It seems difficult to imagine though what tower law they would be breaking specifically. We categorically see later on that the Ajahs and sisters do not have to pass on information that they don't want to, even regarding the Dragon. I suppose it could just be a vote of no confidence in their handling of the matter, but stilling seems slightly extreme unless it was a specific crime with a specific punishment. 

Of course, they could just be talking about the Black Ajah, as they have seen that all the Aes Sedai that knew about the coming of the dragon were tidily removed from the stones board, so it could be a combination of the other sisters being very unhappy which would leave even more vulnerable to the Black Ajah. 

But it is one of the weaknesses, I think, that the hierarchy in the White Tower is such an issue. We first hear, and repeatedly see in action throughout the books, that sisters can pretty much do whatever they feel like, and it is impolite to so much as enquire about someone else's activities. So we see each sister and Ajah as an independent island each on their own course in a splendid mixed metaphor. But then because we need a reason the young girls will actually be in charge, we see that a weaker Aes Sedai may not so much as sneeze or use the jakes without the stronger sister's permission. And it appears that one sister walking into the same room as a clearly stronger sister has essentially walked into permanent slavery until the stronger sister allows her to go her own way. Add in the powerlessness of the Hall to do anything useful, combined with Amyrlins and other sisters being terrified of what the Hall would do if they found out whatever (why?), and that the authority of the Amyrlin and the Hall does not seem to be constitutional but more ad hoc, it is a little bit of a mess. That does not even take into account the heads of the Ajahs and their attempt to take over the Tower. I think it best just to take it as complicated, and when the characters are talking about, they probably know more about than we do. Be trusting.

I thought it was outright stated that Ba'alzamon planted the whispers that come to the Emond's Field party in Caemlyn, which Moiraine takes as the pattern needing them to know. I took it as being up to reader to decide how much was the pattern requiring it, how much the prophecy (the Horn and everything was there for a reason, Tarwin's Gap, Falme) and how much it was actually the Dark One pulling the strings all along. 

Of course over the course of the books it seemed to me that the Shadow could not actually fight its way out of a wet paper bag, and all their schemes were singularly  ineffective except in snarling up a different plan of the Shadow, but in these early days it you could not really tell.

Maybe I misunderstood.

1 hour ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I appreciate your open minded response to my reaction to that aspect of the writing. 
 

as for all the focus on bosom…that always threw me off too! For just one example, why do we need to know the are females folding their arms beneath their breasts? We know how people fold their arms! The amount of bosom exposed in the way women dressed is frequently described. Don’t even get me started on the rampant spanking going on all over the damn place 😂

I would like to think that most readers understand that we all put so much into a book, and live with it for such a long time that there is no one right way experience it, the words on the page are only a seed. Unless of course, we are talking about the way I experience it, and then I'm right, you are all wrong, and I have my fingers in my ears "LALALA LAAA LAAA" and cannot hear you 😄

The arms folding I guess the male gaze in print. Like how pendants don't hang from people's necks, they nestle between breasts. I mean, it is great imagery, I cannot claim to be unaffected by such poetic words, but it is all from a low-key lecherous male view point. And yeah spankings, oh my aged grandmother. The pinnacle has to be Semirhage, how can we break this woman who will accept any pain, any torment, any torture, any reasoning... ah ha! The thing that is even worse than the ridiculous speed with which it is effective, is that Cadsuane comes to the idea by considering what would break herself. It is just is the solution to every problem in the books. They say that if all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. What did RJ have that every solution is a spanking? Not sure I want to know...

5 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Absolutely! You have beautifully illustrated the significance of incorporating sword craft in such a meaningful way and the exquisite artistry involved in order to embed it so authentically into the story and world building. I completely get it…which is why I was so hesitant to admit that it didn’t appeal to me 😂 it’s kinda like when people want to talk to me about sports and I’m like…meh

If it annoyed you, then it could be a sign that it was overused. I think it is a great way to describe a fight between masters of the sword, but that does not mean that it cannot be used too often, or in situations where it detracts from the action instead of adding to it. 

I cannot say it ever felt too much like that to me (but perhaps I was making exceptions due to my admiration of the writing mechanic), not in the way that, for instance, I was ready to throw the book out the window if there was another character who was physically perfect except for an over-abundance of bosom, or if a main female character borrowed clothes that were tight around chest and loose around the hips, as they are obviously all so anatomically bizarre that they need specially tailored clothes. 

