Fano'Lan Redux
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Posts posted by Fano'Lan Redux
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Oh, I am also answering from the main thread, because i think i do owe you an answer
Sorry you took it wrong, but you completely misunderstood me.
How can you accuse me of making a false equivalency when I keep writing that the two things are not equivalent? How can you feel that I "belittle your experience" when I directly stated that what you suffered was worse?
But I dare say that this has absolutely everything to do with real world movements. Wasn't the whole point of the #metoo movement to denounce the abuses made by people (generally men) in a position of power blackmailing/pressuring their subordinates into accepting sex? which is exactly what's happening with mat?
Regarding mat being free to leave, I seem to remember scenes of him being captured and brought back by servants, but maybe i remember wrong? It's been a while since my last reread. But even if I remember that detail wrong, mat spent most of his time in the palace either honor-bound to stay by hiw promises to elayne and nynaeve, or recuperating from his wounds in the seanchan assault
I apologize for any mis-interpretation, over-reaction or otherwise harsh words in my initial response(s), will go back to re-read and extend same as necessary
For me, there is such a huge difference in the necessary first steps for victims of these behaviors, it's a challenge to even consider the respective offending acts as part and parcel of a continuum labelled "rape."
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I would say the Sanderson quote was driven by the still underway drive to eliminate, as best possible, all forms of coercion, overt or covert
Currently re-reading Mat's actions, words and thoughts as the scenario progresses. Thank you for continuing the dialogue
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Not all rape requires the victim to be physically and violently assaulted.
Rape is Rape, regardless of the severity.
The idea that Mat wasn't a victim of rape, because Morgrase's rape was "worse", dismisses the fact that he was infact, raped.
If we replaced Mat with Nyneave, there would be no question whether Nyneave was a rape victim.
Classifying Mat's scenario as rape, doesn't dismiss or minimize Morgase's rape.
Example: You got into a horrible accident, and broke your femur. I also got into an accident and broke both my femur and tibia.
Does saying you broke your leg dismiss/minimize my own broken leg?
Firstly, thank you for providing the appropriate disclaimer in the title. Apologies for not thinking to do so myself.
Second, there are drastically different approaches that are undertaken in order to begin a path to healing for victims of violent physical assault and rape compared to the healing undertaken to recover from any other deplorable act used to remove one's capacity to consent.
If you, or anyone else can speak to this issue as an emergency medical provider or mental health professional, or someone who has for some other reason acquired the knowledge and expertise to treat a victim in the imminent aftermath of a violent sexual assault I would be more than willing to follow up on direction to literature that might inform me otherwise.
My life experience compels me to put the victim and their immediate survival first and foremost when confronted with the aftermath of a violent sexual assault. Any delineation between degrees of culpability wrt criminal acts takes a second seat for me
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RJ commented on the scenario when asked about it in a 1996 book signing. Here's the summary of his comments.
The characterization of the situation as rape by Jordan/Harriet and fans certainly didn't originate with Sanderson.
Thank you for providing the link. Some things to point out from my perspective.
First, the text provided is a paraphrase written by an attendant, so I'm not entirely comfortable reading that as a verbatim account. Maybe there's a recording or a transcript, if I find anything, will be sure to share.
In that reporting, as provided, Brian Richie says the following about Jordan's response to a question about the scenario: "a humorous role-reversal thing." That is it. Given the entirety of Mat's character arc, "reversing his role" suggests something drastically different to me than appears to be the case for many. Mat is the character who reflects to himself about only chasing women willing to be chased or there not being a point otherwise. A role-reversal in the scenario under discussion puts Mat in the position of the willingly pursued.
Brian Richie then provides three distinct, though related, points made by Jordan's editor and wife:
- a good discussion of sexual harassment and rape with comic undertones
- liked it because it dealt with very serious issues in a humorous way
- a good way to explain to men/boys what this can be like for women/girls, showing the fear etc.
Again, assuming accuracy in the reporting, a few things concern me. First, if wife and editor actually used the word "rape" to describe the scenario, I would want to inquire as to her understanding of the word and whether she was using it in a clinical/expert manner and if so to substantiate her foundation as an expert to do so.
As is, the reader is left to fill the void as to whether that usage is a familiar/colloquial usage encompassing a wide range of actions or if she is referring to what then would have been a generally accepted usage in a specific field of expertise. The ambiguity allows for a diverse range of interpretations depending on the reader's background and prior exposure.
Wife and editor's second point is contentious to me. Very serious issues? Yes. In a humorous way? Yes. Dealt with? Not sure I can get on board with that conclusion unless the definition is limited to "raised issue/s in order to provoke discussion."
