On 4/8/2023 at 6:37 PM, Sabio said:

Dem was most likely partially insane at the end because of his relying on the True power from the DO.  One of the side effects is insanity.  He had to use so it would seem like divine power he was using in Shara.   At the end I'm pretty sure Dem was suffering side effects of the True Power.   Moghi even remarked how Dem had changed since being around the Sharans. 

 

Dem's issue was the second place syndrome.  He was always coming in second to LTT.  LTT was born a day before Dem, LTT was stronger in the power, considered a better general, held higher offices, LTT even won the heart of the Lady Dem liked.  Even back in the War of Power Dem was obsessed with being the one to destroy the Dragon.  I think the True Power just heightened Dem's obsession.

This might be off topic and possibly needs its own thread, but I have some confusion about the true power….if it comes with risks including insanity, what is the purpose or benefit that draws or tempts moridin or dem or whoever of channeling it instead of one power?

On 4/8/2023 at 2:30 PM, Disco said:

I have to say that I don't hate the "lanfear survived" theory

 

She was completely full of her own self worth so it's not surprising that she thought that everyone would chase her down unless she faked her death

 

She went against the dark one multiple times showing she was more like a mordeth character - some form of separate evil

 

Lastly the final interaction between her and Rand I think showed that she never wanted to be sworn to the dark one but whatever occurred she could not show vulnerability to someone else by proving it to Rand. 

 

I feel like there could be more to her than people realise... Haven't thought this one threw but maybe she really did love Lews Therin... Maybe yes power was great and she had a hard time expressing her love but I had the impression that part of the reason she couldn't show Rand her true self was he would see how much she did love Lews.

 

PS. I also couldn't help but wonder if Demandred might have been under the slightest bit of complusion to amplify his hatred of Lews. Everyone remarked how overwhelming it was in an otherwise logical person and Rand spoke about his turning being the "most tragic". 

I always wondered whether lanfears obsessive love for LTT was real or not, and if it was, how much it influenced her psyche and actions once she was set aside by him. Love makes people do crazy things sometimes….

21 hours ago, Disco said:

If you named your kid Elayne you'd have to live with it being a spoiled brat who thinks she knows better than everyone, never learns her lesson and refuses to love her brother because he told on her a few times 

If names determined characteristics, I’d personally avoid naming anything nyneave 😂

4 hours ago, Sabio said:

Thinking Rand died a hero is better than being told your sons soul is now walking around in another body. That might be pretty freaky to deal with.   Rand's plan to live a normal life would be ruined if he told Tam, Perin, Mat, Nyn, Moiraine, etc.  What's that saying in the book a clean wound heals the quickest?  Not to mention Rand has no idea what has happened to all of the Forsaken, anyone he cares about is still a target if any surviving Forsaken gets a hint he might still be alive.

In the context of in world logistics, this makes sense 

5 hours ago, Disco said:

I recently reread the series for the first time in over a decade. Things have changed in my life then, I am now a parent.

 

Something really bothered me and the end of MoL. Okay so.. Rand and Tam was always treated a little strangely. Rand never saw Tam again until Cadsuane brought them together. Rand told himself he was protecting them and maybe be believed it. But this was "dark rand" and to an extent it all made sense.

 

But then we have "Zen Rand" who loves his father and thinks that his upbringing is the main difference between him and Lews. Yet... he lets Tam bury him! Even if Tam finds out the next day that Rand is dead, Tam spent 24 hours having buried his only child. That's horrible. But even having said that, I get no indication Rand is going to reveal himself to Tam as he rides away. 

 

Elayne, Min and Avi know. Cadsuane knows and Nynaeve probably does, or knows enough. Sometimes I think that Moirane had a right to know, but perhaps not. Really as I go away from the book I have to have faith that Nynaeve would figure it out and tell Tam. Despite her... demeanour at the start of the books... she really becomes  a voice of wisdom at the end. And she deeply cares for people, especially Two Rivers folk. I cannot see her allowing Tam to mourn the death of his boy like that. But as I read the books, Rand apparently doesn't care. I do not think Elayne would ever tell Tam, nor do I think Min would. Avi might, she has more honour and sense about these things than the others. But now I am really getting into theory-land. 

 

I have seen a few old threads theorising what Rand will do with his new life. But no one seemed to think that Tam had been mistreated, it was more like "maybe he will tell Tam, maybe he won't". 

 

I guess there is another question.. where does it stop? Mat might tell his wife. Perrin could probably be trusted. The more people know the more it might become known, which obviously Rand wants to avoid. 

 

So I guess my rant ends with... do you think Tam was harshly done by at the end? Do you think Rand would tell him? Do you think anyone else would?

