43 minutes ago, haycraftd said:

Egwene/Gawyn--we only had a few words from Elayne to signify that there might be something when Elayne told Egwene to stop looking at Galad.  It never develops beyond "I like you," even though it had plenty of time to grow.  And both of them were insufferable--especially Gawyn.  You could see Egwene grow, even if all she grew into was an Aes Sedai spider.  Gawyn, though?  He was lost, bitter, and jealous throughout it.  He started out with potential--but I found it funny how Elayne and Gawyn constantly criticise Galad as too pure, but Galad moves on from the White Tower coup and becomes a fairly significant leader.  Gawyn never does.  

 

I didn't like Rand's three--Aviendha, Min, and Elayne--but that was primarily because Min/Rand made sense, the other two didn't.  You can see the reasons why they fell in love--Elayne's walks with him in Tear and Aviendha's advice--but their relationships never developed from that.  Min's reasons are less obvious, but you can see how Rand/Min grows--she's always there for Rand, even when the Dark One nearly turns him.

I really agree with you regarding Egwene and Gawyn.  I felt like their relationship suffered terribly from a shallow pretense, and became a very strange relationship.  You would have thought that Gareth Bryne would have seen the type of person that Gawyn was and would've rooted out some of those negative personality archetypes.

I felt that the later characterization of Gawyn was heavily influenced by Sanderson.  The plot within The Towers of Midnight with Gawyn getting to the root of his problems with Rand and Egwene were based in complete jealousy.  That struck a very sour chord within me.  I felt like Gawyn would not feel that way since from childhood he was groomed to be the second to a flippin' queen.  How, and why, did he not understand chains of command?  His jealousy of Rand because Rand was  the Dragon Reborn? (And his insistence on believing Rand killed Morgase was silly too)

It seemed to me that Sanderson turned Gawyn from misguided to a lazy interpretation of the "nice guy" archetype.  He seemed eternally frustrated that he wasn't the main character in everyone else's life, especially Egwene's.  As someone who grew up in a royal castle, he was surely trained in understanding power dynamics, politics, and how to maneuver complex situations.  Instead, he whined, moaned, stole, and hid from others.  Then his "epiphany" at the end of the 13th book was just senseless.

And not to beat a dead horse, but I really think Sanderson didn't like Min.  Her participation in the books that he wrote was rather miniscule.  I've reread his books over and over looking for tone in any chapter that has Min in it. (Why yes, I really like her character!) The conclusion I have come to is that most of the last 4 books' chapters with Min in them were written by Jordan, not Sanderson.  The ones that he did write for her differ greatly in tone. (Just like how he wrote Mat so differently from how Jordan did)

55 minutes ago, Raolin Darksbane said:

Not sure if this Thread is still active, In fact, it definitely isn't, but I'm just gonna put my two cents in. Mat and Tuon was the worst romance in WoT no contest. It even beats out Gawyn and Egwene, Morgase and Tallanvor, and Perrin and Faile(all three of which are trash imo). Not only is Tuon herself one of the worst characters in the series, but the relationship is extremely unbelievable and rushed. And If everyone is forgetting this, it only came about because the Aelfinn told Mat he would marry the Daughter of the nine Moons. It wouldn't have happened if you hadn't told him that dummies! 

Tuon was also given a Foretelling (more or less) by a damane the night before they arrived to Ebou Dar.  She ordered the damane caned due to it.  Lidya was the damane's name, right?

Worst relationship to me was the three-in-one relationship.  And I must say, while I LOVE Perrin and Faile, I cannot stand what their story became.  The love made sense more or less, and I found the parts of Perrin and Faile trying to navigate how to be gentry in the Two Rivers more interesting.  Faile had the skill but no desire to apply, while Perrin had no desire to apply the skill.  

That is not to say that I enjoyed his endless complaints about being a lord.  That all could have wrapped up faster and maybe instead of having such a meandering plot, Perrin could've wrapped up the whole Malden thing quickly, returned to Rand with the WC and over 100,000 freed gai'shain, then be sent to Saldaea to prepare the Borderlands.  Since Faile is third in line for the throne and Tenobia MIA they could've rallied the troops and prepared whoever was still stationed in the Borderlands.  And you know, make more catapults like they did in the Two Rivers.  I did notice a severe lack of those in the Last Battle.

So yeah.  I liked Tuon and Mat.  I felt that Moirraine and Thom came from the same left field of Nynaeve and Lan (You only get that they're in love if you read Book 1, and in Thom/Moirraine's case, and Book 4 with that knowledge in mind).  I don't mind the three relationships that I outlined in this paragraph, but I haven't even gotten to the one that is the most vexing to me:

Rand, Elayne, Aviendha, and Min.  I cannot STAND that relationship.  Aside from the women being VERY accomodating to a VERY unorthodox (by Randland standards even) relationship, the end of the book annoyed me.  Rand wondering which will follow him.

Um...

Elayne has TWO, count 'em, TWO countries to run.  Aviendha, earning much ji for all her actions in the Last Battle (Leading the channelers at Shayol Ghoul, specifically being picked by the Dragon Reborn to watch his back while he fought inside and remade the Bore, fighting and besting as well as capturing a Forsaken, just to name a few) will certainly turn to work on helping the Aiel maintain a purpose, negotiate the return of the Wise Ones captive in the Seanchan Empire, and preserve as much of the Aiel as possible.  And Min was plucked up by Tuon, who will doubtfully let her soe'fia as well as a Doomspeaker leave her.  "Darbinda" will have a hard time leaving the Seanchan Empress.  And really, would she?  She would be the strongest way to help Mat convince Tuon to at the very least, peacefully coexist with the still existing independent nations of Randland. (That's with Shara notwithstanding)  Oh.  Also, two of those three ladies are pregnant, one more than halfway through her pregnancy.  Who in their right mind would assume such an arrogant thought?

