you again to quote in the book where it says or suggests one can be burnt out by any other means than drawlign in too much of the power.  by all accounts we are told that is exactly what leads to the result of being burnt out. quote one example from teh books that says "so and so was burnt out" that wasn't a case of self-infliction. the three AS and Cyndane arent examples of this.  theres no clear cut point that Cyndane was either stilled or burnt out as we're not told that she was, and we are told numerous times by the three AS, the wise ones, other AS and Rand that they were Stilled.

 

where as being stilled is what another person does to you (Rand did it to them)

 

And your thoughts about what we have already stated about that reality are...?

 

that being burnt out is one caused by self-infliction and being stilled is the result of a third parties doing.  i can't say it any more clear cut than that.

 

It is, but many things can be woven with spirit, and as ive stated many times the web Rand used does not match the weave of stilling as described by Nynaeve. Irgain, Sashelle and Ronaille were not stilled.

 

Nynaeve has never tried to heal a person who has been stilled with Saidin, only with Siadar.  by all accounts of what were told, the two are polar opposites.  where as Saidin in a raging sea trying to ripe control out of your hands and you have to force it to surrender to you, Saidar is a peaceful river whom you have to surrender to.  even the weaves used in Saidin are a rougher version than those used for the same thing with Saidar.  take Flinns seperating the wounds on Rand's side for instance.  an AS inspects them and says something to the effect of them being more jagged or rough or such.

 

the same could be suggested for a male stilling a female.  instead of a clean slice like is used for stilling someone with siadar, maybe a crushing blow is used for stilling with Saidin.  in all accounts, to me, it fits with how Saidin is described.  LTT descirbed in detail to Rand how he could and would still each one of those AS.  there for Rand had the knowledge to do so.  seeing as he used a fist of spirit (spirit being the element needed to sever a channelers ability), and the fit of rage and need to get out, it makes sense that Rand did in fact still them.

 

If spirit is used' date=' then its safe to assume that while its not a clean slice, what Rand did was a primative and more blunt form of Stilling. [/quote']

 

Why?

 

like i stated above "by all accounts of what were told, the two are polar opposites.  where as Saidin in a raging sea trying to ripe control out of your hands and you have to force it to surrender to you, Saidar is a peaceful river whom you have to surrender to.  even the weaves used in Saidin are a rougher version than those used for the same thing with Saidar."  there for its safe to assume that being stilled by Saidin would be rougher and more harsh and jagged than by Saidar.

 

Except we witness shielding which is exactly similar in circumstance. Thus, as the weaves are directly stated as being extensions of each other its unlikely. Furthermore its doubtful women form weaves for men to 'crush' when they need to be stilled.

 

the highlited portion in red of your statement is somewhat confusing to me.  so can you please clarify it in your next response.  i think your addressing the sheild that the AS formed to hold Rand.  if i'm wrong then i'm sorry.  if this is the case, the reason by Rand was crushing them is because he wasn't attampting to still them directly, he was trying to get out.  as i've said in a pervious post, it's and indirect result of him battering through their shield.  also, you have to take into account Rand's mindset at the time; he was frantic and mad with the need to get out before they realized the sheild was weakened and replace the "knots" he had already untangled.  so he used what ever he had in his mind to get out, he had the knowledge of stilling people in his head from LTT, but at this point in time because he's so frantic he's not thinking clearly.  panic had overtaken him, and as we know from many examples IRL more often than not we don't follow the most clear way of doing something when we are paniced.  if your panicing and trapped in a burnign buuilding, instead of thinking calmly and rationally and fnding a way down, you see and open window and jump out because it's an immediate escape and your panicing.

 

So, two channelers fall through a ter'angreal that destroys itself--and arn't burnt out? From there we have the fact that in that process Moiraines bond is snapped, a result that only occurs from being severed from the source. Then we have the fact that both women are imprisoned by the Finns for some considerable time--despite the fact that the power works against them easily. Then we have Cyndane appearing with a decreased strenth, again something that we've not see without severing.

 

they weren't using that ter'angrael to drawl in more power and by all acounts in the book, the only instances we've heard of someone being burnt out by a ter'angrael is when their using it to draw in more of the power.  also, while we know that channeling works well against the "foxes" (Aelfinn) the only person we've known to go into the "Snakes" (Eelfinn) is Matt, and he wasn't able to channel at all.  so there for we have no idea what type of means the Snakes have to defend themselves of the power or that you can even channel in their domain.

 

You are quite correct, we have no evidence of them being severed at all.

 

As for the Dark One healing them--that we do have no evidence for, and furthermore him healing her to a weaker degree is silly--he has he soulbound, and beyond that he only weakens himself by weakening her, and he's shown his position on that quite clearly.

