On 2/7/2022 at 4:44 PM, AdamA said:

I wouldn't have expected to see the insect helmets yet. Not confident we will at all, really, but it's usually not a great idea to wear armor on a ship.

Tell that to Victarion Greyjoy.

4 hours ago, Andra said:

It irritates me, because it's a change that Rafe apparently made for no reason except to show that he could.

It annoyed me too, more so since the name change removes one of the links that connect the world in space and time, that is that Emond's Field = the field where fell King Aemon of Manetheren, whence the name.

Edit: The writers refer to Emond's Field in interviews though, so the change is probably less due to Rafe and more to Amazon producers dumbing things down. Or someone will use the name in later seasons. Who knows.

9 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

Sorry not following. Why is the possibility it would be a male Dragon not enough of a reason?

 

Besides the fact that they didn't know what it was for when they made it, as others have said. 

It is not a fact. In fact, it is the opposite - they knew what, or who, they made it for:

Quote

The Shadow Rising, chapter 26, The Dedicated

 

[Jonai] shivered, wondering if men would ever stand in a meeting such as this again. When he saw what was on the table, the shiver became a shudder. A crystal sword - perhaps an object of the Power, perhaps only an ornament; he had no way of telling - held down the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, spread out like a tablecloth and spilling onto the floor. His heart clenched. What was that doing here? Why had it not been destroyed, and memory of the cursed man as well?
  “What good is your Foretelling,” Oselle was almost shouting, “if you cannot tell us when?” Her long black hair swayed as she shook with anger. “The world rests on this! The future! The Wheel itself?”
 

[...]

 

  “Can we trust Kodam and his fellows, Solinda?”
  “We must, Oselle. They are young and inexperienced, but barely touched by the taint, and ... And we have no choice.”
  “Then we will do what we must. The sword must wait. Someshta, we have a task for the last of the Nym, if you will do it. We have asked too much of you; now we must ask more.”

3 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Thanks for finding the prophecy I meant; and while I know the show is dropping them left and right, I am kind of sympathetic to their situation.

 

Prophecy and foretelling does a lot to the world, but until they know exactly which ones they'll be able to include, and which ones have to be cut for production reasons, they have to be very careful about including them.  I point to how upset the book fans were over the poor execution over the one for Alivia, or the GoT blowback from Cersei's (which I actually figured out beforehand) to know a showrunner needs to be very careful including a prophecy if they're not sure they can deliver a proper pay off.

Yeah, that is reasonable. And as you say, there is a lot of prophecy, and it would probably be impossible to make room for all of it, even if the uncertainty you pointed out wasn't there. And perhaps it is not that easy to write the scenes to bring it out without it coming off as stilted.

6 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

  Reveal hidden contents

okay so it's a foretelling not a vision. I always thought those were more open to interpreation and more vague than Min's visions. I mean I can see there has been some discussion that this might not even refer to Rand. In any case it doesn't really seem like this is particularly important to the end of WoT, and I wouldn't lay high odds on Nicola even appearing in the show let alone this prophesy coming up. I meant if you are a showrunner what is the point of introducing a prophesy in season 3 or 4 that is never ever paid off? It's not even paid off if the series was a 1 to 1 recreation.  

 

Yes, sadly the role of prophecy will likely be (and already is) diminished. Sadly, because it added a lot of weight to the series, didn't it?

27 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

Can't see anything about a boat. I see one about a pyre and one about him marrying but no boats. TBH I think both of those could be done posthumously if needed.

Quote

Lord of Chaos, chapter 14

 

Foretelling, by Nicola:

 

Suddenly Nicola spoke, sounding half-asleep. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

Also, from Jordan's notes (viewed by Terez, I think), one of Rand's questions to the Aelfinn (with answer) was:

Quote

Jordan's notes:

 

Rand: "How can I fulfill the Prophecies of the Dragon and survive?"
Answer: "The west and the south must be as one; the north and the east must be as one. Two cannot be one; you must stand against the two as one. If you would live, you must die."