Yes, in the story he simply can tell Wind is the best horse. And of course he is one the main characters in a story, how can you tell when he is being lucky and when just wearing plot armour? I mean, he is never going to fall down some stairs and break his neck. 

But I would certainly say it does seem like his luck is activated. Like in the Tower of Ghenji, he has to randomly choose directions. Why not just go any which way and that will be the right one? Or when he sees where Nynaeve and co are in Tear in the lightening strike (lucky!) but does not go there even though Thom has a cold (unlucky!). If you were always lucky, you would not have that kind of terrible bad luck, it nearly got them all killed! But of course, that did not happen because plot armour.  

I'd say when you think about, it becomes clear you just cannot look too deep into it as "luck" is not rational or objective, so you cannot have it perform in a rational way. You just have to accept it. 

24 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Haha, nope, you’re not the only one! I always had that same thought until I joined this forum not all that long ago. One example for me personally that I’m hesitant to admit because I don’t think anyone would agree, but what the hell…the points in the books that were saturated with descriptors of the sword forms during training but especially in battle are always distracting and irritating to me when I read them. I’m sure for most readers it enhances their immersion into the story, but for me it served the opposite purpose. I personally don’t need to know every minute detail of how each sword form could be described metaphorically! Ok, with that off my chest, I feel the need to clarify that I say this out of love and I love this series and the world of WOT, so it only adds to my enjoyment and devotion when I have gripes or annoyances. 

I think actually the sword forms are actually a method of describing the fighting without the having to go into the minutiae of the movements. I don't know how much RJ knew about sword-fighting, and it could be tricky to keep describing the actions of blademasters in a way that would be convincing to anyone. The forms give an easy way of describing the fight that is full of imagery, and is very succinct. 

Boar rushes down the mountain meets Parting the silk, says nothing concrete but the conjures up a lot of feeling and for me at least translates well to a vague feeling of a very involved sword fight. It also emphasizes that the combatants are highly trained, performing exact movements, and also stresses the chess-like aspect beyond strength and reactions. It is a mechanic I think is very well executed to convey a lot of imagery into the readers mind with few words and being vague enough that it is generated from within the reader so never can feel out of place. 

Of course, apparently it doesn't work for everyone 😄

17 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

The villagers from hinderstep where reinforced, Matt sent 100 of the red band to the village in the days before the lat battle, volunteers who agreed to go and die in the village so they could then come back and fight the last battle. I imagine that during that time they also spent time training the villagers how to fight in a more organised way. 

Agreed, but this only explains why they were a good force for a battle that almost certainly would be a loss. I can see no justification that they would definitely be strong enough to retake the dam, given the massive numerical superiority that the Shadow had, and the importance that the dam does not fall mid-battle. 

I would humbly suggest that the need to reveal that the villagers were the defending force at a dramatic point overruled the fact it made no sense that they would be tasked with retaking it, far less that the defenders would recognise them as the same people (could Mat be sure that it would even be same troops?), and the idea that this was why they would be so good to retake it as the defending forces would be too shocked to fight back. Reality has been coming apart for months, the defenders are dreadlords fighting alongside shadowspawn, commanded by a man 3,000 years old. A bunch of people that look kind of like another bunch of people that died, in my eyes, does not seem to have much shock impact, certainly not "I'm so shocked I won't channel but just watch the people kill me". 

As I see it at least, it was a nice idea, great actually; which for dramatic reasons was taken too far, into an area that was just dumb.

If Uno is dead, then he is not going to feature in the rest of the series. Probably, weird soul swapping notwithstanding.

So if someone else had died, they would also have needed his airtime to introduce that character. So Uno would not have featured at all. Here he can feature, and serve a plot point, and then at least has a reason for not being included later. Given that they wanted to kill someone in the scene, using a well-liked side character makes sense rather than a generic NPC and omitting the said well-liked side character. 

In my most humble opinion at least.

Hi all,

I am a long time fan of the books. Got tEotW out of the library back in 1993 or there abouts and loved it. Sometime later saw the whole trilogy in a book shop, so thought I would snap it up to look pretty on my bookshelf. It did not take long to finish the books and realise my misapprehension. 