 

i agree that it would weaken him even more and is not his MO to do so after reading the post by Mr. Ares.  but as i also argued, i still don't see the need to bring in a BA member to heal her when the "healing" can be done by the DO; if she even had to be healed in the first place and it wasn't a result of a bargin with the snakes

 

i dont apprecaite the furhter disrespect you have shown me by not only continuing to call me champ after i've asked you twice not to; but then to do so jokingly.  while my calling you "lurkers" was a simple typo and i do apologize for that, your's was a blantant form of disrespect.  seeing as you are a memebr of staff, it not only reflects poorly you, but also on the rest of your staff as well.  and if that is the respect that you show to people IRL then i feel even more sorry for you as well.  as a result of your actions on this issue i have sent in a complaint about you to the admins.  i'm also a staff memeber on a few other sites and none of us would accept the behavior you are showing towards me on this issue; and the other boards i am a member of would also not tolirate such disrespect towards its members.

that being said.  i am only arguing what my interpretation of the book is.  fromwhat i've read, i believe that being burnt out is not only slef inflicted, but a result of drawing in too much of the One Power than you can handle.  that when you are "burnt out" you can no longer sense the source, and your ability to channel is seared out of you leaving nothing left to be healed because your connection to the source is no longer there.

where as being stilled is what another person does to you (Rand did it to them)

  An instant of regret that it was not Galina or Erain he had stilled--he was not sure he had intended to do that; Lews Therin had gone on at length about how he intended to sever every on of them that had imprisioned him;

...he seized at those three soft points' date=' crushing them ruthlessly in fists on Spirit.[/quote']

 

and i believe Spirit is the weave they use to Still someone.  i've looked through Suian getting stilled and she never mentioned it, though it's probably mentioned what weave and element is used to still someone. 

 

If spirit is used, then its safe to assume that while its not a clean slice, what Rand did was a primative and more blunt form of Stilling.  the fact that it is a man stilling women could also come into play as well, seeing as the only exapmles of stilling we have to go by is women stilling women and women stilling men.  it maybe that because this stilling is done with Siadin, it is a more uncontrolled and jagged cut; seeing as Saidin is a more uncontrolled and volient side of the Power.

 

 

as for Lanfear being stilled or burnt out, we have no evidence of that happening either.  all we do know is that her and Moiraine went throught eh ter'angrael and she was re-born again with less power.  whether it was that stilled and healed by a BA memeber or one of the forsaken; or she was stilled and healed by the DO or the DO reduced her power as punishment are all possible choices because ther is no clear cut proof to point to one more than the other.

 

i still say that to me it makes perfect sense why the DO would take away some of her power.  seeing that she is still strong enough to do the damage he needs, taking away her power is hurting her where it hurts the most and teaching her the biggest lesson that way.  you disagree, fine; i also disagree with throwing in a memember of the BA to heal her when the DO can easily do it himself.  while he's not all powerful, the FACT that he can bring someone back to the dead (which is impossible for any Aes Sedia to do) is suggestive that healing a person from being stilled or even burnt out is more than possible for him.  and in essence of the plot, would make more sense and be less complicated.

 

as for Traveling.  from what i have read i had the impression and still do, that you have to know the destination well enough in order to open a gateway there.  though you are right about Avendha, she did travel to the Seanchan without having even been there; but she also didn't knwo she was opening a gateway as well if you recall and is lucky she didn't end up opening a gateway over the ocean.  i guess inorder to Travel you don't need to know the destination, but it is WISE to know your destination so you don't kill someone by opening a gateway ontop of them, or open on over a 20 foot drop or over the ocean.  and by these conditions i will further suggest that eventually a rule to being taught the weave to travel will be to know your destination.  but this is just speculation about the rule of course.

Strictly speaking, his name is Luckers, so calling him Lurkers is hardly a huge sign of respect.

 

on the interenet its a sign of curtousy for one to call the other by his/her choosen name.  this is so even back in the late 90's when chatrooms where the major means of talking to people.  to me, calling me anything other than that where you aren't exactly my friend and where you are calling me rude in the same paragraph is not only rude as well but disrespectful to boot. its the same whay that addressing people you meet as Mr. or Mrs. or by their name IRL instead of saying "Hey bud" to every person you meet, unless ofcourse your parents didn't teach you manners growing up (which in todays society is very possible)

 

So you have no evidence to say that burning out can't be healed, and yet despite the point being addressed you carry on saying that it can be? This passes for politeness where you are from? Not addressing the points that are raised against your arguments and carrying on making the same points as if no one has dealt with them? Look at the descriptions. Stilling - sharp weave, cutting. Burning out - too much power, burning ability. What Rand did - crushing ability in fists of spirit, doesn't match previous descriptions of stilling, and the damage caused doesn't sound like the sharp cuts normally associated with stilling. Now, personally I don't see any evidence saying that burn out can't be Healed, and enough to support that it can be. If you have evidence, share it.