Wife and editor's third point, if true as written by Brian Richie, is very problematic for me but I can allow for some benefit of the doubt given wife and editor's generational exposure to questions of gender identity and "acceptable" male behavior. The implication that men/boys are somehow unable to process the suffering of an other does irk me.
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All in all, taking the above into account does not justify the leap to the quotes I have seen attributed to Sanderson where he definitively categorizes the scenario as "rape." As the chosen author, and therefore purveyor of canon for nearly the entirety of the fandom, his words carry weight.
As an author who came of age during the internet era, he most assuredly was apprised of any discussions taking place at the time so he made the conscious effort to make a specific conclusion and foist upon fandom that conclusion: Jordan wrote Tylin as role-reversed, rapist Mat
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Didn't take long and am not surprised to discover it was Sanderson putting it out there like gospel and everyone shrugged
Happily missed it then, sorry to remind folks about it now, disappointed to realize that's how Jordan's work is now portrayed
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Starting this thread after mistakenly sidetracking a thread in the show forum
Trying to comprehend the seemingly universal acceptance here that the Cauthon/Tylin arc supports the conclusion Mat was raped by Tylin and that the interactions between them are comparable to what Morgase suffered at the hands of Valda
The origin and discussion of this contention eluded me in the moment, and I have to educate myself on the arguments in favor of the position. Other than the interview with Harriet mentioned in the other thread, would greatly appreciate anyone pointing me to supporting contentions
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In short, I disagree with "rape" conclusion and the minimization of Morgase's trauma in comparison so would like to evaluate the underlying arguments for that conclusion
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The childishness gives him a chance to grow as a character. A sign of good writing that Jordan was able to elicit such a strong response in you. I've had similar responses to characters in lit, TV, and movies.
Not really though, it was more like I didn't care much about Mat on the first read years ago and skip most of his bits on re-read until the Stone pov and post-Couladin. Something for everyone to treasure in these books though, which helps make them great
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Oh my God I’m changing my answer the top thing I’d Balefire is the last dozen posts or so. Good grief people it’s a work of fiction. Please give it a rest or start a new thread.
Sorry for sidetracking this thread, probably better in the book discussion section of the forum
Thank you to those providing thoughtful answers above, this is a fascinating phenomenon to me but do realize no one here is the original proponent of the conclusion and it's otherwise not interesting to many
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Oh. I think I see your issue here; you got it worse, and you don't like implicitly putting the two situation on the same level.
Sure, of course what tylin did is a step below taking someone by force. And "rape" used to only refer to taking by force, while now it refers more broadly to taking by coercition.
Still, just because someone could try to fight, and chooses not to, it does not mean it's "ok", and it can easily still be rape in the meaning of "taken by coercition".
I remember, maybe 20 years ago, we had a big fuss in italy because a judge sentenced a rapist not guilty with the motivation "the victim was wearing jeans, and they are very difficult to remove by force. So, if the victim really had wanted to resist, the aggressor would not have been able to get those trousers off of her, and so she was consensual". There was a really, really big scandal around it, and I'm pretty sure the sentence was revised.
what you are claiming for mat is very similar: that if he had really wanted, if he could be willing to put his life in danger from a knife-wielding nut and her servants, then he could have resisted.
There's also the whole "me too" movement, about women basically blackmailed into having sex with their bosses if they wanted to keep the job, or to avoid mobbing. that's way less extreme than what was done to you, and even a fair bit less than what was done to mat, since they participated willingly and they could choose to get fired and hope to find another job. But still, we all agree what was done to them wasn't "ok", by any means.
The "he liked it afterward" argument also doesn't hold. I've seen an event with some women victims of rape holding signs with the justifications of their rapists, and the most common one was along the lines of "you'll like it afterward". And no, they were wrong.
It's more like "you could be stabbed, or maybe sold as a slave. And maybe the queen is bluffing and she wouldn't really do it, but you're not sure, and she has legal autority". Just because tylin put down the knife it doesn't mean she would not use it later, and tuon did offer to buy him as slave.
You can try to find a different word for mat and tylin, but really, you can't argue that what tylin did was "ok", not unless you want to implicitly undermine all the major feminist battles in the last decade.
P.S. I have no problems with mat being taken by the queen with... questionable consent. I accept that the world is not perfect, that bad things happen, and that there are bad people. I can read about mat being taken by an aggressive queen who won't take no as an answer, just like I can read about perrin losing family to the trollocs, as something bad that happens to the character. I can even accept that tylin is not evil, she just comes from a very odd culture.
What actually irks me about that storyline is that nynaeve and elayne react like it's mat's fault. that's real unfair, and from my perspective, it hurts much more.