Which is in Rand's thoughts in

Quote

Lord of Chaos, chapter 26

 

[Rand] knew he had a chance to live, if a seemingly impossible one. If you would  live, you must die; that was one of three things he knew must be true, told to him  inside a ter’angreal where the answers were always true if apparently never easy to understand.

Picked up again in

Quote

Knife of Dreams, chapter 18

 

"One of my questions for the Aelfinn was 'How can I win the Last Battle?'"
  "A dangerous question to pose." [Cadsuane] said quietly, "touching on the Shadow as it does. Supposedly, the results can be quite unpleasant. What was the answer?"
  "'The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one.'" He blew a smoke ring, put another in the middle of it as it expanded. That was not the whole of it. He had asked how to win and survive. The last part of his answer had been 'To live, you must die.'

52 minutes ago, Andra said:

No, I can definitely see your point.

It's one of those issues that book fans will probably debate for years to come.  I've personally come down on either side of the debate myself ever since the end of Great Hunt.

 

It's actually a completely moot point, unless someone gets approval to write additional stories and have them be considered canon.  Since the only times in the books that it comes up, the Dragon and the Banner are both present.

Quote

S1E8

[Uno] The Horn of bloody Valere, lad.

[Yakota] To be blown at the Last Battle. To call the Pattern's greatest heroes to stand at our side.

[Perrin] Well, then let's hurry up and get it.

[Yakota] We're not going to use it. It's for the Dragon. Without it, they won't stand a chance.

Maybe some old Shienaran lord found the horn and tried to blow it during some trolloc attack, only to get told off by Hawkwing because the Dragon wasn't there, thought to himself "that sucks" and buried it under the throne. Show headcanon (and it explains why they didn't try to use it, too!)?

12 minutes ago, Andra said:

But making them all the same is precisely the kind of thing Rafe might do.

And it wouldn't be all that surprising if the Cleansing ends up being completely different as it is.  If it even happens.

 

Remember that after an entire season, we still don't have a clear statement in the show that saidin and saidar are different things.

Right, I forgot - there is only the True Power, which the darkfriend Tar Valon witches can channel without going mad because they are protected by the Dark One, quite like the male forsaken are in the books, when channeling Saidin.

It is starting to make sense. The Dark One was always the source of the Power channeled during the Age of Legends, and the curse on male channelers is the sin of Lews Therin, who in his hubris sought to challenge him, inherited through time.

(I realize that the above two paragraphs are thematically inconsistent, but no matter.)

2 minutes ago, Andra said:

No, I can definitely see your point.

It's one of those issues that book fans will probably debate for years to come.  I've personally come down on either side of the debate myself ever since the end of Great Hunt.

 

It's actually a completely moot point, unless someone gets approval to write additional stories and have them be considered canon.  Since the only times in the books that it comes up, the Dragon and the Banner are both present.

Fair enough! :)

14 minutes ago, Andra said:

But if your interpretation is correct, it means that the Eye has three things that link to the DR, not just two and a half.  It's still one of the things in the Eye that he needs.

Yes, I agree. To me it seems obvious that the Eye was made in preparation for the Need of the Pattern, the instrument of which is it's greatest ta'veren, viz. the Dragon.

9 minutes ago, Andra said:

Actually, that's not quite what they say.

They say that - if the Dragon is there - they must fight for him.

But if the Horn is sounded in some circumstance where the Dragon isn't involved, they can fight for them.  As long as it doesn't mean fighting for the Shadow.

 

Because they can tell that fighting for Mat means fighting for the Dragon in MOL, they can do it.

 

At least that's the implication from other details related in the books.

We know that at least one of those things (that they would fight for either side, whichever sounded the Horn) is wrong.  But it still looks like they only have to follow the Banner and the Dragon if they're actually present.

Disagree, though I suppose it is logically possible.

At least I read "We can fight for you because of [the Dragon banner], Gambler, and because the Dragon leads you—though he does it from afar. It is enough." as saying that the banner and the Dragon leading are necessary requirements for their taking part in a battle. To me, it would be an odd thing to say if the Dragon was not necessary (and just precluded their fighting for someone else if he was present). "It is enough" I take to mean that the banner and the Dragon leading means that the requirements for their fighting have been fulfilled, without which they would not have taken part.

