13 hours ago, itsjodie said:

To be fair, that’s basically the note we leave on at the end of EoTW. Rand is confident that he has just killed the Lord of the Dark (just like after Falme) and Moiraine has to explain to him that it was just a Forsaken.

Also helps to build up the power of the actual DO if a Forsaken is scary enough that we think one is the DO.

 It is how we end EoTW, but EoTW starts with the LTT/Ishy prologue that sets up the fact that one of fhe Forskaen is not bound and is tormenting LTT by granting him lucidity. It puts the breadcrumbs in place at least. 

The deeper into madness a man falls the more powerful becomes. Attempting to shield any man causes the taint to siphon into you, causing women to become corrupted as well if they attempt to shield. Once learned all combat is essence a fight to the death because attempting to take them alive simply creates more problems. 
 

The Ogier are hostile and use their treesinging to navigate the Ways and direct Black Wind at their enemies.

the Whitecloaks are substanially more powerful and universally…not respected but required. They bind their snowy white cloaks with terangreal that cause weaves to dissolve ala Matt’s amulet. 
 

anyone who inadvertently Dreams can end up in the Finn Realm and be taken captive

The Forsaken are immeasurably more powerful than any mortal channelers due to their connection to the Dark One. Only infighting amongst themselves allows for the world to function. 
 

The Wolves in the Dream World are angry. They prowl seeking the souls shadowspawn and will emerge to stalk Trollocs then vanish back into Telarnrhiod. 
 

surviving a wound from a Trolloc or Fade weapon simply transforms the survivor into a trolloc themself. 
 

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

Siaun, the apparent Dreamer who has secret lesbian trysts with a Moiraine that she pretends to be enemies with and who - since all Aes Sedai seem to be clueless - also knows nothing about prophesy?  Yup, nailed her…

 

I will grant you Uno and Loial as they were two that came to mind as well, though they were incredibly underused.

Don’t get me wrong they are not using the character efficiently, the bond between the two is exaggerated for the show, but the feigned animosity fits their characterization. They absolutely had hidden agendas and maintained split facade in public.  The actress and her presence feels right for Siuan. She felt regal and in command. Metaphorically speaking if I imagined Siuan as a hammer they gave me a hammer on screen. They may be using said hammer as a screwdriver but it’s still a hammer. 

Siuan, Loial and Uno 

3 characters right 

I now officially feel like the meme where the spouse storms back into the room and shouts "And another thing!"

Can't shake the aggravation and confusion the finale wrought upon me. My spouse is not a show watcher or a book reader so its falls to the forums...

This was a season finale...this is what you are leaving your audience to sit on for a year. You need  a payoff that justifies waiting 1 to 2 years to pick back up, or a set up that leaves people anxious to pick back up for another 1 to 2 years.

There were several "moments" in the finale.

Perrin finally gets into the same room as Padan Fain who has been sir appearing in the shadows for the whole season. He basically mugs for the camera and says they were manipulated, and he intentionally visited the two rivers each year expressly on orders from his lord. Several narrative problems or storytelling problems inherent here. First, we have gotten like 3 lines of dialogue the entire season from him. He slipped away from Winterfest massacre like he knew it was coming which is alluded to in the finale. When Perrin finds him it is confusion over what the heck is happening none of the cast saw him slip away during the attack, Perrin caught a glimpse of him once or twice but otherwise had no interaction, Matt bought the lanterns and got slighted in his attempts to profit from thieving, but that is it. This character who has randomly been trailing the group and seems to have orchestrated events in the background has virtually no context or interaction. Compare this to Horn Rim Glasses during Season 1 of Heroes. The mysterious man who we know virtually nothing about but seems to hound the characters from the background and then BAM! he is the cheerleaders father. I understand Fain as a bookreader, but as a show watcher the reveal of Fain in the Fal Dara keep feels flat. It was jilting especially because Perrin just walks in to see the soldiers down and Loial getting stabbed. He did nothing and attempted nothing. And in the context of the show I dont blame him. He barely knew Loial, had met the Shienarians like the day before and walked into a room where the Amazon Delivery Guy has several muder wraiths shanking random foreign soldiers while digging a box from under the floor. Confusion is his state as is the state of me watching the show. I am putting a lot of this from the context of a friend who is a non reader and his reactions.