It's like, I can accept bad things happening, I can accept being hurt by bad people, because it's clearly not my fault, and I keep my "honor". Life knocked me down, I got up, I'm still the same person afterward. But being blamed for a fault is a loss of "honor", it diminishes me on a much deeper level than just being a victim. I'm trying to explain why for me being blamed unjustly is worse than violence, not sure how well I'm doing it, anyway, that's what I really don't like about that storyline.
On a more general level, I hate seeing how unfairly nynaeve and elayne are treating mat, starting from the stone of tear and going all the way to evading him rather than cooperate.
there is so much circular logic and bootstrap reasoning in here it amounts to an incoherent statement of nothing sensical. Add in a bit of irrelevant colloquialism and I'm not sure what remains
You are equating acts that are exponentially different. It is a false equivalency
Mat and Tylin's interactions have absolutely nothing to do with any real world movement. Reiterating a false conclusion does not make it true and your appeal to outside authority bears no merit
At any point Mat could choose to leave and would not get fired, would not lose his ability to earn a living, would not get blackballed or ostracized or face a more difficult hiring process or any of the myriad atrocities foisted upon women in this country and to a greater degree in many places around the world
Morgase. Literally. Had. No. Option. To. End. Her. Rape
Belittle my experience all you want. I've traversed the road, survived and thrived
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Oh, I didn't realize. I feel much better now.
Is it okay to just ignore the real actual trauma that arises when someone is actually, physically incapable of resisting a sexual assault?
"Oh, you have to get your food from the city and not from the palace's cook" does not come close. At all. Ever
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I think they'll just tone it down and have Tylin seduce Mat, but in a far less rapey way. It's a good storyline and actually adds quite a bit of tension. So I doubt they'll cut it entirely.
Less rapey? Again, what the heck is going on where this conclusion is universally accepted and unchallenged? Please do explain to me how rape by a clearly physically superior person is the same as Mat never using his absolute physical advantage over Tylin while engaging in numerous, explicitly mutually pleasurable encounters with Tylin?
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As progressive as the show will be, I think they'll either drop Tylin and go right to Beslin or have the Gholam, if they include that, murder Tylin as he arrives and Mat stays to help Beslin and free demane. The biggest difference, societywise, is viewers will know what Valda does to Morgase is wrong and worthy of death immediately while not everyone will see it with Tylin and Randland, or whatever it's called, just doesn't have the concepts for male rape. It's shown by the fact that Nyneave and Elayne find it funny where they would instantly kill Valda. The situations are kind of similiar, neither Morgase nor Mat were technically forced but were both in a fortress where a word from Valda or Tylin would get them killed and so for different reasons, they were both taken advantage of in the cruelest way possible.
Kind of similar?????? What is going on here? A flipping heron sword wearing blademaster rapes a non-combat trained, non-physically active at all noble woman and it's somehow ok to equate that with what takes place between Mat and Tylin??!!
As a childhood rape surivivor, someone has to walk me through this step by freaking step before I accept that as anything close to possible
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except she was queen, she was in a country where she could have killed him with little to no repercussions, she had an army of servants that cooperated with her - and wanted mat to be her lover, because it would make her feel better over the seanchan invading - and he came from a culture where using force against a woman - which was required to "physically terminate her advancements" - was a big taboo.
Oh, I almost forgot, she carries a knife, she's competent with it, and she uses it liberally. If holding someone at knifepoint does not count as "forcing", I have no idea what does
They literally wake up naked in bed together with her knife having been stabbed into the bedpost. Alone, together. You can argue the Pattern forced him into the circumstances and therefore he had no choice, but to argue that he could have not physically have ended it right then and there or at however many other times they frolicked, is not very persuasive. Flouncing Mat was not rape survivor Mat
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More scenes than I could count and they have changed through the years on the re-reads
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nobody yet mentioned mat being forced to become tylin's lover...
He was not forced, he towered over Tylin and could quite easily have physically terminated her advancements at any point.
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Lan's lack of armor doesn't necessarily bother me because I don't know the context of the shot. Otherwise, I think things look great! Certainly nothing about any of this causes me grave concern.
For me personally, my first thoughts were (1) Mat looks really scraggly, I hope this is post-dagger; and (2) Egwene looks fierce - but maybe a little too fierce for this early in the series. Idk. Looking forward to release to find out!!
Early Mat in the books is nearly unbearable for me. Would be extremely happy if they play down the childish to some degree.
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I think it's likely they'll introduce some Forsaken without naming them as such. But yeah it's surprising that he sort of implies that Aginor and Balthamel won't be in S1. I suppose he might use Ba'alzamon in their place, or potentially might do away with the fight at the Eye and make the battle at Tarwin's Gap more prominent in the climax of the season. Tough to say what they'll change and how it will work out, but I'd really love for Moiraine's badass scene at the Eye to happen so I hope they have an antagonist there for her to face down whether it's a Forsaken or not.