Moreover, what would be the point of Hawkwing noting "You are here. The banner is here" at Falme if the heroes could have fought anyway?

44 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

It might even be that the darkness of Shadar Logath and the Taint are the same. Multiple evils is a cool idea in the books, but can be confusing at times.

If so, the cleansing of Saidin would have to be very different.

Also, evil arising out of excessively attempting to eradicate evil isn't that confusing, is it? One might even see it as one of Jordan's themes taken to the extreme.

5 hours ago, Andra said:

I call the Horn only half a link, because though it's only used in the books to aid him, according to the lore it could be used by someone else.

Quote

The Great Hunt, chapter 47

 

“The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,” Artur Hawkwing said. “You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.” Hurin made a faint sound as if his throat had seized.

 

A Memory of Light, chapter 39

 

Hawkwing nodded toward something nearby. Rand’s banner; Dannil still held it aloft. “We arrive here to gather at the banner. We can fight for you because of it, Gambler, and because the Dragon leads you—though he does it from afar. It is enough.”

 

A Memory of Light, chapter 45

 

Panicked, Mat looked about. “The banner! I dropped the bloody banner!” Olver smiled, looking up at the sign made by the swirling clouds. “It will be fine—we’re beneath his banner already,” he said, then lifted the Horn and blew a beautiful note.

Technically, someone else could blow it, but according to Hawkwing, the Heroes would not fight for anyone but the Dragon, though of course the characters believe they would fight for whoever blows the horn.

On 1/22/2022 at 7:40 AM, EmreY said:

 

As previously stated, on the one hand the saidin/saidar difference has been established, but only weakly, and as you say in places where there was the opportunity to underscore the difference, it has been ignored.  So I'm closer to your understanding.

 

It could very well work out like a "curse on men's channelling" rather than "men corrupt the Power"; a slight difference in emphasis.

 

 

I just realized something. Maybe there aren't any two halves of the One Power because it isn't the One Power, but rather the True Power that they are channeling, and all Aes Sedai are darkfriends. #the_children_were_right

18 minutes ago, Skipp said:

It is very possible that we won't get an answer to this or the other questions you raised.  But is that an issue for all of them?

An issue for some viewers, perhaps, but not for all (or even most?). Personally, I have difficulties enjoying a scene if it seems to me (which is not to say that it is objectively the case) to be "manufactured" to effect emotion or spectacle with little regard to (or even if it only plays loosely with) consistency and context (and especially character integrity, though that may not be the case with this scene in particular).

Interestingly, a friend told me that if a show is able to establish characters, about whose fates it makes her care, she explicitly is able to forgive it [the show] such loose play, not being bothered by it despite seeing it and acknowledging it - whereas I find myself less able to appreciate the characters if they behave inconsistently, or seem to be forced to act as the plot or scene needs them to. I suppose this makes them feel less real to me, while to her their realities are strong enough to hold the rest of the show together.

21 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I personally believe that this scene is a combination of the two.

I find it most likely that they wanted to establish Valda as threatening and dangerous, and that the scene was a convenient way for them to do so. Beyond this, I don't think they have given us any reason to believe that they have (or even thought necessary) a consistent framework that reasonably grounds the situation or the actions of the involved characters.

As such, there will likely never be an explanation. Just as there likely never will be explanations for the geographical difficulties that @Andra has pointed out in another thread, or what tell Moiraine happened to have, or why the Seanchans decided to bounce a tsunami against a cliff and girl, et cetera.

Cf. the discussion by @king of nowhere and @AdamA in https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/110544-interviews-and-news-articles/?do=findComment&comment=4017831 .

23 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Umm I am not really sure that this position is true.  As I understand it Balefire rewinds time so that whatever was destroyed had no effect on the time line for a period of time depending on the strength of the balefire.  When Rand blasted Rahvin, Ravhin's destruction of the posse never happened, ergo the link with the horn was not severed because Matt never died.   Unless I missed something in some secret archive ?