 

just as you are continuing to argue it can be healed, i'm contining to argue that it cant.  this is passes for a debate where i come from, where people argue different sides of the same point.  which, as i stress again, is what boards like this are for.  seeing as there is no instances in the books that state being burnt out cannot be healed, why should i think otherwise unless RJ comes out and directly says it can or gives enough hints to the reader that it can.  all we have that is any sort of hint that being burnt out can be healed is Egwene stating that it will be hard having novices and accepted to take it slow knowing burnt out can be healed.  yet i'c like to argue that she was thinking strickly of Logain, Suan, and Lean who were all stilled and not burnt out.  that and she was also, at that point, having a bad headache and rather tiered as well from not allowing herself enough sleep and from the studies of being Amyrilin.

 

there are no characters that we know 100% have been burnt out, and have been healed.  i still remain to say the all instances where we have learned of people being burnt out have all been self inflicted.  it doesn't fit the exact definition of being stilled ebcause Rand wasn't setting out to Still them.  the cause of being Burnt out is "Taking in too much of the one power"  when Rand breaks out of the box, he doesn't cause the sisters "take in too much of the one power" instead he "severes their weaves with blunt force" and indirectly stilling them.  even the AS themselves, as well as Rand and the Wise Ones all say these three are STILLED.  it's mentioned many times after the fact. so here i am goin to go with RJ's written words over your guys assumed twisting of words.  and like wise, if you have evidence of them being burnt out, share it.

 

You can Travel to places you haven't been, and we see people do it often. Avi going to Seanchan in FOH springs to mind. Plus the Shadow is entirely capable of sending messages to it's servants, dreams or no dreams (and they probably can use the dream method, but you'll need to ask Luckers for a quote on that).

 

no, in PoD's she travels to a SeaFolk island; and even then how can you say she's never been there before.  she's held the shawl for how long?  and she hasn't been trapped to the tower for that whole time either.  chances are she has been there before.  and its been said in a few of the books that with traveling you have to know your beginning and end point.  which is why, in PoD's, the Ashaman with Perrin have to skim ahead to their before they open a gateway, so they know the ground they are opening the gateway on.  thats also why the traveling ground was made in Salidar, so the AS don't have to re-memorize a spot in Salidar for the return and departure every time they travel.

 

We don't know what the limits of Shai'tan's power are, so we can't say for sure that He can Heal severing. We also know that He has no reason to weaken His servant, it is counterprductive, and the only thing we know of that can do that would be someone of the same sex Healing the severed person in question. As for the plot of the book, bear in mind that this taes place off screen. It isn't hugely important. But we know one answer to be possible (BA does the Healing) and we know the other to be suppored by preciselt nothing (what you say). So where does this unnecessary plot complication come in? Inventing new powers off screen which are only ever used once yet we never see them and there is nothing to support them existing, as opposed to using the existing powers and abilities in the book to do something we know to be possile. Which one overcomplicates the plot?

 

yes having a memebr of the BA does complipicate the plot more.  now we have to know who it is, how they learned to heal someone being burnt out, and when they've been to SG before.  opposed to saying the DO did it when he re-made her, that is a bigger complication to the plot.  this being supported by the fact that he is the DO, he can do the impossible which is bring people BACK to life, so seeing as he can bring people back to life why is it so wrong to think he can also connect them back to the source.  he has the ability to tap into the "TRUE POWER" as well as the wheel itself, so compared to that your BA healing her fails miserably and only adds more to the already overwhelemed plot of this book.  i'll ask again, why the need for the BA to have done the healing instead of leaving it at the DO, which would make more sense seeing as he is the DO.

 

as we don't knwo the limits of the DO's power, we can't say that he didn't.  she's just a pwn to him and he has other pwns at this time that are able to do more distruction and are also more powerful than she.  He doesn't need a reason other than "because i can and because you tried to double cross me"  you have to think in terms of the DO himself.  He knows about her deal with Rand, that she intended to use the acess key and Callalandor to come slap him in the face and cross him.  he would also know that her feelings of Rand (or rather LTT) have not changed considering she still refers to him as LTT.  she still loves the man.  if he's the type of DL that i think he is (85% more evil and mean than Voldy) then he'd do it for shits and giggles.  to show her what happens when you do think of trying to cross the DO.  he takes away two of the things she prizes the most, her power and her freedom.  its a penalty for thinking of crossing him, she's still powerful enough to do what needs to be done; yet his point is made well enough that now she will think twice about it.  if you think of it in the aspect of being the DO, it makes sense to me.

 

it doesn't really hurt him any to take away half her power, she's still strong enough to do damage.  besides, shes just a pwn that needed a lesson; he has 6 or 7 other choosen to do his bidding for him that aren't in love with the DR as well as the dread lords and dark friends and BA and Shadar Haran.  weakening her in the power to teach her a lesson is miniscule compared to the forces that he has at his disposal.

 

and if you want to argue that he didn't know, well then i ask you this.  if he didn't know she wasn't planing to turn traitor then why is she now put in a mind trap?  same with Mohagiden (who i might add is the only other forsaken to have helped the other side at this point and remain alive; though it was forced on her.)  why the need for that hold on Lanfear if he didn't know?  the only reason i can see the need for those two to have a mind trap placed on them is because their a liability.  Mohegidein allowed herself to be captured then told her captures many useful weaves.  Lanfear was goign to try to destroy him with the DR.  with the mind trap placed on them, all Ishamael has to do is crush those viles and they are no more of a liability because the dead can't talk.  and maybe in order to place the trap on Lanfear she needed to be at that strength otherwise she could break free of it.

