
Elglin
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S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn
Elglin replied to A Memory Of Why's topic in Wheel of Time TV Show
Nope. "Tell them I'm dead so that I can live my life apart from them and they from me" vs "I scoot off where the freaking prophecy needs me freaking be so that you all don't need to die in the process". That's very much not like. Quoting none other than Tam al'Thor, "Even if you don't choose what to do, you always get to choose why you do it". It makes her a potentially dangerous yet situationally useful ally. And the "so he will only turn to the dark" is well-concealed. But she has at least the common courtesy of taking good care of the object of her manipulations. You're asking the wrong question. It's about the interest of making Rand do what they think Rand must do. Manipulating him. Making him another False Dragon on an Aes Sedai leash. Turning to the Dark does not figure in this equation. That's what's way different in the show as compared to the books, and if you disagree, go rewatch S2 finale. You contradict yourself in the very same line. Lanfear cares first and foremost for herself. But she is not a flat character (y'know, the hills of Tanchico) with only one thought or emotion. She has big plans and big ambitions, many of which require LTT by her side. And she has the common sense and the common courtesy of letting and helping Rand grow into LTT - sure, the version of LTT that is "her fervent lover", but that's Lanfear after all. And she wants to groom Rand to be become her fervent lover rather than compulse him - she's no Graendal. So, yes, her sympathy and care for Rand/LTT is secondary, but in the show only, and in absolute figures, that's still more than Rand gets from anyone else! Largely because it's secondary for them as well, and of the poor execution/writing. I'm not twisted up. In fact, all that I say here applies well to the Book!Lanfear. In the books, she's a touch less subtle, a touch more impatient, a touch less level-headed. This does not make a qualitative difference. What makes one is that Rand is deprived of most of character-forming events and of most of the moral support he had in the books - and this makes him a much more vulnerable and receptive target for Show!Lanfear's advances. But it does not matter much - as I've already written on these boards, Rand is at the moment reduced to being a supporting character in his own show and it's pretty likely he won't be needed at Shayol Ghul at all - aside from a token presence to appease the fans. -
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S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn
Elglin replied to A Memory Of Why's topic in Wheel of Time TV Show
Let me cry out loud: this is not the book Rand! After S1, he broke all ties and tried to vanish. That includes breaking up the relationship with Egwene which, at that point, was even more dead than at a comparable point (end of EotW) in the books. Then, he met Selene, admittedly in milder circumstances than in TGH. And... she was caring, understanding and etcetera. Sure, with lots of ulterior motive, but Lanfear did love LTT (in her own way) and, in the show, does love Rand (in her own way) without calling him LTT at every opportunity (because show viewers would be mightily confused otherwise). Furthermore, if you judge by the actions of everyone involved across S2, Lanfear, ironically, is Rand's truest ally. She is way more subtle about putting him on the leash, she is of more help than Moiraine and Siuan combined... and she's more helping and more honest. Sure, she has her interest in constant view, but so does everyone else. Until Rand learns of Lanfear's torturing Egwene in her dreams, he does not have a reason to cross her or break up with her. Sure, she manipulates him and plays him, but this only means that she succeeds where Moiraine fails, ironically, because Lanfear cares more for him. Should he have told anyone about his regular TAR makeout sessions? Why on Earth? At this point, he's got no one close who is more trustworthy than Lanfear herself. And everyone would freak out. And those sessions are both nice and useful. To be honest, the conclusion that "you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her fervent lover" would be much more appropriate for the show version of characters than whatever we got. Well, this comes from the same studio that made the freaking Sauron the most likeable character in Rings of Power, so I guess we all get what we pay for. -
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Wheel of Time Season 3 - Full Season Discussion
Elglin replied to SinisterDeath's topic in Wheel of Time TV Show
