I have to admit to some really serious confusion here.

Don't get me wrong, I love Moirraine.  I loved her Gandalf-esque way of leaving the party.  I love her calm solemnity, and her caring nature.  I'm actually really upset that she did not get to see Rand at the end of the book; why couldn't her AND Cadsuane have seen Rand canter off at the end?  Between her and the soon-to-be Amrylin, I think Moirraine deserved it more.  She also deserves the Stole and Seat more too, but that's another gripe.

But really, why, WHY was she needed in the cave confronting the Dark One?  Nyaneave makes perfect sense; Immensely strong, helped cleanse Saidin, but why Moirraine who is far weaker than she was before?  Nearly anyone else could or should have gone in, particularly someone more powerful to make using the angreal even more potent.

I really just don't get it.  I'd love to hear everyone else's opinion on this too!

I have to admit to some really serious confusion here.

Don't get me wrong, I love Moirraine.  I loved her Gandalf-esque way of leaving the party.  I love her calm solemnity, and her caring nature.  I'm actually really upset that she did not get to see Rand at the end of the book; why couldn't her AND Cadsuane have seen Rand canter off at the end?  Between her and the soon-to-be Amrylin, I think Moirraine deserved it more.  She also deserves the Stole and Seat more too, but that's another gripe.

But really, why, WHY was she needed in the cave confronting the Dark One?  Nyaneave makes perfect sense; Immensely strong, helped cleanse Saidin, but why Moirraine who is far weaker than she was before?  Nearly anyone else could or should have gone in, particularly someone more powerful to make using the angreal even more potent.

I really just don't get it.  I'd love to hear everyone else's opinion on this too!

11. Rand al'Thor used the Black Tower to lure the Forsaken there.  Making a battalion of male channeled was not about making weapons for a physical fight, but a metaphorical one to get a Forsaken overplay their hand and turn it on him. 

8. Egwene will become tied to the Horn of Valere for her actions in this life, just as Noam/Jain Farstrider did.

9. Cadsuane will tell Moirainne of Rand's survival (I STILL think she should have been the one to see him ride off at the end).

10. Cadsuane will refuse the Stole and Seat for a second time, and endorse Moirraine who will take up the stole, reappointing Leane as her Keeper of the Chronicles.

I think we've gone far afield of the original question...

1. Birgitte is an unreliable narrator, and gunpowder had been used for weaponry long ago.  Due to the fact that she was here in the flesh, she could not recall it.

2. Birgitte is an unreliable narrator, and gunpowder has never been used for weaponry long ago.  However, because the WoT is cyclical, technically, this statement is false.

3. Robert Jordan experienced a series of flashbacks from a previous life, is the current incarnation of the Dragon Reborn and wrote of a time many wheel passings ago, as to end this Age.  As such, he cannot perfectly finish his description of his previous life and had to die prior to finishing to ascertain a 'corrupted' version from Brandon Sanderson.

4. Balefired people's essences scatter into the pattern to combine with others essences to make new souls that are agglomerations of their previous souls.

5. Balefired people experience Groundhog's Day until the Pattern can sort out the hiccup in their thread's journey through the Age Lace.

6. The Aes Sedai who swore on the Oath Rod multiple times (Pevara, Seaine, etc) will die much more quickly than their counterparts who only took the Three Oaths. (They've compounded their Oaths)

7. Hopper will be reborn as a human instead of a wolf.

 

just an observation,rand did spend more time with mat than anyone during their eye of

the world journey,yet,he was completely unaffected by the shadar logoth taint.

 

The difference is that Mat was being corrupted by the taint of the dagger. Mat himself had no ability to corrupt anything.

 

Padan Fain was able to corrupt others by his mere presence because he *was* Morgoth. Where the dagger carried a small piece of Shada Logoth's taint, Padan Fain carried within him the source of that evil.

 

Well said.  Morgoth and Fain were the change in the dagger that brought about the effect of Adrihol on others during the story.

I think it was a combination of several things. First though... in regards to both how Egwene and Elaida changed I liken it to the bust rate of college quarterbacks playing in the NFL. You never know what you're going to get until the pressure is on. Egwene was able to rise and overcome the pressure where Elaida succumbed to it and more or less washed out. Being a leader like that is one of those things where success is very difficult to determine ahead of time.

 

Egwene's success as Amerlyn come from several places. First is that she was toughened up by the wise ones. Second was that she was guided by Siuan with both of them being fully invested... Siuan the teacher and Egwene welcoming the the guidance.