Not regretted it though and have read all the books multiple times (new released, start again at the beginning first) up to book eleven. Then the sad news about RJ, and some major changes in my life, no more commuting, a change of country, small ugly creatures that crawl about and give you nightmares that I am reliably informed are called children. And I never finished the series. I did randomly pick up tGS and really enjoyed it, but I was scared. I mean, the end could not be good, could it? Such long series, by the law of all that is good and holy, have to be massive anticlimaxes and disappointments.

But then randomly I heard about the TV show, and this time decided to show some interest in it. Perhaps I did not have to be scared of being vulnerable? There was the chance the final books would not stomp all over heart. It probably was not a big chance, but I would be as brave as a slipper in the White Tower. 

And all in all, I am very happy to be back on speaking terms with Rand and co. Of course, the last couple of books had me tearing my hair out and shouting at the bemused stick insects I am currently looking after - for reasons that escape me at the moment - but I have missed them and compared to how awful the last books could have been, well, relatively speaking, they are awesome. 

And the books have always been a flawed masterpiece. Often that term is incorrectly used, as people mean, if it did not have the flaws, it would be a masterpiece, whereas the World of Time genuinely is a masterpiece despite and sometimes even because of those flaws. And I can now watch the TV series and trawl websites such as this fine one without fear of ruining the ending, just incase it was good after all.

Tl:dr I'm Kat and it is nice to meet you all, even the annoying ones.

I think the arrogance of men/Lews Therin is that when there was a disagreement, he just threw his toys out of the pram and went off and did what he wanted anyway, rather than reaching any consensus. That was always my reading of it, that he was so confident that his plan was right because it was his plan. As if he was the main character in a book! The arrogance, he's not even a side kick.

Rand learned from this and... worked out how to do it himself, and persuaded two friends to come along, which as they were girls counted for more consensus than 100 men. You see, how he managed it better? Then he swans off with a smirk on his face, thinking about all the times that he begged for sympathy because he was the only one guaranteed to die in the last battle, remarkably unconcerned about the heaps of dead of the field of Merrilor. Sorry, I think I am still processing the ending. I'm sure there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Verin was always suspicious, and because of that was always such an ambivalent character. It was a shame that she did not feature more, but I suppose it would become grating to have "ooo, I'm so ambiguous and secretive" rammed down our throats too much. 

Off the top of my head, there is where we meet her and she guesses that Rand is the DR, and Moraine wonders if she'll have to kill her (or such like). Then there is the ter'angreal for dreamwalking and her mysterious decision to not let Egwene see Corinne's notes on it, doubled down by the fact that it nearly kills Egwene in her Accepted test. She also keeps popping off without warning to turn up somewhere very important for the plot. Then she tells Perrin not to trust Aes Sedai or herself. She always seemed a little to knowing, which was probably better in small doses.

Definitely made me hungry to know what her deal was, without making me feel that she was an obstruction to the plot. The reveal did seem a little rushed, especially with the apparent complete misjudgment with Mat and his letter, but given the oaths, I suppose it was difficult to spin it out - if she had left a corpse in her rooms in Caemlyn for example, would that not have counted as letting people know? I suppose she could have been surprised in the act of something, but that could have eroded the reader's good will for her, and made her less ambiguous. 

" Oh. the oath rod is missing, I'll just kill myself then" seems more like a last minute realisation that the oath rod could have been used like that rather than an actual plot mechanic, and for me certainly detracted from the scene, and the fact that Egwene can dispose of the body without comment seems a little contrived when she is essentially under close arrest at the time.

For me she was a great character that really added depth to the idea that you did not know everything that was going on and the feeling like there were still so many possibilities of how things might turn out, without being willfully confusing or secretive. Like in the TDR where suspense is maintained by nearly never seeing anything from Rand's perspective, and when you do, he appears to be half hallucinating with a very tenuous grip on reality, so what he is doing or thinking is anyone's guess. And then when he is in Tear, is completely coherent again. 

A heavy half moon blade balanced by a thick spike.

I was wondering if I was the only one that was affected by such phrases so often repeated, maybe I was being unfair and just sensitive about sections that possibly weren't even that similar. 

But no, apparently not.