The ageing-up of the main cast is another surprise for me. I can see this one being a bit controversial, especially if they're trying to portray them as mature adults at the beginning (which I doubt, but then again who knows?). I do understand wanting to get away from a YA feel though. And honestly I never knew the actual ages of the main cast so a minor change adding a couple years shouldn't bother me. But the general immaturity of the EF5 at the beginning goes hand-in-hand with their isolation in the Two Rivers, thematically. They learn about the wider world at the same time they're growing up. So I am still hoping to see that captured in the show.
This and the Logain capture would be great scenes to cement for viewers just how significant the difference between One Power wielders and non- actually is within the story.
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Well that’s interesting. The most “true to the books” interpretation of that answer is that we’ll be meeting a prominent Forsaken who is mistakenly identified early in the series as the DO himself.A less likely interpretation is that we’ll be meeting a certain Forsaken who first appears under a different name early in The Great Hunt - highly doubtful we’ll see that one until Season 2.
Also possible that Rafe will deviate from the books and introduce one or more other Forsaken in Season 1 without thusly identifying them.
But his answer also probably means - if taken literally - that we won’t be meeting Aginor or Balthamel in Season 1, or ever, as it would be hard not to realize what they are.
Almost certainly, though, he’s just referring to that one dude with with flaming eyes.
Good breakdown. The use of "any" in the question definitely lends to the Ba'alz and Ba'alz only conclusion, but there's some wiggle room. Maybe we get a Perrin dream sequence with an early glimpse of an un-named few scheming in T'a'R, or who knows what. I can hardly wait to see this telling
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it will also be easier for the future of the shows. if this thing is successful, we can expect the show to last for about 10 years. by that time, the main cast will be 30. but only a couple years passed in the story, so you'd have to still pass them as much younger. start by passing the character as a bit older than the actor, and it will be easier to keep up appearances later
Good point. 10 would be fine by me
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I also liked the non-answer about who's always late.
He made me chuckle with that reply, intimating there's that one actress/actor that's always dragging their behind, but not throwing them under the bus by naming them
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Just a few Q, but thought the following were interesting:
1. Rafe, who’s Idea was it to have Mat have a beard?
Rafe Judkins: We aged up the Emond’s Field Five from the books because sometimes TV shows with a bunch of 17 year olds as leads feel more like YA and Wheel of Time isn’t YA2. Will The World of Dreams be in the show?
Rafe Judkins: How could you do the show without it?3. Can we expect to see any of the Forsaken in s1?
Rafe Judkins: It depends on how much you know about the Forsaken1 Very happy about this answer
2 We'd discussed this one here months back, and I'm glad to see confirmation it will be there. Intrigued with the possibilities
3 What fun
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Look great to me. I'd always thought of The Three Musketeers type wardrobing for head canon. Relieved that Nyn looks fierce - Ms. Robins' kind eyes had me a smidge worried.
Haven't seen the Dusty Wheel, I don't see a ring, just some stray fur from his cuff ?♂️ but a ring wouldn't bother me one iota ... probably wouldn't even notice it unless highlighted somehow in the show.
Egwene looks amazing ... I might be developing a crush.
Big rings for AS wasn't a tool I'd pondered but will certainly help viewers distinguish them amongst the myriad characters.
How often does Lan actually wear armor in the books? I haven't tallied but that was never something I thought he did on a daily basis. Am much more interested in how he comes across and the juxtaposition of his relationships with Nyn/Mo
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To what article are you referring? Can you link it @Fano'Lan Redux
I only recall one personal agenda article given a spotlight on this platform and prefer to not link it
Cauthon and Tylin arc/Morgase comparison (!Caution! Sensitive Topic - Read at Your Own Risk)
in Wheel of Time Books
Posted
It may be the culturally acceptable thing to say "rape is rape" then dust your hands as if that changes the reality of care needed for the victims but that falls a little short of convincing for me. Perhaps that issue is much bigger than the WoT discussion and better addressed in different forums, I'll follow your lead on that.
As to the accident example, it's more like there are multiple stages of care required for these two separate victims and while most steps are the same those who have been put in fear of their own imminent demise require a step that includes evaluation/treatment of any existing physical damage and an effective assurance of safety from on going threat(s) to existence - before undertaking any additional healing steps. Recognizing that distinction does not deny the tragedy for either.
As to the murder example, since all victims are dead, the focus on criminal culpability is all that's left for society to address in that circumstance. Parsing intent and fine tuning sentencing make no difference to the dead.
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As to the WoT scenario, the conclusion "he was in fact, raped" is a conclusion that's in doubt for me as to it's support in the text. If external sources indicate that conclusion in the words of Team Jordan, please point me in the right direction.