 

Tell you what, why don't you provide a quote saying that it is impossible for people that have been burned out to be Healed.

 

since you are so adament there is proof beyond a doubt in these books why don't you provide a quote saying "being burnt out" can be healed.

like i said, i want quotes from the book Lurkers.  all the "evidence" you have pointed out in this saying that what i think is wrong is your assumption of what RJ wrote and is not backed by direct fact.  RJ stated over and over again about them being stilled.  he states this many times through wiseones, the AS themselves and Rand.  he's also suggested through other AS in Salidar that being "Burnt out" cannot be healed because there is nothing to heal. 

He's staring at it as if lost, not looking intently. If you are going to infer things, you should at least do it from the actual language. Lan stumbles towards the door, Rand catches him and tells him there is nothing he can do, Lan says that he knows--and he says it hopelessly. He doesn't struggle, only stares at the ter'angreal--and that after saying that he knows there is nothing he can do, hopelessly.

 

yet he doesn't turn away and follow the pull of his new Aes Sedia until the Door Way is melted.  the fact that he is stairing hopelessly at the door way and the onlything holding him back from following after her even though he knows it's helpless to do so is Rand's flows of air.  he knew that she was going to die and didn't want him to follow after, and knew that he was also bonded to another AS, plus his love for Nyneave.  he doesn't state that she is gone, until the doorway is melted and only then does he stop stairing at the door way.  upon sayign those words he immediatley turns to start searching for his new AS.  if the bond would have snapped as Moiraine went through the door way he wouldn't have started to follow after her and would have mentioned something like "I know, i can't feel her, theres nothing i can do".  and instead of watching the door melt, he would have begun starting his journey out for his new AS at once.

 

Why? We've had the POV of one one Black Rebel--Delana, and it was not her. We've seen no others interact, heard none of their thoughts. As for Cyndane, her thought progression never goes near to what happened to her when she was resurrected. We also know she was soulbound, and that is never thought about either.

 

maybe we don't see any other black sisters because Delana is the only one among the rebels, other wise Aran'gar would be using others besides Delana to cause decinsion and confusion among the rebels (like her mission given to Delana)  besides, for a black sister to heal lanfear they would have had to travel to SG.  meaning they would have had to visit it before or spent a month skimming the blight.  as far as we know, even those among the high council in the BA haven't been to SG.  only the forsaken and possibly Taim.

 

Champ, you should really read before posting, because all of this has been covered. Firstly, everyone refers to it as stilling because it was done intentionally to them by Rand--but this is misleading. What Rand actually did was crush weaves they were maintaining and thus over-stressing their abilities to the point that it was seared out of them. Technically, they were burned out because of the strain, not because Rand intentionally set out to sever them from the Source--he did not.

 

But even if he had intended to still them, it was not 'stilling'. We have a clear description from Nynaeve of the weave used to still people. It is a knife-sharp weave, used to slice. None of that is in what Rand did. In crushing their webs at the point they held them in fists of spirit what he did burned them out--in terms of effect, i mean. The results would not have the sliced edged effect like what Nynaeve witnesses in Siuan, Leane or Logain.

 

i'm not posting it as if it's new info, i'm not idotic enough to think that i'm finding stuff in these books that you people (who have read the series more than once over) have not found yet; seeing as the books have been out much longer than i have been readign them.  i'm merely debating what you say, as you are doing to me, with how i veiwed and interpreted what is written.  which is what boards like this is for.  also, i'm not a guy and my nick name is Red; i'd really perfer you to use that instead of other names such as Champ (typically a fond name for boys, of which i'm lacking a part to be ;) ) just as i show you the respect and call you Lurkers instead of sweety or honey.

 

as for it being misleading, he very well could hav been but i doubt it because he refers too many times to them being stilled.  and no evidence of how the sisters acted points to them being anything but stilled.  like i said, as far as i have read, all the evidence point to that only you can burn yourself out and only by drawlign in too much of the power (or even  it couldd be caused by direct contact with a ter'angael whose disigned with the power to burn out the user)  Rand cut them off from the source, exactly the same as being stilled.  from everything that we've heard about being burnt out, it's all cases of self infliction, from drawlign too much of the power.

 

In terms of the reality what Rand did much like what occurs when women are burned out by ter'angreal. Egwene described it when she touches the broken Access Key in Tanchico--the broken ter'angreal over-stresses her ability. Lanfear implies that it should have burnt her out, or killed her outright--likely the only reason it didn't is because Egwene managed to break it.