I hear ya. I know it’s a story and all but it’s hard for me to dismiss the effects of the outcome on people like tam. 

5 hours ago, Disco said:

Best book shadow rising/fires

Worst CoT

 

Favourite character is very hard. I loved nynaeves arc. She was very difficult to begin with but she became more sure of herself and her heart shone through. Galad also had a great arc and I thought was a fantastic and interesting character. Moraine too but she wasn't in a lot. Everyone loves Mat, you have to. 

 

Most hated character is easily Gawyn. I could rant about him but he was toxic and absolutely full of himself. He did more for the shadow than most of the forsaken

 

Edit - favourite scene when I read it for the first time... Galad challenging Valda. At this point I loved his character concept but thought he'd be "infantile" for the duration books. It shocked me, I loved it, and I still get goosebumps reading it.

I love your thoughts here… thank you for sharing 

On 4/2/2023 at 7:17 PM, Sabio said:

What I meant by dead is dead is if Perin dies then Perin is dead.  Eventually his soul will be spun out again.   But he would be a new person.  People expect that sooner or later a soul will be spun out again.  If Perin was to be reborn, he would be an infant.  If it somehow it was just a month, Perin would be a baby with no memories of his past life.  When you're being spun out again, you're a new person.  What people think is impossible or don't know about is the DO being able to take your soul and place it in a body.  Now your soul is in an adult body with memories of who you were.  Ishy died but the actual Ishy soul might be in a new body but it still remembers being Ishy, at times behaves like Ishy etc.  

This idea always intrigued me. The inhabitants of the WOT world are all aware and accept (not just a religious or personal belief depending on the person as in our world but seemingly a basic fact known to everyone) that the wheel spins out their souls in an infinite cycle. Basically making the substance or essence or soul, the core consciousness immortal but the specific “identity” and circumstances change from life to life. In contrast, the forsaken have the perspective or desire to achieve immortality through maintaining continuity of one version of identity or aspect of self existing indefinitely. I wonder if that is why moridin aka all of his previous names got to the point where he just had enough and wanted to be done with the whole thing?

On 4/2/2023 at 4:42 AM, Kalessin said:

In my current reread of WOt, I've noticed again, how RJ manages to allude to various stories, rather than directly reference them. Culain's Hound, the inn where Verin and Alanna Seadai stay at with their collection of Two Rivers prospective novices such as Mat's sister Bodewhin, is one such; and if you don't know the story of how Cuchulainn of the Ulster Cycle of Old Irish stories, got his distinctive name, it'll slip right by you.

 

To wit, the young man Setanta was defending himself against the smith Culann's fierce guard dog, and killed it. He offered to take its place until a replacement could be found and thus became known as Cu Chulainn - Culann's Hound.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cú_Chulainn

Fascinating! I’m one such reader who would never have known there was anything to the name of the inn had I not seen your post. I’m sure I miss more than I catch when I’m reading. 

On 4/3/2023 at 4:39 PM, Gypsum said:

 

Oh, I read the horse stuff because I own two of them and will read anything horsey in great detail, and then find myself annoyed because many writers (including Jordan) make it obvious that they've never ridden or spent any meaningful time with horses and have no idea what they are talking about.

 

I think Jordan is at his best in action scenes or when he's inside people's heads dealing with their psychological woes. I'm inching slowly towards the 'box scenes' in my Lord of Chaos reread, dreading it because it was really traumatic the first time, and won't have got better. His writing was so powerful and convincing, like watching a movie.

The box scenes in LOC on my first reread legitimately induced panic and anxiety when I read it. I recently reread it and it wasn’t any easier the second time. 

Thank you all for sharing your perspectives and experiences. As I’ve only experienced the series as a whole, back to back, I was always curious what it would have been like if I hadn’t, and how many things would have been more impactful if I had time to think about it between books. I see a lot more of these things in the writing that are unsettling to the point of being disturbing or at least distracting as I progress through my reread, now that I’m not just trying to devour the story but actually taking it in. I appreciate you all giving me some glimpses of how you responded to things one book at a time. For good or ill, comfortable or uncomfortable, RJ in my opinion seems quite skilled in his ability to invoke a significant variety of deeply internal and personal reactions in his readers. 

15 hours ago, Elgee said:

 

I'm trying to figure out now if I feel the same way about that, or not ... I do also love when something that RJ mentioned briefly 12 books ago, suddenly pops back up in a significant way (the fore-shadowing, as it's referred to here). Is that unrelated to your premise above, or in contradiction? Ima have to ponder! 😁😍

I really like what you say here! I kinda think there’s room for both to be true at the same time. The excitement of finally learning the truth about a long awaited reveal is so satisfying, but sometimes the mystery of certain loose ends keeps the magic alive. If everything was resolved, then who knows how many people would reread multiple times and if nothing was resolved who knows how many people would bother to reread. 