The not yet novice girls form a link with Amalisa to set themselves up as the last line of the last line of defense against the Trollocs. The way that keep fortress was set up I feel like 500 soldiers could have held off the trollocs for like a week...but whatever. They break through and are going to destroy Fal Dara then ravage the borderlands unchecked. A hail mary channel bomb is fitting in this scenario. Only the control of that channel bomb is put into the hands of a character with five minutes of screen time, which reduces the characters we have spent time with to playing batterys for the tertiary character and then trying to not die.  I really dug Nynaeve in essence shielding Egwene from the backlash, that is fitting and heroic that is a season finale type moment. The concept that you literally burn out from over use is a good translation to the screen and I enjoyed that element. But this is a finale and your chance to make people WANT more. This really needed to be Rand. We needed to see what the Dragon is capable of. We already saw Nynaeve tank the Black Wind and Mass Heal. This really should have been Rand's moment.

Which brings me to "The Eye". Groan. Every fiber of my being believed the The Eye was not actually the prison site but a trap to lure Rand to Ishamael so they could corrupt the purpose of the cache left for the Dragon. Or that upon arrival Moiraine would realize she was wrong and it was not the prison. As a show watcher I left this scene with no clue as to what happened. No explanation or description to lean that figure who goaded Rand and did something unknown to Moiraine as either the Dark One or Ishamael or a different Forsaken for that matter. No Rand slipping and calling him by his pre-forsaken name, no proclamation that he was Baalzamon. He was just some guy who apparently taught Rand to channel (in a description to close to the way in which Saidar is accessed) and then got hit with a bright light. It almost looked like the Saangreal dissolved, not explained or even mentioned. Rand then asks for the Mark Twain moment I was expecting like 7 seasons from now and decides to go wander the earth. The woman who just held a knife to his throat in a gambit to prevent him from turning to the Dark and marched off to the Eye with the full expectation it would kill her LETS HIM GO. Offers not a word of resistance or even suggests that maybe he needs to stick around in case more needs to be done. Which even if she were mostly certain you would error on the side of caution. It is then immediately revealed when Lan shows up (those damn tracking tells) that she is filled with doubt and fears this is just the beginning. Every aspect of this falls flat, and felt disjointed. It didnt feel like a season finale, it felt like a rough first draft.

Finally...The Seanchan. I have echoed this sentiment recently and with gusto. SOOOO much of what the show got right made what it got wrong so much more disgusting. The Seanchan look fantastic and alien. They are scary and intimidating and feel completely alien to what we have seen. That is good. They tsunami a vacant beach. I understand this conveys their unified might and capability, it is meant as a tease to their power and the threat they pose. It was not meant to establish them just tease them. They chose the absolute worst possible vehicle to tease them. This was laughably stupid. This is the debut of the Shockmaster in WCW (worth a google if not familiar) awful. Budget concerns are a factor in any effects driven production. Why they felt like blowing a sizeable chunk on such a throwaway moment is beyond me. There are so many ways they could have done this better without even altering the effects or including more elements.

Quick preface to my reaction…

I started WoT when I picked up Dragon Reborn once it hit paperback, and I got 200 pages in and was completely lost. Tracked down Eye of the world, tore all the way through rand getting callandor at end of DR and was overjoyed at the three books (reading in order extremely important). Then began the wait between books. Always got the newest book day of release and finished within two days. Huge fan of the series and had posted through dragonmount and theoryland years ago. Have not touched a forum since Memory of Light came out. 
 