 

no, Rand severs the knots that are holding him prisioner and breaks through the sheild with blunt force.  he doesn't cause the sisters to "draw in more of the power than they can handle" which is what leads to being burnt out.  he severed the bonds holding him and indirectly severed them from the source

 

So, for the interest of this discussion, for all that these women being severed came as a result of someone elses direct action, and thus is termed 'stilling' they were in fact burned out. And please, next time read before posting. I have no problem with you disagreeing, but re-raising these things as if they are some sort of new evidence? That's just rude.

 

once again i'd like to state that being burnt out is self inflicted, being stilled is the result of someone else cutting you off fromt he source; and that being burnt out cannot be healed becauase there is nothing left in the person to heal. and as i also said, i'm not raising this as if it's new evidence, i'm just stating what i think is the right answer just as you are doing to me.  so by calling me rude for doing this, you are also calling yourself rude.

 

What? Thats frankly rediculous. The woman was severed, and needed to be healed. The only ones with that knowledge where the Black Ajah amongst the Rebels. A dream message would make for an easy summons, and the Rebels were already treating where women chose to travel as a private matter known for them alone, so travelling to Shayol Ghoul also becomes a simple matter.

 

you cannot travel to a place youhave never been, you have to skim the area until you find it and then memorize the place in order to travel to that exact spot.  no where has it said that the forsaken are dreamers, and just because they can enter Tel'aran'rhiod doesn't mean they can enter the space inbetween the dream world and the waking world without the use of an angrael.  RJ never says whether the forsaken use one or not.

 

You would compare this to a dead man coming back to life in a world were such things are impossible?

 

you misunderstand what i'm comparing.  i'm comparing what those two things would do to the plot of each book.  by JKR bringing Sirius back fromt he dead (from the veil) would serve nothing to the plot of the books and only complicate the story further.  as would having Lanfear healed instead of just laying it at the DO's doing.

 

Champ, hypocracy is not a contradiction in terms. Hypocracy is where a person says one thing, but secretly does something that is in direct contradiction to what they just said. Like a person who rallys against prostitution which employing a prostitute, or a woman who tells her children lying is wrong, but then lies to them. That's hypocrisy.

 

The word i believe you are looking for is oxymoronic. Thats where two things that contradict each other are linked, like wise-fool, or living-dead. Better yet to simply say that it is a 'contradiction in terms'.

 

  here agiain i ask you to not use names like 'Champ' with me.  my nickname is Red and as i resepct you by using your choosen nickname i expect the same curtosy.  i've never been good with spellign and grammer and english other than speaking it.  hypocritical seemed to fit it at the time and i apologize for using it in the wrong context.

 

Of course you're wrong beyond that. There is nothing to prove being burned out cannot be healed--yes, we know it is a more complete process, with the person no longer being able to sense the source at all, but nothing in that says its impossible to heal, or that nothing at all is left--only that more is destroyed than in stilling. You don't really have any basis for such a comment. Especially not in the face of the realities of Sashelle, Ronaille and Irgain.

 

and again i'd liek to state RJ says through many people that they are stilled and not burnt out.  what makes me believe that being burnt out cannot be healed is the fact that it is describe as "having the ability to channel being burned out of you" and that you can no longer even sense the source.  with being stilled, you can still sense the source and there is soemthing there to re-attach the person to the source.

and also, please quote where it states in the book that one is severed if they loose contact with an angrael they are channeling through.  both myself and bubba disagree with this.

 

It doesn't say that anywhere in particular, but it logically follows from two facts:

 

1. A channeler who uses more of the One Power than he can safely handle risks burning himself out. (Verin warns Nynaeve about this in TGH paperback page 209-210, and no doubt there are other references to this as well.)

 

2. The primary purpose of an angreal is to increase the amount of One Power that a channeler can safely handle. (Moiraine mentions this to Rand in TEOTW paperback page 108.)

thank you for the quotes :)  while this suggest greatly that a person can burn themselves out using an angrael, i'm asking how one would be burnt out with an angrael being snatched out of their hand.  say you only channel at level 3, you use an angrael that allows you to channel at level 4.  i come alogn and snatch the angrael out of your hand, forcing you to lose contact with it.  in effect, you should drop back down to channeling at level 3, but feel totally exhuasted on the verge of collapsing from havign it taken away from you so abruptly.  i don't understand how it would cause the person to be burnt out.  please do correct me if i'm wrong.

the bond between Lan and Moraine didn't snap as soon as she went through the doorway.  Lan doesnt say "she's gone" until the doorway is melted.  because of the way he is looking intently at the door and is still driven to go in after Moiraine says to me that the Bond is there.  because had the Bond already been severed the urge to go to his new Aes Sedia would have out weighed chasing after Moiraine.

i agree totally with Grump.  and like he said, her letter to Thom confirmed it.  she even mentions "apologize to lan for me" in it.  she knew well ahead of time what was going to happen and had plans laid for it to fall exactly how events needed to fall for certain outcomes to happen.  while i'm not sure if she was stilled on the other side with the "snakes" thats debatable.  but i think that she wasn't stilled until she was in teh Finn's custody.