17 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

I'm 39 and I have to Google stuff like that all the time.

Example: I was today years old when I learned what AITA means. 🙂 

 

(I am very happy with modern internet search engines. How lost I would be without them...)

OT: I have yet to encounter a name from WoT. Haven't even seen a Dutch version.

Thank you for giving me another thing to google! I will admit it took me some time to stop asking people what things meant before I realized that is irritating to people because the internet exists!

On 4/1/2023 at 5:06 AM, Gypsum said:

Not quite sure what you're asking, but if you read old threads on this forum and elsewhere, you'll see that plenty of people who loved the books acknowledge that they had their flaws. 90% of The Crossroads of Twilight (most of that 90% was characters having meetings...no one likes meetings). Letting the narrative get bogged down in overwrought descriptions (do we need to know about every stitch, type of fabric, and neckline on every dress or coat even the most minor character wears? No, we do not). Repetitive language (pick up a thesaurus next time you want to write "stout Two Rivers woollens"). Plot diversions that went on way longer than they should have done (Faile kidnapping). Jordan's fixation on men and women not understanding one another and gender being the primary reason for such misunderstandings (would work as a quirk of some characters, but everyone, from every culture in Randland? Why?).

 

It's a testament to the strength of Jordan's writing that despite these issues, the books are so popular and readable and have so many devoted fans. That said, on my reread, I speed read every paragraph that overdoes description on things that don't matter, like the exact layout of a pub or people's clothes.

Thank you so much for your perspective. You picked up on what I was essentially asking. As a relative newcomer to the series and a complete beginner to the forum, I’m extremely curious about how earlier fans experienced and interpreted WOT. I admit I am taking the lazy approach by asking questions via short cut rather than searching the archives, but I’ve had some trouble finding what I searched for. I appreciate your reply!

On 4/1/2023 at 4:18 AM, wotfan4472 said:

Yes. There were equal discussions over the Brandon books vs the Robert books.

 

A number of readers disliked Brandon's writing in equal measure to what the show did.

 

Robert Jordan had the clear ability to place you in the moments of the story, which is why the descriptive writing was seen as either a really good thing, or an off putting one depending on whom you ask.

 

Brandon Sanderson, by comparison, showed a vast difference in writing. This meant that many situations, and characters were off when reading straight from a Robert Jordan book, and the most important comparison, is reading Knife Of Dreams, back to back with The Gathering Storm. Those two books shows a vast difference in how the story is told. 

 

What the show is doing is off putting to many, because the mediums are different. It is still telling the story, just using characters in different events to build what is happening, and building what is to come. Kerene and Stepin interacting with Logain is a direct case to this difference even being needed. You can even include Owain in this as well. Thom's nephew.

 

They were all chosen and revealed for a specific purpose, and it is because their fates would affect key characters at very important and vital moments in the story they are telling, and also world building in showing the cost of becoming an Aes Sedai, or a male channeller even using their abilities.

 

The stakes are high in the story, and they are only going to get higher as each season is done, and more dangers are revealed.

Thank you for your post and for providing me with some perspective from a long term reader 

19 hours ago, Kalessin said:

For what very, very little it's worth, I had a bottle of Perrin the other day. (Pear Cider - very refreshing.)

 

I don't happen to have a child or a fur baby; but I suspect if I did, my (currently nonexistent) partner would not be impressed at the idea of naming a child after a character in a fantasy tale. Thinking of some past prospective partners, I expect they would be more interested in commemorating grandparents or friends than characters in novels. So far I've managed to name cats Doof (Food backwards: she was a foodaholic) and Catty-Puss (very discriminating, with sharp claws and no hesitation about using them. 🙂 ), but never Aviendha or Egwene or the like. 🙂

I enjoyed your post!  And your cat names! I always seem to choose way too human cat names, nothing fantasy at all, for example one was mrs miller and another was Gary. I did inherit my sister’s cats named Minerva and albus, but ended up unintentionally being a d**k and turning their god given legit fantasy characters names into boring minnie and albie. 

18 hours ago, Kalessin said:

It's the same crowd who try later to mug Mat, posing as beggars without having the proper brass rings to identify them as legitimate beggars. Nominal head the Whitecloak ambassador; so, not Elaida's crowd.

Ooohhh ok thank you for clarifying. The kidnap attempts tripped me up since I thought that’s elaidas jam. I just read that part today where the “guild” of beggars attack Mat and crew, and one of them says “old cully won’t like this” or something like that. I recognized that name from the recent “kind of a big deal” white cloak character perspective as a high level dark friend but still didn’t quite put it together. Especially didn’t know that it was the same perp that tried to get the girls. Good to know.
 