Signed back up when show began and entered in with low expectations and low hopes. Watched the first episode and it felt about right, little CW-ish in costuming, but it fit within my framework for how the world should look. Little things gave me glimmers of hope. Egwene going through the river to become part of the women’s circle was almost to the word the training description for a woman touching the source…which was cool. They visually represented that metaphor…

I always try to make the mental adjustment to allot for differences between the books and the show. They can’t be the same. I accept that fact. I also expect that if you are translating a book it’s your responsibility to provide the information I need as a viewer without having read the books. As an example…the black tendrils when a man channels is a good visual representation of the taint. In this regard they seemed to have a grasp for how to translate book elements to the tv medium. Over time the aggravation of not getting information became aggravating. I don’t believe we ever gotten an explanation for Fades or their proper name in the eight episodes. We got one line in episode 8 about not leaving shadows, but no description of why that meant anything. They skimmed the surface for world of dreams but never quantified it or the importance. Upon conclusion of season we got no identification of ishamael being the dream visitor. My friend who never read the books was confused as to whether the show was supposed to run one season only cause it seemed like rand just killed the dark one. 
 

Everything felt rushed and overly edited. Barely got to know Thom at all, let alone get any explanation for why he would sacrifice himself to go at a Fade. Loial felt right in performance but completely rushed for any execution or depth to who he was. We got to know more about Stepin, the darkfriend bartender, and Amilisa then Perrin or Matt. I realize the recasting of Matt threw a wrench into things…

to use an analogy, watching this season felt like being dragged behind a speed boat while water skiing. I could see the quality stuff there just below the surface but we never got deep enough because of the speed we were racing. It got left behind and we managed to go across the whole lake without ever really getting wet. 
 

Episode 8 killed the series for me. It didn’t feel like a season finale at all. Nynaeve got the shining mass heal moment. Moiraine got to tear down a building to kill the Trollocs, rand got to look at a guy and make a bright light. Perrin got to lumber across a tent and make a Frankenstein noise then do nothing. There was no build up or pay off in the finale. Just a tertiary character wiping out an army and then burning herself to a cinder. I had zero emotional involvement or sense of fulfillment watching that scene. Just as I had zero fulfillment or pay off in rand channeling to make a bright light. they created more immersion and tension in the cold open to episode 7 then virtually the rest of the series. 
 

Had they given the mass area of effect attack to Nynaeve or Egwene would had created a slight buy in for me. ESCPECIALLY if Amilisa had coached one of them through what to do. 
 

Amilisa: I’m too weak to control the amount of power we need to use. 
 

Egwene: Moiraine never taught me. 
 

Amilisa: Aes Sedai intentions are impossible to follow, it was her duty to show you the way, I can’t carry this burden for you, but I will show you the way. 
 

then have Egwene lose control and Amilisa seize control to spare Egwene….”you saved my city and my people, it is my honor Egwene” 

same basic outcome but now you are placing responsibility and agency in your leads and allowing the support characters to shine in the process. 
 

Too many deviations, too much rushing, and too many flat moments. 
 

I don’t see it making it past a second season, even if it did I don’t have faith they can execute the critical moments. When I heard they were adapting Game of Thrones I told every person I know that if they got three moments right I would forgive every other thing wrong.

the things I do for love…nailed that moment

jaimie Lannister sends his regards…heartbreaking and awesome 

you are going to fight that thing? I am going to kill that thing….Oberon vs Mountain was everything I prayed for. 
 

I have zero faith in Dumai Wells being done justice. 
 

I have zero faith in Matt dueling the trakand boys

i Doubt they will even touch or attempt to do the Cleansing correct.

Tarwin’s Gap was their first shot at nailing a moment…they missed so wide of the mark i don’t see them hitting the bullseye anywhere else. 
 

I would feel more hopeful if it was worse. They got enough right in terms of cast and look and finding ways to adapt that I think they actually tried. This wasn’t the ashcan dumpster fire that was the Billy Zane buried pilot. They took their shot and it looked like they did the best they could, and it wasn’t nearly enough to make this go the distance. If they failed across the board then there is a chance to make adjustments and change direction. 

In terms of the discussion over how they have altered the dynamics of saidar and saidin…

*They seem to be intentionally murking the waters here to prevent audience from having to learn a lot of rules and lore.