 

It's hard to say whether the dream with Gawyn had any effect. It could have just been as simple as the assurance that knowing the person she loves returns the love. That can have a very self-assuring affect, especially to someone in their late teens.

I think your final paragraph was very well said.  Perhaps it was just that simple.  :)

just an observation,rand did spend more time with mat than anyone during their eye of

the world journey,yet,he was completely unaffected by the shadar logoth taint.

He did indeed.  However, this was before Fain had the dagger in his clutches.  So I don't think it's 100% the same.

in your opinion,did padan fain corrupt elaida to some degree?

Yes.  He made her more paranoid, and it grew until she was not just a bad decision to put a Red Ajah member on the Seat, but to be a terrible Aes Sedai and human being in the end.  We saw it in CoS with Toram Riatin so quickly falling under Fain's control.  His meetings with Elaida did this to her.  What surprises me is how Niall was barely touched by him, but I think that's more of an analysis of the CoL and Niall's own persona.

The taint of Shadar Logoth is strong, and even the smallest of cuts could corrupt and kill quickly.  It nearly killed Matt, turned him massively paranoid, Fain was corrupted by it, and those who spent their time with Fain were destroyed as well. (The CoL who followed him and the Darkfriends as well)

Ok, so this has been bothering me ever since my first reading of tWoT.  Is Egwene's story arc heavily edited by the fact that Gawyn unknowingly caught her in a dream?  Multiple times in that passage she reflects on the fact that there are two Egwene's within her.  One is herself, and the other is the one that is reacting in the script that Gawyn is performing in his mind as he dreams.

Eventually, even that part of Egwene that was created from the dream speaks to her.  She asks the true Egwene about her fear, as if confused.  They both love Gawyn, so why is she fighting so hard?  The two end the passage merging, and Egwene embraces the fact she loves Gawyn.  

Gawyn sees her as more beautiful than she sees herself.  He sees her as his one and only love.  While Egwene loves him in return and dreams of him often, I am more concerned with how strong the tonal shift is from her a few chapters prior, to her arrival in Salidar.  She seems to grow incredibly fast between those two sections of the very same book.  I am wondering if the dream Egwene, the Egwene Gawyn sees has affected her to the point that her personality was heightened/enhanced by the dream version of her, and the Egwene we see from this point on is a combination of the two.

I'm not trying to say that Egwene could not have been a good (or even great) Amyrlin, (Though I am reserving my opinions of her at the end of the series at this time because that too was an odd step back for her during tLB) but the ease to which she dove into the politics, the fierce sense of self, the pride and honor she chose, all of those things were being trained by the Wise Ones, but after that one night stand in Gawyn's dreams, it seems...ramped up.  Overinflated.  Steroid-like.

In a previous post in the thread regarding Elaida and her capture by the Seanchan I mention that Elaida's base personality was manipulated by Padan Fain during his time at the White Tower.  The Elaida of the first three books was not like that.  Stern and austere, yes, but not capricious and petty.  If Padan Fain affected Elaida, is there a chance that Gawyn (inadvertently) affected Egwene?

So, is it because of Gawyn?  Is it because Robert Jordan needed her to "woman up" quickly?  Or am I ignoring aspects of Egwene that I didn't see before?  To me, she was the most naive of the Wondergirls, and that seemed to evaporate as soon as she was summoned to Salidar.

And yes, I like Egwene, I like her a lot.  So this is a thought that I have thought long and hard about. :)

Please remember (And this is not an apologist post for Elaida) that Elaida's personality was badly affected by Padan Fain.  He screwed with her psyche as he did with Toram Riatin and to a lesser extent Pedron Niall, to name a few.  The woman we briefly saw in EotW, tGH, and tSR was different tonally in those books from the woman we met after Fain left the WT.

Regardless of that, those aspects of Elaida must have existed within her prior to his departure or else there would not have been this change.

 

But how many damane have Alivia's strength in the One Power? The scenario I outlined is still possible if there are alot of channellers with that strength level. Also, Bair saw the same thing that Aviendha did post Merrilor. It was when Egwene met the Wise Ones that final time. Something had to have happened in the world to the Seanchan and Tuon specifically if the vision holds.

 

What scene are you referring to? IIRC, in Aviendha's visions, Tuon died of old age.

 

In her viewing of the future, it was mentioned that the Empress died mysteriously.  And Mat was not mentioned at all.  I think that may mean there was an assassination attempt that was successful.  The vision of the future said that they had been close to finding some middle ground with Fortuona before her passing.