Side note, I never caught in my first read through all of the clues leading up to the eventual reveal of a certain in world beloved and famous autobiographer whose adventures have already filled an entire book! I’m starting to think, only partially through my first reread, that the amount of detail discovered and dependent on rereading, that I may never read a new book again…just might spend the rest of my life immersed in reading and rereading WOT! 😂 I digress, but thanks again for clarifying 

On 4/1/2023 at 1:53 AM, DojoToad said:

Life is rarely so nice and neat. I don’t expect my books to tie off everything with a beautiful bow. Loose ends seem more real. And leaves room for debate - what happened next?  

You raise a very insightful observation…whether it’s “real life” or WOT or whatever, the true excitement and adventure of my experience is typically, and forgive the cliche, the journey not the destination. Once I “know” something is final, I tend to lose interest as it becomes almost boring to me if it has no where else to go or grow from there. I fully admit the paradox or hypocrisy in my original statement, expressing the usual tendency is towards basic nature to seek security and want clear answers defined externally. I realize now that once they are established they tend to lose their intrigue/magic. This means the mystery itself is more real and provides a vastly more significant impact to the experience, partially due to the opportunity to co create and imagine possibilities without limits. I tend to ramble but my point is thanks for your wise words and their affect on helping me to realize that!

We have plenty of understandable reasons why the book fans, politely expressed, “dislike” the TV show. As someone who is new to the community and forums, this makes me wonder if there are or were the same criticisms from the fandom about the books. Anything the fandom is critical of about the books? I realize there are members of the fandom who separate bs from rj….so I guess I really want to know if any of you guys have things about the story rj told that you were critical of?

On 3/30/2023 at 8:26 PM, Sabio said:

I don't remember but I think his first appearance was Moghi meeting him after being freed.  I assumed it was Ishy.  Whoever it was had been given a lot of power and authority by the DO.  It just seemed odd to me that would happen with a totally new person.  Ishy was the DO's go to person.

Ok sounds like you were initially pretty sure from that scene who he was. I commend you! I didn’t catch it first time around. Do you remember your original thoughts about “the watcher” after the scene with Savannah and shaido with disguised Sammy and grendy? Or if you had any idea who that was?

On 3/30/2023 at 7:24 AM, DojoToad said:

I started reading in 1992 (I believe) and there is still stuff I haven't caught on to.  🤔

I recently heard on a podcast I listen to that there are some things that NEVER get cleared up! WHAT?!? I guess that’s what we love about the series, but damn if I didn’t hope that everything has an answer 

On 3/30/2023 at 10:25 AM, KakitaOCU said:

Guess just depends on the culture make up you get exposed to.  Zarine or Zareen is a fairly normal name from Persian backgrounds, so you don't see it much in like an Irish or French family, but it does show up more the further east you get.  🙂

Very good point…thanks for expanding my awareness 😊

20 hours ago, DojoToad said:

???  Did you read the Companion?

I replied to another post already but I think it was actually the scene with sevanna and crew after meeting with sammael and graendal in disguise and then we got the perspective change from “the watcher”? You old school fans have way more insight than I do though, I could be wrong. I love hearing from you all!

On 3/30/2023 at 6:42 AM, Elgee said:

It was so long ago .... LoL ... I think we OG were very lucky in this way. It was so much fun to theorise and then see where we were right or wrong!

I don't think I knew who Moridin was when he first appeared ... that was the scene in Shadar Logoth, right?

Honestly can't remember when I caught on. Bearing in mind that I've read some of the older books more than 30 times - things blur 🙂

I love hearing the perspectives of the old school fan community! Ok so I could be wrong, but I think the actual first introduction is the “watcher” in the chapter where sammael and graendal pose as different identities to the Savannah shaido crew, and then readers are introduced to a perspective from the “watcher” including references to the true power, saa in the eyes, etc. 

On 3/27/2023 at 5:25 PM, christianrapper said:

For Aes sedai to hunt her they would have to know that she is alive. They already think that she is dead. Very few Aes Sedai even knew that the forsaken even returned from the dead. 

I wonder how aes sedai missed the major incentive of the forsaken which was immortality. You’d think they would be more prepared/aware of the likelihood that they would not be “dead”.

I’m curious in so many ways how the OG fans who had to wait for books experienced the series. I read them all back to back and am now rereading and catching so much that I missed, but I never have had time to theorize and contemplate because I was able to devour without pause. I just reread the part in ACOS about the watcher and the introduction of moridin and it made me wonder if the OG fans knew who he was right away or if the reveal was a surprise? Additionally , was the OC community surprised by anything that played out or did you all hypothesize and theorize most of the major plot points?