*They seem to be avoiding the need for training and teaching. Those aspects have virtually vanished from the written story. No scenes of Lan drilling the EF5, no scenes of Moiraine or other sisters working with Egwene/Nynaeve. Moiraine intentionally avoiding either attempting to help Rand understand his power, explain she is incapable of assisting him, or showing she actually can assist him. Instead she avoids the topic because it would contribute to his insanity. Intuitive learning seems to be their preferred route. 
 

*There has been painfully little distinction between the different flows, limitations on how it can be used, and now show-canon alterations to the rules of channeling. Linked channelers being forcibly overdrawn and burned out is a tangible and important change. 
 

why does this matter? Anyone who read or watched Death Note would potentially agree that working within the rules established by the Note was a huge part of the appeal. Most readers of the Wheel are endeared to the lore and very detailed dynamics of channeling. The whole power split and gender driven system was intentionally designed to eliminate mumbo jumbo Latin phrases and some hand waving to solve problems. The system designed helped drive the story and added nuance and layer. The show is skipping over those aspects or diluting them either because they lack understanding themselves, lack the confidence in an audience to follow the trail they need to lay down, or simply don’t care about the importance. 
 

22 minutes ago, bryce0110 said:

I think it's an overreaction to say a single scene at the end of the season is enough to kill the show for you. It wasn't that bad of a scene, I liked it well enough.

 

The point of the scene was to showcase a strange new culture approaching from the west. Their entire look was intimidating, they had people on board being completely dehumanized and looking devoid of emotion (That one Damane girl on the left looked completely broken inside.) And then the scene of a tidal wave, with a shot of a little girl standing in front of it, was extremely intimidating.

 

I agree a village on the shore or seeing it from the perspective of some ship captain would have been a lot better, the scene is definitely not perfect, but as it is the scene serves the purpose of showcasing an intimidating army approaching from the west.

I was badly wounded by several scenes, this was for me the coup de grace. Largely because they got so much right. They looked foreign and intimidating and terrifying. Then they threw it away for a completely pointless conclusion. I am struggling to think of an apt parallel. 
 

Spoiler for Game of thrones 

Let’s say this was strictly meant to get people curious and ask what just happened. How will this fit into the story once we do know? Cause I can’t conceive of a singular scenario where do we get more information and them attacked a nearly empty beach enriches the story. They could have completely plagiarized the fleet of ships from Moana landing and it would have made people talk. Also would have made no sense. Had they wiped out a village, washed it away from the face of the earth and planted a flag…that is something you can work with. This was completely pointless. Imagine the writers room…

writer: so we have brainstormed some ideas on setting up the Seanchan and decided we need to highlight just how formidable and dangerous they are. Any ideas?
 

writer 2: maybe show a ship being boarded and have an Aes Sedai on board who gets collared to foreshadow the damane and they pan back to show a massive fleet with hundreds of captive channelers propelling the ships with the one power?
 

writer 3: or we show a fleet approaching the incoming force and then a tidal wave wipes out the defending fleet, the seanchan never even break formation and we see them sail directly through the scant debris without slowing…

writer 4: we could just have them attack an empty beach with the tidal wave, but put a little girl on the beach so there is a witness. 
 

writer 2: how does that help the story…

writer 4: it will make people talk! 
 

director: well I’m sold. 
 

I hope someone can change my mind here, cause as it stands this KILLED show for me. 

The link being powerful tracks in that nyn and egwene are amongst the strongest channelers in tower history, albeit raw. Amilisa was trained but lacked the strength. Her leading that link and it getting away is fine. My aggravation was in altering the rules of linking, and handing the agency of that huge moment to a character with ten minutes of screen time who then died. Rand pulling that moment is a declaration to the shadow and to the borderlands that no matter how dark the hour the light has manifested in the form of the dragon. They took that moment and put on Amilisa a character that needed no build up. We already were told tbe mantheren story, we didn’t need it shown as well. 
 

the more you alter the rules and fabric of the material they less you are able to follow the road. Moiraine didn’t say she was unable to teach rand to channel only that she was unwilling. When Ishy (guessing it was Ishy, could have been the actual Dark One) is guiding Rand his description of men channeling feels too close to how women channel. Linking has changed, women can no longer sense the spark or ability in other women or know with a look the capability of that woman. Shielding takes more effort to maintain than to break through. All these are departures from the rules that define the entire magical system that was painstakingly crafted. 
 