Rand was largely offscreen during TDR and he's not as important as Moiraine (mostly offscreen in TGH) to invent something for him, so skipping Tear largely makes sense in the adaptation. Asmodean either appears later or is cut or whatever. Moiraine gets Sammael to teach Rand as opposed to Rand getting this idea himself (with inspiration from Lanfear) because Rosamund Pike is the show headliner while Rand is largely a supporting character in the show. If we lose the siege of Cairhien, that also means major savings as battles aren't cheap to film. Also, remembering what they did with Falme, it's probably for the better that we are not getting another major battle. Pairing Mat with Min is pretty fine both temporarily (Min/Rand isn't a major thing in the books till LOC or even ACOS) or even permanently - I'm not sure we are getting Tuon and the Seanchan invasion remotely close to the original. Killing Siuan off makes sense - actors aren't cheap, and with Gareth Bryne possibly cut, she wouldn't have much to do anyway. Also, Egwene does not need any major teaching from Siuan/Leanne, no more than she needed anything but basic instruction from Bair/Melaine. She's the showrunner's favorite, she has new knowledge/powers as befits her. The show has to rush things terribly given the sheer volume of the books, and it sometimes means that events are sketched out rather than shown. I can't say they did anything wrong with Thom/Elayne yet. All in all, the show does a reasonably decent adaptation job, and this season saw a marked jump in quality. There are still chronic issues (Moiraine, Egwene, Alanna/Maxim), but at this point it's either drop the show or make your peace with them. There is a snowballing problem in this show which so far hasn't reared its head in its full ugliness, but I feel is still a ticking time bomb. Jordan's narrative, for all its wordiness, was logical and cohesive. That got cut, merged, cut again, rearranged etc. ad infinitum. This means that there is a growing discrepancy between where a character was (and I don't mean just the location) at a certain point in the books and in the show, which means, in turn, that if he/she continues acting more or less as it was in the books, it becomes increasingly weirder, and if they try to preserve the show logic, the story morphs into a Jordan fanfic. Time will tell if they manage to handle it properly. -
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S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn
Elglin replied to A Memory Of Why's topic in Wheel of Time TV Show
Thought-crime is still a crime, citizen. Especially if both girls can and do read your thoughts. I beg to differ. A major part of the tension between Avi and Rand was that Avi promised to watch him for Elayne, then found herself thrust at him, then found herself falling for him, then saw in Rhuidean in no uncertain terms that she will fall for him and will lay with him and will break her promise to Elayne, and (hopefully we see it next season) then Rand in his wisdom and oblivion stumbled perfectly through the Aiel courtship rituals with all-around approval. This won't happen here. "There's that girl I had a one-night stand with, and now I am falling for a guy, am I cheating?" is pretty lame compared to Avi's conflict in the books. I may not be reading Ayoola Smart properly, but I haven't seen anything like "looking at him most of the time as if he had committed some crime against her". I read her mimics as half annoyed and half bored - which is quite plausible for Avi exactly if this moral conflict isn't there to begin with. Rand's "nice relationship with Elayne" is hardly at the book point of him leaving the Royal Gardens; and the Avi-Elayne relationship (including the dream Egwene witnessed) hardly leaves any place for him in Elayne's love life, at least at the moment. Ironically, as related to Min, Rand is exactly where he was in the books, pretty oblivious - it's she who isn't there. Thus, no, romantically Rand isn't where he was in the books, and neither are all the five females involved (Egwene, Min, Lanfear, Elayne, Aviendha). Book: long since peacefully drifted away from Egwene, unaware of Min who kind of holds the torch for him, treading carefully around Lanfear, kind of in a long distance yet committed relationship with Elayne, pretty oblivious to Aviendha's having an internal conflict and a growing UST towards him. Show: freshly broken up with Egwene in an equally dramatic and dumb fashion, unaware of Min not having any feelings towards him, freshly broken with Lanfear after having a much more invested relationship than ever in the books, in no relationship with Elayne whatsoever who herself holds a torch for someone else, and Rafe only knows whether anything with Aviendha is going to be a thing. That's not "exactly where he was", that's not even the same area code. -
S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn
Elglin replied to A Memory Of Why's topic in Wheel of Time TV Show