 

 

 

The aiel failed to keep to the way of the lead, and they failed to get all the objects of power to safety iirc?

During Rand's time in the ter'angreal at Rhuidean the Dai'shain Aiel were following the Way of the Leaf the entire time.  When the Collam Daan was destroyed as Mierin and Beidomon bore a hole into the Dark One's prison, his ancestor was on the street, and not in attendance of his Aes Sedai.  All he said in the moment was that [the Aiel] failed.  He didn't explain it any other way.  And considering another of his ancestors saying farewell to his Aes Sedai, it was written that she smoothed his hair like she would to a child.

 

Looking at all that information, it seems that the Dai'shain Aiel were considered the moral core for the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends.  Almost like so'jihn, they were hereditary servants, but due to their following of the Way of the Leaf, the Aes Sedai 'protected' them from violence.  In return the Aiel served them.  And again, I think they were the voice of reason and morality for the Aes Sedai, who felt that they could do nearly anything they wanted as they were adept in using the power.  That leads to some strong arrogance, which perhaps was the need for the Aiel at that time.

I think that's an interesting train of thought, and there may be some truth to it... the author may have had some of it in somewhere mind? But it takes some leaps of logic through the text, and relies on facts not in direct evidence. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I just don't see it in the story.

 

I also don't think RJ had too much of an issue with arrogance as a character trait among the very powerful, except in the forsaken. Well, maybe the kings and queens and aes sedai got a bit heavy handed but for the most part that behavior and attitude seems to be excused by or at least inherent in their positions. And being arrogant I doubt the aiel's duty would be to keep them morally centered. Imo the failure is explained in the flashbacks in rhuidean for the most part

 

 

One thing that I've noted is that RJ seemed to be OK with arrogance as long as it came with a moral compass. One of the things with the Forsaken was that they were both arrogan, craved power, and would do anything to get it, whereas LTT was arrogant yet was a moral man (as evidenced by being with Ilyena vs Mierin).

 

I agree that this is an unconventional theory, but I think that's partly why I got so excited and wanted to share it. :)  Looking at the motivations of the people of the Age of Legends, I found strange disparities in the societal roles of the Aes Sedai, the Aiel, and the general population.  If it was a peaceful society, then why was the Way of the Leaf/The Covenant of the Aiel so highly respected and emulated?  Is it because there is a darker core to this perfect society?  That's the thought process that led me down the path of speculation and its conclusion I had to share with everyone. :)

You are correct that they did not get all of the objects of power to safety, but that was after the War of Power, during the Breaking.  Solinda Sedai glossed over the need to keep the objects of power safe, and focusing instead on reminding Jonai that he must uphold the Covenant above all else.  Jonai agreed to do as such, though his focus was more on the objects of power and the chora cuttings.  I think, ultimately, the objects of power were just used to get the Aiel out of the cities and get them moving.  As Deindre Sedai Foretold at that time, Callandor was needed at a certain point.  I would think that Callandor would have been packed away with the rest of the objects of power that were given to the Aiel for safekeeping if it wasn't for that.  Diendre Sedai knew what would become of the Aiel, and if she shared all of it, Solinda Sedai did her best to try and protect the Aiel the only way she felt she could

I agree that RJ was alright with arrogance, provided it was rooted in good intentions.  But then again, the road to hell is paved with such.  And based on my random musings, if we take that the AoL society was arrogant, look at where it led them.  I do not think the Aiel's failure is well explained at all, which is another reason I went down this path of speculation.  The failure was first referenced when the Collam Daan was destroyed.  I never felt that it was adequately explained.

I'm not so sure LTT was all that moral, thinking of how he was exposed in flashbacks and in his mad maunderings within Rand's mind.  He seemed a grade-A jerk to me, overall.

So a few things... first though, this is a great thread topic.

 

1) One of the things that Rand discovered during his battle with the Dark One at the bore is that killing the Dark One would be just as bad as the Dark One winning in that people would be empty, robotic,and not quite have free will. So while the Age of Legends was very ideal from a perspective of conveniences, technology, health, weather, hunger, etc..., and very advanced in terms of OP use there were still problems. Human problems from ambition, jealousy, arrogance, failure, etc... still happened. Further evidence of this is the original purpose of the oath rods. They were used to "fix" certain behaviors.

 

2) The War of Power really started about 80-100 years after the bore. The effects of the Dark One's touch wasn't immediate. Remember that earliest passage of Rand's time in the ter'angreal. A man bumped into Rand's ancestor and was a jerk, but then immediately apologized once he became aware that he was Aeil. So, people were still people... there wasn't an avenue for pure evil like there was once the Dark One could touch the world.