With the lightening thing, does not Ba'alzamon say "one minute you hide, the next minute you light a bonfire that can be seen for miles"? I paraphrase, and perhaps I am misremembering but I am pretty sure this was referring to Four Kings, and with his illness following it, I think it is quite certain it was not natural lightening.

On a side note, I love Mat's character, but I hate the trope of the gambler that always wins. If you always win, or even only win 51% of the time, it is not a gamble; it is an investment. It is cheating. For someone who loves to gamble, it would be horrible. If you win more than you lose, it is not reckless to gamble, it is common sense. You are not a gambler if you always win more than you lose. It is such a contradiction that becomes a plot mainstay that is really frustrating. It is like being a great drinker, but you cannot get drunk, and it has no effect on your health...

I would say that there would be binders for both genders, the stories about criminals being bound were not limited to women. But I would also say it would not have worked. Just as an Aes Sedai can tell a lie if she thinks it is true (Logain set up by the Red Ajah, for example), when the men were mad they could have thought that they were doing something quite different than they were. Even making swear not to touch the source (which they probably would not have done, or they could have stayed in the steddings) would not help if you did it unintentionally or subconsciously. Probably.

I was always waiting for them to find out that the tree songs were essentially what they were looking, but it never happened. 

I can only hazard that with there being a planned Seanchan story to come after the Last Battle, this explains why the issues of, for example, the damane and the tinkers (in Seanchan lands) were never dealt with before the last battle. Which does leave a bit of an itch, but I we have to be grateful for what we did get in the end.

I agree with a lot of the points here (especially the corporal punishment being such a normal thing, with such an emphasis on young women and within relationships, in which it is a positive thing, not a negative thing). There are other points where sometimes I think we can see more than we should of RJ's mind, such as the White Tower's novice quarters being a hotbed of sapphic love, whereas warder's students, army camps, the Fortress of Light, Borderland defensive towers, Aiel warrior societies, or any all male environments are all completely platonic.

One of things that really got me a lot of the relationships is that the use of prophecy let's everyone know that they are on the right track. Spoilers for later in the series.

For me it is not that Demandred never learns that Mat is fighting him, it is that Mat does not beat him. As the battle is progressing, 

Demandred is completely coping with Mat, while using balefire to annihilate huge sections of Mat's army (where the books don't quite explain how having whole pike formations crushed the army continues to fight). Mat is trying to get Demandred to bet big on a losing hand while minimizing his own losses on every other hand.

The Seanchan come back for a classic will they won't they moment, ignoring that their absence must have increased the morale of the shadow as much as it lowered the morale of the good guys. However the feigned retreat had not caused Demandred to act in any way that helped Mat. The Seanchan should only have returned once Demandred had committed to Mat's ruse. But of course in the 53rd unnecessary duel, Demandred is killed, while still whipping the armies of the light.

Then Mat pulls off his trick with the river (I really did not like the villagers from Hinderstap coming back, I mean genius using them as a last stand to make it look like Mat was trying to hold the river, and sow seeds as to why Mat would leave them to die so heartlessly, but in the reveal there is no reason that the band of villagers would then be strong enough to retake the dam, Mat could have sent half the Seanchan army or any other reserves from anywhere in Westlands, a bunch of villagers who weren't enough to hold dam could hardly be expected to be definitely able to re-capture it, which was pretty essential, and the apparent explanation of why is that the defenders could recognise that they were the same people (how would that be so obvious?) and that when they did they would be so shocked (in the Last Battle, no less) that they would let them kill them as opposed to just vapourising them with the One Power. Sounds legit, like the bad guys in the A-Team being so upset about being covered in custard, they forget they were armed with M60 machine guns, every, single, week. But I digress.)

And there is no baiting Demandred into a mistake, not least because he is dead. All of Mat's stratagems are not enough and it takes essentially a deus ex machina in the Horn of Valere to win the day. So the whole point of Mat's battle memories, and the meeting of the Shadow's greatest general against the Light's, just fizzles out. Given that the real battle was at Shayol Ghul, it just makes the whole battle, all the deaths, everything seem even more pointless. 

Sorry, I could not quite see anyway of discussing that without exclusively using spoilers. Also, I covered slightly more than I had originally meant to. I think the pain runs deep 😄

And seeing as I cannot mention the last battle without saying

I won't.