Well, two-timing is statistically pretty frequent, so I wouldn't put it against him. That's not the problem. The problem is that Rand's romantic arc got screwed dramatically. In the books, Egwene was pretty against a romantic liaison with a freaking Dragon Reborn, and due to this and else, they gradually drifted apart, which was best summed by Min close to the end of TGH: "You tossed him aside for the White Tower. What should you care if I pick him up?" Selene notwithstanding, between Elayne, Else Grinwell, and Berelain, between Lan, Hurin, and Thom (and Loial), Rand had no shortage in both romantic flings and healthy relationships with people who cared for him on a personal level. So by the end of TSR, he's a pretty level-headed person who kind of is in a long-distance relationship with Elayne. Yeah, Jordan had no clue how to write romance, so what. In the show, Rand is screwed. Selene, for a long time, is the only freaking person who at least says she cares for him (and imho she really does, in her own way, of course). Hurin and Loial being absent, there's zero reason not to screw her, especially as she's all for it. And continuously through Season 2, Lanfear is the only person who really cares for Rand on a personal level - sure, in her own way, but beggars can't be choosers. In the books, at Falme, Lanfear quips to Min: "Tend him well for me until I come for him." Since then, she did keep some tabs on him, but since her concern is not losing him to that milksop Ilyena, she probably cared little and less for Berelain and even Elayne. In the show, Egwene and Rand kind of rekindle their relationship, although both don't have their hearts in it, and Lanfear starts torturing Egwene... just because she can, really. Well, not great, not terrible, but then we have Rand dramatically breaking up with Lanfear on that, and... Rafe's biggest screw-up. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. What happened to Lanfear after she learned Rand had lain with Aviendha? She went bonkers, and not in "revenge is best served cold" mode, but in the "I'll kill them all right freaking now" mode. And that was the same Lanfear, who, at the end of TSR, said: "I thought you had realized you did not love that little farmgirl." and "I do not kill without cause, Lews Therin. I do not even hurt without cause." What of that did we get in the show? Lanfear going for Moiraine? Oh, please, it was Egwene who should have ended up (only mostly) dead. So here's the problem. Due to lots of people either getting cut or not being where they should have been or when they should have been there, Rand's romantic plotline, itself hardly strong in the books, got completely destroyed, and in a rather nonsensical way. So, yeah, the show managed to make Rand's love life even less plausible than it was in the books. A round of applause is well-warranted. -
Throughout history, humans generally screwed each other like rabbits. Because that's what people do. Silphium (if we believe the ancient authors, a pretty efficient contraceptive/abortifacient) got wiped out across the entire Mediterranean because everyone jumped at the opportunity of screwing each other without getting the female pregnant. Oh, and that heartleaf tea seems to be a Randland equivalent. On another note, have you seen Renaissance paintings? Did it strike you as odd that the Roman soldiers arresting Jesus are wearing pretty accurate 16th century armor... as opposed to 1st century one? The same rings true with the current show and many other artistic works - they use their contemporary rather than historically accurate convention. And the contemporary convention, at least here in continental Europe, is that consensual sex is good, lots of sex is also good, sex is no big deal and sex-ed is a part of the school curriculum. On to the topic. You see, portraying romantic tension, a blossoming relationship etc. takes quite some writing, directing and acting effort. A "screw one another" scene requires... much less. The accusations that "the writers know only one way to write a romantic relationship: make the characters bang" are sadly pretty close to home. Oh, and those stolen gazes, half-touches etc. will be lost on the mass audience with a bag of popcorn and a six-pack of beer, but a bang scene - that will be appreciated. So it's the not-so-skilled creators trying to give a mass and not-too-sophisticated audience what they think it appreciates. Game of Thrones and its successors made sex on TV ubiquitous - "It's not porn, it's HBO" (search on YouTube, NSFW) Onward to kinkier things. Jordan was writing fantasy after all, so a lot of romance/sex (incl. implied) is safe, sane, and consensual. Which is kind of a good thing, really. However, boy did he like kinky things... The books are pretty rich in nice women harassing men with pretty obvious intentions, but, say, Berelain got cut. Next season, Rand should have a fairly mad passionate sex scene, which I expect to be pretty bland if we get it at all. If we ever get Ebou Dar, I wonder how on Earth they will portray the Mat-vs-Tylin arc. But as I've said already, the showrunners are targeting a wide, generic and average audience, so they are very unlikely to experiment, and we are getting "PG-13 rated sex" as a result. Which isn't that bad. The only really bad thing is what I've written above: we are getting "A and B bang" as a substitution of proper romantic subplots. This works in porn (although memetic masterpieces like "warum liegt hier Stroh" or "Alarm, Alarm" beg to differ), less so in regular series.