 

3) I always interpreted the Aiel's failure as a few things. First their "mission" from the Aes Sedai was to take the ter'angreal and Avendesora somewhere once the breaking started. It's unclear if this was a specific location or not. Second would be that outside of the Jenn, that the Aeil stopped following the Way of the Leaf... but to me that's more of a cultural thing than "failing the Aes Seda". 

Thank you for the compliment, I was very excited when I stumbled on this train of thought and couldn't wait to share it with others!  As soon as I started talking to friends about it, I got quite a few blank stares, which did make me feel a bit frustrated.

I think your first point coupled with your second is a strong one; ultimately, I believe in free will, and my biggest argument that I have with myself over that theory is that I cannot believe all human behavior comes from the Dark One in the books, and from outside sources IRL. (But that second bit is a looooong conversation that doesn't have to do with this LoL)  I firmly believe there cannot be good without evil, else you have something completely undefined.  I guess, putting it simply, every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

In regards to your final point, I just think that the Aes Sedai were only interested in preserving what of the Aiel they could, especially after 100,000 (Give or take a 0) saved a great number of people by singing to a mad male Aes Sedai member, buying time for those who fled the city.  After such a wholesale slaughter, I think the Aes Sedai were committed to save those who were in their care.  They never specified a location, and thanks to the dreams of Rand's ancestors' wives, they learned they needed to go forth and multiply in the Waste.

Yes, because the Aiel discontinued their following of the Way of the Leaf, they broke their covenant and were no longer Dai'shan (An oath of dedication to their very bones, I think Moirraine once said in Book 4 when she travels to Rhuidean).  Their failure to the Aes Sedai occurred before they ever set foot on a road to find a safe place according to the memories of Rand during his final vision in the ter'angreal at Rhuidean.

Mrs. Cindy gill is right,some time after the breaking of the world,the da'shain aiel were ordered by the aes sedai to carry objects of power to safety,(rand's seventh flashback at rhuidean),during the incredibly long journey to the three fold land,the da'shain aiel disintegrated from one people into three,i.e.the tuatha'an who remained nonviolent but failed in their duty to the aes sedai,the aiel,who broke the nonviolence covenant and renounced the way of the leaf for the way of the spear,and the jenn aiel,who remained true to their covenant and duty but dwindled and died at rhuidean.

Ms. Cindy was right, and that final breaking of the Covenant destroyed the Aiel until only the Jenn remained, and they too, died off.

@dexterryu,

"it's unclear if this was a specific location or not".

I urge you to re-read rand's entire sequence of flashbacks at rhuidean,it is obvious that solinda sedai didn't have a specific location in mind"keep moving, always moving,until you find a place of safety where no one can harm you".

 

"But to me that's more of a cultural thing than failing the aes sedai".

The da'shain aiel's covenant i.e.serving aes sedai and following the way of the leaf was not a cultural thing,it was their raison d'etre,the covenant was everything "keep the covenant,jonai.if the da'shain aiel lose everything else,see they keep the way of the leaf.promise me.of course, aes sedai,he said shocked.the covenant was the aiel,and the aiel were the covenant".

 

I agree with you, Jack.  Thank you for the direct quotes!

The aiel failed to keep to the way of the lead, and they failed to get all the objects of power to safety iirc?

During Rand's time in the ter'angreal at Rhuidean the Dai'shain Aiel were following the Way of the Leaf the entire time.  When the Collam Daan was destroyed as Mierin and Beidomon bore a hole into the Dark One's prison, his ancestor was on the street, and not in attendance of his Aes Sedai.  All he said in the moment was that [the Aiel] failed.  He didn't explain it any other way.  And considering another of his ancestors saying farewell to his Aes Sedai, it was written that she smoothed his hair like she would to a child.

Looking at all that information, it seems that the Dai'shain Aiel were considered the moral core for the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends.  Almost like so'jihn, they were hereditary servants, but due to their following of the Way of the Leaf, the Aes Sedai 'protected' them from violence.  In return the Aiel served them.  And again, I think they were the voice of reason and morality for the Aes Sedai, who felt that they could do nearly anything they wanted as they were adept in using the power.  That leads to some strong arrogance, which perhaps was the need for the Aiel at that time.