Quote

A Memory of Light, chapter 39

 “I did die,” Mat said, rubbing at the scar on his neck. “Apparently that tree claimed me.”
 “Not the tree, Gambler,” Hawkwing said. “Another moment, one that you cannot remember. It is fitting, as Lews Therin did save your life both times.”

Pretty clearly implied to be Caemlyn, though it could be that Jordan intended otherwise. Possibly the link to the Horn is metaphysical, and not part of the pattern that is recreated with the effects of Balefire.

1 hour ago, EmreY said:

I thought it was a few days, and then correspondence learning as needed?  (I might well be wrong.)

Day 89, Amadaine 13, Jun 20 - Arriving at Tar Valon (TGH 18)
Day 184, Choren 23, Sep 23 - Leaving Tar Valon with Liandrin (TGH 39)

Day 381, Aine 24, Apr 08 - Arriving at Tar Valon (TDR 10-11)
Day 384, Aine 27, Apr 11 - Leaving Tar Valon for Tear (TDR 37)
 

So 96 days + 4 days.

Source: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/998_NE, https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/999_NE

12 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

I agree that the CGI burnout effect was confusing, but referencing the screencaps below, it appears like there is a visual distinction between someone who is burnt out and beyond aid:

(eyes and lips blackened)

 

 

 ...and someone who is almost burnt out: (This is milliseconds before Amalisa breaks the circle)

(burns on her face, but her eyes and lips are intact)

 

Is this very clear visually? In my opinion, no, it is not. But I do think it was an intentional decision to show a difference in damage between Amalisa and Nynaeve to subtly justify Egwene healing, not resurrecting, Nynaeve.

 

I also expect this moment will be revisited in season 2.

Eh, her lips and eyes aren't really intact when Egwene is cradling her non-breathing body, begging her to "come back".

37 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Super interesting, thanks for the response. I can see where you're coming from on that worry, and hadn't really considered it in this way. I think what I liked about it and how I think it might (hopefully) elevate Veins of Gold, is that a realisation informed by his fathers' words feels much more personal in some way. 

 

If we can imagine a perfect production from here on out (I know, just stick with me), and we see Rand's descent and becoming iron and cold and losing his mind etc. And seeing LTTs madness and the Breaking and the prologue from the books. All of that horribleness but the moments of light as well that have you really rooting for Rand. I just think Veins of Gold would be so powerful if he leans on words his father, his true father, had said to him before the journey ever began. 

 

Full disclosure, I'm a bit of a sucker for father-son relationships on film and television. So while I totally get what you're saying and especially in terms of Rand & LTT merging, having broken the world before and on the verge again - on a personal note I think there could be something really powerful about Rand's relationship and love for his father being core to Veins of Gold, calling back to the very first episode. I think/hope that Tam's words will play a part in the realisation, an important part, but something that sort of adds to the whole mixture of things you describe, and that Tam's words add a personal touch to it that will (hopefully) resonate even more for a television audience. 

 

But it will be quite delicate I think and could easily be diminished in the way you've said, I hadn't thought of it in that way, thanks again for sharing.

Thank you, that was a very nice explanation! Your post has made me feel somewhat more positive! :)

8 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Stictly speaking I believe there is an exemple in the books of someone being healed without touch.

Maybe this?

Quote

CoS, chapter 36

 

Flinn traced his finger along the puffy gash in Rand's side and across the old scar. That did seem more tender. "These are alike, but different, as if there's two kinds of infection at work. Only it isn't infection; it's ... darkness. I can't think of a better word."

 

"I hope nobody minds if I talk," he said, beginning to move callused hands above Rand's side. "Talking seems to help a mite." He squinted, focusing on the injuries, and his fingers writhed 'slowly. Very much as though he was weaving threads, Min realized.

Not touch, no, but close proximity and a focus on the particular injuries.

6 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Healing doesn't require touch in the show, that's already been established.  If you don't like that change, that's fair, but it's not out of nowhere.

Meh, it's an indication that they let what is possible be defined by what some cool scene that someone wants to write requires, rather than writing scenes that fit an established framework.