and like i will continue saying until i read a POV that says Lanfear was healed, it's no point to the plot to have her healed when the DO is in play.  and i figure that by this point, if it was a blakc sister that did heal her, RJ would have said so in the books either by a Black sister bragging about or Cyndane mentioning it.

and no being "Burnt out" and being "stilled" aren't the same thing.  quote the part in the book if it says different.  from all accounts that were told, only sisters who have been stilled have been healed.  even Rand says that "i feel a bit of remorse for stilling those sisters when i broke free" and that "the wise ones don't hold those sisters on guard because their stilled".  when your stilled theres somethign to re-attach your ability to touch the source (re-read Nyneves discription of healing a stilled woman).  when your severed, no link remains, the ability to channel is litterally burned out of you.  nadda remains to glue back together.  and i believe that only you can burn yourself out by taking in too much of the power; others can still you, but not burn you out. 

to me, having Cyndane healed by a member of the BA is along the same instances of people hoping for Sirius alive again in Deathly Hallows.  it would be nice, but serves nothing to the plot except to complicate things more.

so if i'm wrong, then prove me wrong.  quote direct quotes form the book that states information against my opinions blankly.  or something that suggests beyond a doubt.

and yes i know what Hypocritical means.  its a contradition in terms.  and yes, if you say shes burnt out but then say she was healed, it is a hypocritical statement.  because being 'burnt out' cannot be healed; there is nothing there to heal.

and also, please quote where it states in the book that one is severed if they loose contact with an angrael they are channeling through.  both myself and bubba disagree with this.

^very good points. but the mind trap doesn't effect Mohegidens ability to channel

another bit of beef i have with Lanfear being "healed".

you guys are saying she and Moiraine were burned out as they went through the door.  you guys object the possibillity that maybe the Finns have some ability to sever soemone from the Source (still them)

as we have been told, Stilling and being burnt out are different in a few ways.

Stillign is where someone cuts your abilit to channel, yet you can still feel the source.  i beleive it's been suggested that when a Sister "Burns herself out" the abilit to channel is seared out of her, and possibly she can no longer even feel the source.

the only reason why stilling can be heled, is because there is still a link that can be bridged; where as with burning out, it's burned away and no such link exists.

so by this logic, to say that Lanfear was burned out, and then healed is a conflict and hypocritical to say the least.  in essance, having your cake and eating it too.

as for "dieing is a means of escape" isn't one that Moiriane would choose to pick.  there is no certainty of being "reborn" back into the pattern like Lanfear and the other Forsaken for her.  not to mention, she knows that by folowing certain events and doing certain things the possibility of being rescued is greatly increased; she knows that there is a chance that Mat will come to rescue her, and that by Min's veiwing, she has to be there to help Rand at TG.  so no, dieing is a possibility that Moiriane wouldn't consider.

i still don't see why you all keep stating she was healed.  the DO had her remade, and therefor could do whatever he wanted with her (which is what he did) 

theres no way Lafear escaped the Finns, otherwise Moiraine would have too.

The DO is cruel, he made her weaker in the power than she was yet still strong enough to do the things he needs done.  after all, she was planning to go against him to rule the world with Rand since those access keys were found.  she says so herself.

she would have had neither time, nor ability to get to one of the black ajahs that knew how to heal her.  once she was reborn (and i doubt the DO would have reborn her w/out the power) she was placed under Moridins supervision.  it makes no sense to the plot and does nothing for it to have her healed by a Black Ajah member when its easy enough to lay everything as the DO's doing.

and as i was saying about the Finn's world.  i never said they were using the Power, but that they might have soem other way of controlling ones ability to channel; or maybe the ability to channel in such a place is negated (like at a stedding) and because it is their realm, they might actually have a way to cut one off from the source completely if they feel threatened.  which in the way Moiraine and Lanfear came busting into there, i'd feel threatened too.  i never once said or implicated that they could channel, nor do i think they can.  no one that we know of that can channel has went into the Elfinn's territory before and given us a POV, so its more than possible that, unlike the other Finn's, the ones that tried to kill matt have a barrier against channeling in their realm.

from what i was able to understand, once the bond that was connected to Moiriane was no longer there (severed, her death or being stilled) the bond would then transfer to Myrelle.

i think she did it this way, not onle because of the effect it normally has on a Warder (driving them to kill until killed) but because of Lan's "Marriage" with the shadow.  she knew that he wouldn't go to Nyneave and instead would run into the blight to continue trying to get killed liek he was before Moiriane ever bonded him.

as to the fight in the Dream world.  i must say to myself "How the hell did you miss that"  i was having work on my car done when i got to this point (i felt like a fool for sitting there tearing up cause of Moiriane) and must have misplaced my bookmarker.  thats the only reason i can think.  but i'm glad i came here and re-read that to see that awesome battle and i apologize for debating that with you Luckers.