By the end of this episode I felt like my hopes were blindfolded and then thrown off a cliff. Halfway down the blindfold came off and I saw the seanchan tidal wave…and it felt like someone attached acme rocket boosters to an anvil and sent it after me, speeding it up so it arrived to smash me before I hit the ground. That last sequence killed the show for me. Absolutely killed it in a way that no other moment could ever hope to approach. 

Rand will fast forward to meeting the Aiel, he will exit the blight to the Wastes. Callandor will be found at the end of the flashback chieftain declaring device. 
 

Matt in attempting to find the horn will end up in the Finn domain and when he enters the realm of snakes and foxes it will change him…literally to a new actor, and when he emerges he will find Thom alive and the two will rescue nynaeve and Egwene. 
 

We will get a time jump wherein nynaeve and egwene have been training in the tower for some time. Elayne will have met them offscreen and formed a friendship with them. Their increasing ability and loyalty to Moiraine who is MIA will cause liandrian to sell them out to the seanchan. 
 

moiraine and lan will visit Verin to attempt to find a way around her shielding.

Perrin, the ogier and shienarians will go after Fain and the horn. Faile will link up with them and be the one to sound the horn instead of Matt. 
 

season ends with an angrier and edgier rand emerging from the Aiel Wastes with massive army of Aiel and declare himself the dragon reborn. 
 

second season melting pot of three to four books that completely eliminates the tear storyline, eliminates Couladin as false caracarn. Eliminates 90 percent of the lanfear storyline and eliminates asmodean entirely. 
 

all training and teaching will be minimized, occur offscreen, or just be shown as intuitively learned. 

I don’t think Moiraine is playing coy and actually knows. If that is the case she continued to play coy while at her secret lovers hidden love nest. You can’t have her deceive the legit one of two people she trusts completely. She suspects nynaeve is not because of the age otherwise I don’t think she is operating any clearer than the viewer. 
 

Im very aggravated by the exclusions of materials needed as a viewer. Im fine with deviating from the books and remixing elements of the story. But when your juggling requires knowledge of the books to hasp every the screen story make sense it’s infuriating to not include those details. Example…watched the first episode with a non reader friend. Some of his comments

Who is the Ring Wraith looking guy? Villian? (No explanation of fade or their ability)

so Moiraine is the college graduate wizard and these forty women who just chucked the girl in the river are home schooled? How many girls do they kill each year in the river? He thought the whole women’s circle were channelers…cause no context given.

how do the Trollocs know who to take? Cause if it’s teenagers they just killed that dude who fits the age description at the dance? Why did they drag off the Wisdom instead of killing her, cause they don’t seem that smart…

these were all easily fixed problems that were created by diverting from the story. Because rand and tam don’t “see” the fade we don’t get any whispers of what they might do. We don’t get Moiraine explaining the spark and ability to sense a woman knowing if another woman can channel. This is done to allow the nynaeve mass heal and shock the viewer with a surprise. because Moiraine doesn’t get further into the origins and ask about the manner of the EF 5 births we don’t have the foreshadowing of rand being adopted and now we have The Who is the Dragon nonsense. 
 

you can deviate but you need to still the information to us in some other fashion…

I think the majority of criticisms are valid and the majority of positives are valid. What is largely infuriating is that elements are good enough to actually the make the bad that much worse. 
 

Moiraine,Siuan,Thom,Loial,Nynaeve,and to an extent Liandrian (if she is also Elaida mashed in) fit just fine in terms of characters for me and most. The Ogier speaks and it feels like Loial, appearance concerns aside it felt right. 
 

Most other characters are tolerable, albeit short changed on time and material to work with. 
 

The set pieces are good. Winterspring attack, the whitecloak camp, SL, and Tar Valon all work. 
 