Ok, so get this:

I've been thinking a lot about the Aiel and their purpose during the Age of Legends.  A group of people who have bound themselves and all (ostensibly) successive generations of their progeny to non-violence and service of the Aes Sedai.  In fact, when the Bore was made and the hole in the Dark One's prison were created, Rand's ancestor said specifically that they failed.  I had always found that odd; what had they failed to do?  How?  Beyond just keeping the Aes Sedai cautious, which you can tell people to be careful as much as you'd like, but I can't imagine that the Aes Sedai would always listen.

A few days ago, I finally read River of Souls. (My opinion on that can be saved for another day.) Within Bao (Demandred) describes how he was trained to assumed The Oneness.  Within this description, it was reported that Barid Bel Medar learned to get The Oneness being dragged on a sled in snow, and with a coal pressed to his skin.  Regardless of the quality of healing in that time, neither of these practices sound like the practices of an advanced society.  That revelation, combined with the Aiel, and the last few books that kept discussing how Lews Therin was so arrogant led me to an interesting conclusion.

So!  My theory is this: The Age of Legends wasn't as utopian as it is described.  It was actually a society built on overbearing pride, status-driven social climbers, and a callous regard of their society as a whole.  In fact, it mirrors a little what the Dark One had in mind for the world.  Remember what people did to Charn on the eve of the end of the War of Power?  All they feared was the Ogier coming after them.

Perhaps the Dark One was influencing society more subtly than anyone would have imagined, enticed Mierin Eronaile (Lanfear/Cyndane) and Beidomon to unwittingly drilled a hole into the prison of the Dark One.  Due to this dystopian society that had a utopian sheen to it, the Aiel were indeed the only people who held to a true path on the Light.

What do you all think of this?  I'd love to hear points and counter-points!

Callandor is flawed because much like Vora's Sa'angreal (The one that Egwene uses in The Last Battle, and the White Tower Raid) it does not have the buffer that keeps the user safe from taking too much of the power within them, or keeps them from being forced into linking/circles.

Cadsuane said in the ninth book, or perhaps the eighth that Cadsuane tells Rand of the flaws of Callandor, including that it induced 'wildness' and increased the taint in saidin while the taint existed on it.

I think you may want to consider it like Marvel's mutant powers, or the meta-humans of DC.  It's the strength/affinity/powerset you were born with that effects such abilities.

Your idea is very interesting.  To quote Neo of the Matrix: Whoa.

if RJ had come to you and said you could make 1 change to the series what would it be?

After thanking him for the series, I would have asked him to let Moirraine see Rand off at the end of the book, instead of Cadsuane.  Or, if he really wanted Caddy to be there, let them both stand there, give each other a grudging nod, then walk off in different directions.  That way Jordan could let Caddy be ambushed by the Sitters. (Granted, I am actually quite upset that Egwene died, I liked her a ton, and wish that one of the main characters didn't have to go, but I get the reasons why)

Alternatively, if that wouldn't fly, shorten the Shaido Aiel capturing Faile and the others by 90%.  My God, did that drag.

 

Yes, anyone killed with Balefire will comeback.  The DO can't bring you back because he can't locate the soul, since you actually died before you died.  To bring someone back he has to know when you died.  But with balefire he has no idea if an hour of what you did is gone, five minutes etc.   So as the DO said he would need to step outside of time to get the soul.  Basically what you did in that life is damaged but your soul is still out there to be reborn one day since you aren't removed from the pattern.  My guess this is sort of a failsafe device so no one can try to balefire everyone out of existence. 

 

I found this example in another topic on balefire:

 

But they aren't removed from the pattern, their thread merely burns backwards a bit. Think about touching a shoe string with a lighter. Balefire is not the final death...their soul will still be reborn.

This could be another example of mistaken information much as the Aes Sedai with all their lore were wrong about the Horn of Valere and their fear the Shadow could summon the Heroes if it fell into their hands.  At worst, they could only deny its access to the Forces of Light for the last battle.  So it is up in the air whether Balefire actually removes a soul for good, and whether dying in T'A'R is a final death as well.  After all, Hopper came back in beast mode when the horn was sounded, and he had died in TAR.  Lots of loose ends for us to ponder.  These are some I agree didn't need to be tied up.

 

This is my first post on the forums but I have a question.  Hopper was in the Last Battle?  I thought he died in T'A'R and he (in my own mind) was just a soul loosely floating to await a new rebirth, perhaps as a different creature. (Wolves just keep getting recycled into wolves each lifetime)

I really did think that Balefire destroyed a soul completely.  I suppose I was thinking in too linear a fashion.  Just because a thread was burned after the pattern was woven doesn't mean the thread is picked up again afterward.  But...I'm still not sure, I could use a little clarification please!!