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S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn
Elglin replied to A Memory Of Why's topic in Wheel of Time TV Show
First, the show, despite a marked improvement this season, still has quite a few cases of bad writing. Then, Rand has the misfortune of being in the same plotline with the series headliner Rosamund Pike (Moiraine) and showrunner favorite Egwene. It's quite some achievement, I should say, that Josha Stradowski manages to portray a remarkably close-to-books Rand. And the problem is, we don't have anything remotely close to book experiences to flesh out Rand (and his relations). This Rand never went on a daring stealth recovery of the Horn of Valere and never went through the Game of Houses plot in Cairhien. His relationship with Selene (btw I'm super fine with the show's interpretation, esp. as Natasha O'Keefe does a terrific job as Lanfear) is way different. He never had the character-shaping battle with Ishamael in Falme, he never saved the forces of Shienar in Tarwin's Gap. He never took the Stone of Tear, he never fell into Caemlyn's Royal Gardens and never kissed Elayne. He never tried (and succeeded) not to be an Aes Sedai toy of a False Dragon on a leash. He's basically entitled right now, as a combination of plot hacking fallout across three seasons and occasional bad writing, to do and to be as Rafe damn well pleases. Once again, big thanks to Josha for giving us the Rand we'd like to see despite all that. -
S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn
Elglin replied to A Memory Of Why's topic in Wheel of Time TV Show
Those are completely different things. Fulfilling the toh to the dead girl shows Rand at least partly embracing and certainly valuing the Aiel culture (just like in the books) and his remorse and guilt complex with that list of dead women (also just like in the books). This is the emotional part of Rand. Siding with Show!Moiraine is different. Through TDR and TSR Rand gradually embraces the fact that he is what he is and that walking the path of the prophecies is a reasonable choice (not much different in the show). He is now set on his path. The Show!Moiraine, much, much more than the book version of her, regards him as a thing. A self-propelled rapid-fire guided nuclear missile launcher. This makes her very pragmatic and rational and exactly for that reason predictable. Which is a big reason that Show!Rand is fine with that - it so happens that her goals align well with his, so she is a useful and predictable situational ally. Is that too pragmatic for Rand? Well, that's the same guy who used a captured Forsaken to train him for an entire book. Rand can be very pragmatic at times, although it's quite a few books and quite some shit later that he becomes pragmatism incarnate. -
S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn
Elglin replied to A Memory Of Why's topic in Wheel of Time TV Show
Well, it was a marked improvement over the previous seasons' finales. Which isn't too high a bar to clear. The Wheel of Time saga was Rand's story. It was also a story of loads of other characters, but if there was a main hero, it was Rand. It's the third season (although less guilty than the first two at that) that the show tries to make Rand a supporting character in his own story - much like what Netflix's Witcher did to Geralt. In TSR, Rand overpowers, captures and binds a Forsaken to his will. Granted, the weakest of them, and with Lanfear's help, but there you go. Here, instead of "I understand master Natael, but don't approve", we have Moiraine capturing Sammael and having this idea for him to train Rand all by herself. No matter how hard Mr. Judkins tries to make fetch happen, it's not going to happen. Rosamund Pike is a fine actress, Moiraine is a fine character, but shoehorning her into where the character does not belong does not improve the show, it degrades it. Ditto for Egwene, who can do things because she just can. The Egwene who overpowered Mesaana in TAR in the later books was the Egwene of multiple months of training, and practice, and experience, and, and, and. Apparently, she now can dispose of Lanfear in TAR because she can, and to the devil with the argument that at this point in the story the only person with more skill and power in TAR than Lanfear is maybe Moghedien. And that's my biggest problem with the show. I did and do cut it a lot of slack in rearranging stuff or merging characters or cutting secondary plotlines (Nynaeve's block gone three books early? - Fine, let's see how it works out. Siuan killed off? - Well, if the show cuts Gareth Bryne which is may, she is expendable, etc. etc.), although the ripple effects of people being not in the correct place and not having done the correct thing start to mount. But seeing things that Rand did in the books, which, in the books, were pretty formative for him, constantly taken from him and assigned to Egwene/Moiraine is something I can't fathom. At this rate, the next season's finale could be Moiraine, Egwene and Alanna (and Maxim!) traveling to Shayol Ghul and disposing of the Dark One just because they suddenly can.