If this show were chicken noodle soup, it has a good savory broth, tender chicken, and a great looking serving bowl. 
 

Then inexplicably they are trying this pump fake of who is the dragon. They are rearranging story beats and dedicating screen time to minor soon to be dead of rarely revisited characters. The swearing of the fourth oath scene in particular was like nails on a chalkboard, did no hear moiraine swear to Siuan and not the amrylian seat itself? Did no one hear the fishing terms of endearment during a massive punishment? The sudden departure to go fight the DO at the eye was so awful. The grinwell family being killed by the Fade makes no sense in the context of the show largely because as show viewers we don’t know what a fade is. Too many things glossed over or ignored. 
 

A comparison is The Witcher…never played the games or read a novel and they keep shoving the Law of Surprise down the throat without ever explaining what the hell it was…got to give us info or we don’t understand. 
 

These erratic story beats and sudden dumbing down of characters is like throwing yogurt into the chicken soup, and adding bananas instead of veggies. It don’t fit and makes the whole thing feel worse. You can build a thousand bridges and crap in a single bed, the world will remember you for crapping the bed and not building bridges. Perhaps there is a logical progression and some of this weirdness will get paid off. Til then trying to take it with a grain of salt. 
 

As it stands I don’t see this making it past three seasons. 

Plot holes being labeled is tricky due to sloppy or hasty writing. It’s hard to label something a hole without knowing where they are going. Maybe problematic details is more accurate…

*Book Tam is too weak to walk, and that is the only reason he can’t go with the kids with moiraine and lan. Show Tam gives a head nod and off you go. No reveal of Rand’s adoption etc. which only aids in The Who is The Dragon Carousel. Rand self doubt and questioning is important. 

*The show is making it sound like women can’t sense another women’s potential or strength. This is fairly important throughout. 
 

*no explanation presented for why the shadar logoth dagger was cursed/poisoned or why it’s dangerous, it just is. Understanding the competing evil is critical for one of the single largest events in universe and we got no exposition or detail. 
 

*The plan to chuck teenagers at the dark ones prison ignores all prophecy and markers for the dragon and basically feels like the worst plan imagineable. at least take a hundred or so Aes Sedai with you. Especially if this the Hail Mary get him while he is weak to prevent destruction of the world gambit moiraine just sold it as. 
 

*They introduce a terangreal (presumably) that allows Travelling, or Moiraine has access to Travelling already. I refuse to believe there is a terangreal that allows for Travelling only to a small fishing hut. So either it’s something “programmed” or they have introduced Travelling. Either one is problematic for a number of reasons.  Immediately what comes to mind is why risk the Ways if you can Travel
 

*Valda seemed awfully confident that Egwene could channel, and given women can’t determine this, how did he. 
 

*Perrin carries neither axe or hammer. Those are integral to his development. 
 

*The Eye as the prison is such a drastic departure that I can’t fathom why they are including this. Ishy luring them ok…but either he is luring them to the actual prison…in which case he is inviting kryptonite to Superman’s holding cell, or he is able to access the Eye which is supposed to be immensely safe guarded. Or the Eye is the prison and Ishy ain’t involved, which means we would get some sort of actual confrontation…

I think that given the specter of characters being consolidated and the cuts being made it is highly likely we are going to get a Frankenstein’s monster of events mashed together by the finale. 
 

Here is the shot I’m calling:  

Any chance they are altering the pacing and focus of the show to try and create a Ned stark moment? Basically are they going to potentially off moriaine in season finale and they want to stage her as focal point to amp the shock factor? We have the emotional and trending moment in place with “on your knees”. Could segueway into Ishy echoing that statement before killing her…

I have made a simple mental shift that is allowing to me enjoy this show far more than I first entered with. This is not the wheel of time being adapted. Instead I have chosen to view it as an adaptation of a single chapter from the entire series. We are watching one of the infinite flickers shown when rand lodges them in the portal stones during great hunt and he sees hundreds of his possible lives flash before his eyes. It’s still a wheel of time story but one of the myriad what if’s. I can tolerate things much better through that lens.