;)  i explained how i think i missed this a little over 2 hours before you posted Boothe lol  good point though.  paper baacks do tend to loose pages. 

on my cpy of FoH the glue holding the cover on is and has been pealing off for a few months... reguardless of my efforts with Elmers Glue  :(

i'm re-reading as i'm wirting this

Moiraine had an Angreal that she took from Ruhdean, and Lanfear had a Bracelet angereal as well.  this is what it says

Suppressing a small bubb;e of hope -- she could not allow herself that luxury -- Moiraine balanced upright a moment on the wagontail' date=' then embraced the True Source and keaped at Lanfear.  The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine strck her, clawing the bracelet away.  Face to face, they toppled through th door frame [i']ter'angreal[/i]. White lightening swallowed everything.

it only says that she is clawing the angreal away from Lanfear, not that Moiraine gains control of it or if it is knocked to the ground.  just that it is away from Lanfear.  it does say that as soon as Lanfear is tackled by Moiraine, the flows holding Rand are gone; this could be evidence that by Moiraine knocking the angreal off of Lanfear while shes channeling through it was enough to burn her out her, or was just enough to slash the weaves.  (my guess is that it was enough to slash the weaves)

you are right about the white light. 

  The attacks on him ceased as the two wemon plunged through the doorframe ter'angreal in a flash of white light that did not end; it filled the subtly twisted redstone rectangle as though trying to flood through and striking some invisible barrier.  Lightings arched silver and blue around the ter'angreal' date=' more and more violently; rasping buzzes crackled through the air.[/quote']

 

after re-reading (and actually reading the chapter i seemed to have missed some how) i think the Elfin were some how able to still Lanfear and Moiraine.  like you guys have said, the Elfin didn't look to greatly upon the Shadow.  and the way that Moiraine and Lanfear came into their realm wouldn't have set well with them either. 

 

Lan's reaction while this is going on also says to me that Moiraine wasn't burned out or stilled before going into that doorframe.  not until the thing is melting does he simply say "She's gone" not "She's dead" but givien the circumstance the best assumption would be that she is dead.  in fact everyone believes this until the letter to Thom and Matt is revealed.  Rand does hold him back from going after her, tellign him "theres nothing you can do to help her" and Lan saying "Burn me, I know."

 

it could also be that since Moiraine was in a different realm; the Elfin were able to "sever all ties with the world" she was from; which would cause her bond with Lan to be severed as well.  but i don't see any evidence to say they were stilled or burnt out before goign through that door way.

 

i hope when we meet Moriaine again, she will tell us what did happen though.

 

as to the fight in the Dream world.  i must say to myself "How the hell did you miss that"  i was having work on my car done when i got to this point (i felt like a fool for sitting there tearing up cause of Moiriane) and must have misplaced my bookmarker.  thats the only reason i can think.  but i'm glad i came here and re-read that to see that awesome battle and i apologize for debating that with you Luckers.

What are you talking about, dude?  There was a huge battle scene between Rand and Rhavin which invloved Rand chasing Rhavin all through the Sun Palace and finally into TAR.  Once in TAR Rhavin got the upperhand and might have defeated Rand had Rand not gotten an assist from his old village Wisdom.  This assist distracted Rhavin enough to allow Rand the oppertunity to balefire his a$$ right out of the pattern.  It stands as one of my favorite one on one battles in the entire series.  Honestly, you need to go back and read the series again.  And please pay attention this time.

^ lol while that would have been interesting to read, this is what i read

-Rand and company (Egwene, Asmo, Mat, and Avendha) go to Caymlan(sp)

-Rahvin kills Rand's company with lightening

-Rand is pissed at this

-Rand skims to the Palace

-Yells out Rahvin.

-exit scene and enter happy epilogue with Egwene braiding Avendha's hair, Mat and Asmo are like "what the hell happened, maybe i don't want to know"  and is explained to us that Rahvin was killed using balefire which enabled those to come back to life (though interestingly enough not a large enough does to undue what Morgase did under his spell)

which leads to my major let down of a battle like you suggested not actually happening.  on this, my memory is rather well lmao

as to back to the Moraine and Lanfear being stilled.  like i had said, it's my opinon that Lanfear was killed due to a trade by Moraine with the elfin (my opinion meaning not fact and no evidence)  but they are both channeling on the way through the door frame which causes the door to melt if i remember  (my memory is still kinda overshadowed by Lanfears burst of true evilness at learning about Rand sleeping with Avendha and skinning the mercchant lmao than of Moraines sneak attack.)

i also remember very well that Moraine made preperations for Lan's bond to pass to another sister; she says "upon her death" but as we all know, Moraine isn't dead, other wise Mat and Thom wouldn't be on their way to rescue her from the Elfin.  it was easy enough for her to sever the bond and then the passing of the bond would take effect.  i believe that if an Aes Sedia cuts a bond between her warder and her, with out the Warder knowing if she is alive or not (especailly if the warder is told "hey i;m goign to die and i've made arangement for your bond to be passed") it will have the same effect ont he Warder as if his Aes Sedia had been killed right infront of him.