Sadly not uncommon in television, but also arguably one of the things that diminished the later seasons of GoT (not to speak of season 8), though (at least to me) it is much worse when it is done to characters.

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I loved Tam explaining the Wheel to Rand in episode 1. I think if we are lucky enough to see the show all the way to the end, this speech will be key for Rand & the Veins of Gold. That sort of scene says to me they are really taking a long view to things and gives me faith that they understand the thrust of the story, even if we don't like some (or all) of the changes so far. 

I see your point, and callbacks can be very nice.

Sadly, I felt the opposite, that it (and what Logain said that his voices had told him) might instead cheapen the upcoming Veins of Gold. Rand, instead of rising from all the trauma (both personal and that of LTT), coming, because of his character and experience, to that realization, may now instead recall something his father said. And even if he doesn't, the audience might.

It might, if you will, turn into a learned recollection, that Tam was right, rather than a personal realization because of his experience and character.

And it's hardly as significant, or momentous, when it is stated as a matter of fact by Tam, a farmer turned solider turned blademaster turned farmer (not to diminish him at all), as when it an idea searched after in crisis, by someone who has broken the world once, killing his entire family, shouldered incredible responsibility to the point of going insane, who is actually going insane, and who is at the point of despair and on the precipice of breaking the world again.

But we shall see.

Edit: again sadly, I don't feel they understand this aspect of the story - or rather they might understand it as someone watching a fish swim through an ocean might, but not as someone who has actually swum.

Edit again: or more to the point, as someone who has heard someone tell of a great realization - and who thinks that the words of this telling is the important thing, and not the actual realization.

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

For book readers, it is really not necessary at all.  But remember that people who have no idea of what the bond breaking may cause may end up viewing two different scenes 5-7 years or so apart.  It needs to be driven home very very hard.

Eh, then do it closer to the Last Battle? Lan after Moiraine disappears into the doorway. Or what about, to remind everyone, during the actual Battle. Egwene (though it is the other direction) after Gawyn gets killed by Demandred. Or Gareth Bryne going berserk after Siuan dies (though this may be changed). No matter what, if they want to keep Alanna-Rand-Death-by-Moridin, they will make sure to remind viewers in some way.

And it's not as if Alanna's capture brings much tension in the books (though who knows what Jordan might have done). Rand is chill about it (though he might not think of the bond-berserk-possibility) in Towers of Midnight, and doesn't even notice her at first in Shayol Ghul (Nyn. is the one reacting to her).

Quote

ToM, chapter 13

 

Finally [Min] exhaled, reluctantly pulling back. "Rand, Alanna is gone. She vanished earlier today."
"Yes. I felt her go. Northward somewhere. The Borderlands, perhaps Arafel."
"She could be used against you, to find where you are."
He smiled. Light, but it felt good to see that expression on his face again! "The Shadow does not need her to find me, Min, nor will it ever again. All its eyes are fixed directly upon me, and will be until I blind them."
"What? But Rand—"
'It's all right, Min. The time when it could silence me quietly—and therefore win—has passed. The confrontation is assured and the scream that begins the avalanche has been sounded."

And at the actual event, it turns into a complete non-issue, as Alanna can (and does) release the bond of her own volition, which she could have done at any time.

Quote

MoL, chapter 46

 

“I can…” Alanna said. “I can release him…”

  The light faded from her eyes.

  Nynaeve looked at Moridin and Rand. Rand glanced at the dead woman with pity and sorrow, but Nynaeve saw no rage in his eyes. Alanna had released the bond before Rand could feel the effects of her death.

Who knows if they will even keep it. It is hardly the most important thing going on at Shayol Ghul (or elsewhere at that time).

Regardless, I think it more likely that Stepin's reaction was something they "wanted to explore", because they thought it would make good television, rather than any necessary setup for something in 7 seasons.

31 minutes ago, Deviations said:

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

I want Jim Carrey to play someone but who, I haven't decided yet.  Maybe Moridin.

Asmodean.

Weiramon! ;D