and nothing suggest that being stilled would cut the bond either, as long as the person is still alive or the bond is directly severed why would the bond disappear?  in the same way that ter'angles made with Sadin wouldn't hold the taint in them.

again, just opinion, and not fact.

i will have to re-read where Demandred goes to see the DO in LoC, i sort of remember the "final death thing" but not really.

i have to agree with you on the Bale Fire thing though.  i think it was Moraine who said Bale fire ripped them out of the pattern.  i had to think for a minute on how Rahvin died because thers no death show down like with Sammael lol  (which was a major let down, all this drama leading up to Rand laying the smack down and RJ just skips it lmao  i was looking forward to seeing Rahvin bitch slapped a few times around the lion throne)

i haven't read that last book yet, so when i do read the comment i will be sure to post that i was wrong.

i knew it was a stretch for saying Morridin and Slayer being the same, "just a feeling" remember.  so is Slayer like a Gohlam or Grey man, just a hand for hire doign the DO's bidding, or is he a forsaken re-born as well.

for some reason i also have a feeling that Slayer will be leading the Dark Hounds in TG, if he isn't already doing so.

(note to self, must stop conspiring and read last book ASAP lmao)

^even if Lanfear was stilled going through the door (the same woudl have happened to Moraine and that would seriously dappen her ability to help in TG) sightblinder would have no problem bending the pattern like he did with Osa'gar and Aran'gar, giving Lanfear a new body and restoring her ability to channel.  he has as much power as the creator in that sense and can do as he wish so long as he can touch the part needed.

edit-- besides i'm of the opinion, because Moriane is supposed to be still alive according to her letter to Mat.  Lanfear was killed due to an exchange made by Moraine to the Elfin.  Moraine had seen what was goign to happen and there for knew where to be, what to say and how to act according to the situation; therefor she had the ability to set Lanfear up for the ultamate fall.  thought i'm not saying Moraine will come out from this in perfect condition; as pointed out by Mat, the Elfin would cheat they're grandma if they could.

the only person comparing themselves to Cyndane that i can remember is Mohgedien (i'm on book 11 now so i very well could have not gotten to that part) so i can't really counter that as of yet.  if it happened in one of the books i've already read.  please let me know where so i can go back and re-read the part.

(i come from an HP site where we debated the book and cited ref's to the book.  understandably, HP is no where near as complexe nor as long.  4 RJ books equaling the whole HP series as far as page numbers lmao)

as for the reborn forsaken, i'm sorry but i can only agree with who Moridin is (also i believe Mordin, and Slayer and this Luc fellow are the same; just a feeling)  Cyndane is obvious to those who can't even read between the lines, so i don't bother meshing her in with it ;)

because i don't lnow much about Bel'al, Balthamel, or Aringor  i can't say if they match the personality to Aran'gar or Osan'gar.

Osang'ar i'm almost 100% convinced is Asmodaen.  referring to himself as 'a Genus', complaining about having to be in the front lines, and skulking aroudn in the shadows.  As far as i can remember, asmodean was well noted for his brains being the best quality in him, mostlikely the only reason he was made a Forsaken.  he's like Mohgedien, more apt to attack from the shadows and only when he see's the upper hand.  which is exactly how Osan'gar acted at Shadar Logoth.  also it sticks to me that he knew without having to get a clear picture that the male channeling was Rand.  while it was probably a common belief between the Forsaken that this was the work of the Dragon Reborn, the only male who would know his shape and know it's him without a doubt and not see his features would be Asmodaen because of how close they were for almost a year.  

as for Aran'gar, i'm more apt to believing it's Rahvin reborn.  Rahvin was actually protrayed as a womanizer for how he treated Morgase.  having 10 women as well as her bed him at the same time.  Rahvin was said to have been as bad as Semirage with his "pretty's"

i don't think there was any stilling or healing involved with Cyndane when Lanfear was transferred to her body.  there wasn't enough time, and she didn't connect with anoe who could.  by the time Mohegidien met her, Cyndane could already channel, in fact "the Spider" commented on it in her first PoV with Cyndane.

i think it's just the DO playing at his game again. like putting a male forsaken in Aran'gars body.  a cruel joke for failing him.  he knew that Lanfear diseiered power, so as punishment for both failing him and trying to turn traitor he took away most of her power.  leavign just strong enough to make it itht he forsaken, but just so.  i think Mohgedien said soemthign to the effect that Cyndane was just as strong or a little stronger than her in the power.

and while i haven't read the last book yet (just finished CoT last night) i still don't see any evidence as to who was remade into Aran'gar or Morridin or Shadar Haron(possibly); not like Cyndane(Lanfear) and Osan'gar(Asmodean).  if there is a thread proving this, with quotes; then please post it for me.  I'm willing to agree that it might be Ishamael that was re-born into Morridin;' he's always talked abotu being the most powerful and scary forsaken, most likely to be name Nea'Blis (at least thats the feeling i got from the little the forsaken have actually talked about him)  the other Forsaken i just don't knwo their personalities enough to judge them as being reborn into those bodies.