That whole relationship hit far too many sour notes for me.  ...Not that any of you can tell.

In Lords of Chaos, Nicola Fortells that that world done with battle, but battle not done with the world.  In the same book - and other books as well - there are mentions about Rand regarding how he needs to not die after the end of the battle.  Egewene Dreams that a man is lying in his deathbed but it is imperative that he not die, though there are songs being raised for the man's funeral and funeral pyre.

If RJ lived, I imagine that he would have dropped a tidbit or three about how Rand was supposed to do more/experience more after tLB.

On 7/24/2018 at 10:47 AM, solarz said:

 

Birgitte should stick to shooting people with a bow, she's obviously got no tactical sense.

 

Why would you send an cavalry against channelers? Why not just ambush them with a company of archers?

^THIS^

22 hours ago, solarz said:

 

I would say Aiel only have one name. Their sept, clan, and lineage are not part of their names, just part of their introductions.

 

To them, calling Elayne Trakand "Elayne" would be like calling Aviendha "Avi". To be fair, I have no idea why they'd even make that distinction when most of them have names like Gaul, Bain, Amys, Bair.

That was the best way to explain the discrepancy I've seen so far.  Thank you for clearing it up!  It makes sense now!

The Aiel state that calling someone by half of their name is akin to calling them by a honey name.  So if that's the case, why don't they always address one another by name, sept, and clan?  Wetlanders by full name, and all Aiel by their honey names?  Doesn't make any sense.

Here's another:

Graendal: You Give Love a Bad Name

I know I've been using a lot of the 80s Greatest Hits.  But sometimes, when it applies...

This is a more personal thought, but I always imagined what it must be like to embrace Saidar and if I were a man, how to seize Saidin.  These two songs always come to mind when I imagine it:

Embracing Saidar/Seizing Saidin: Parabol/Parabola by Tool off their Lateralus Album.  I felt the dual songs (While not equal in time) show an excellent audio example of what I would imagine the experience to be similar to.

Also, for Seizing Saidin: Through Fire And Flames - Dragonforce

1 hour ago, solarz said:

That seems silly. Geofram Bornhald is the best Whitecloak commander after Pedron Niall. He manages to bring 2000 horsemen across Tarabon without being seen, yet he forgets to send a few scouts to find out about the Seanchan in Falme?

I have to agree with you.  It was amazing how that just seemed to be there to advance the plot, and I don't really mean Falme, I mean Perrin's overarching storyline.  I also cast doubt on how the Seanchan didn't notice them until just before Bornhald is within a short gallop of the city.  The Seanchan would have patrols too.

The whole thing reeked of a potential accidental edit where the necessary paragraphs were.  I just finished re-reading Book 2, and I really cannot recall anything that justifies what Bornhald, Niall, or the Questioners that Bornhald was bandying with (Was one of them Carridin?) did throughout tGH that would have sent Bornhald and all of his soldiers to their death at Falme.

I had a thought the other day and wanted to share with everyone: What songs, albums, or media could poetry characters, scenes, or other aspects of Wheel of Time?

I'll go first!

Damane: Freak on a Leash - Korn

Also for Damane: Pet - A Perfect Circle

Semirhage: Reptile - Nine Inch Nails

Lews Therin: Diary of a Mad Man

I'm sure I'll think of a few more, but I'd love to hear what everyone else is thinking!

Lord of Chaos was my FAVORITE book of the series when I was reading it (Sometime around when Crossroads of Twilight came out) but I refused to be seen with that harlequin novel cover.  I ended up doing something that is anathema to me: I would bend the cover around to cover the back!

Nowadays I have a skin condition and can't read paper copies of books any longer.  All my books are now on my Paperwhite; so they have the pretty covers now, LoL.

However, my Audible books all have the original covers so...yeah.  The embarrassment has returned!

On 4/22/2018 at 9:36 PM, wotfan4472 said:

No.The Eye of the World was created just before the Stone was near the beginning of the Breaking. We have a scene in Rand's Rhuidian excursion that they were preparing to go make it. Only they needed to tell Someshta their plans for him before leaving to do it. The Stone was going to be made afterwards to protect Callandor. That was their next task. The scene takes place in Paaran Disen.

I don't know Wotfan.  I have to admit, based on the items on the table in that flashback, I thought that they were going to put Callandor into the Stone.  The Sword That is Not a Sword was also on the table, along with the Dragon's Banner.  My assumption was that they were going to use both halves of the Source to create the protection for the sword, and not the pool of pure Saidin.  But that's just me. :)

There is no one Song.  As Rand saw as he went through the ter'angreal in Rhuidean he saw when the Tuatha'an split from the Aiel.  The man said specifically: We will go somewhere that we can sing in peace.  Over the hundreds of years the "go somewhere to sing in peace" was mutated into "find the song".

When LTT asked Ishy if he had the Voice, and that it was soon time for singing, it referred to the second to last past Rand saw through his ancestor that those who have the Voice are chosen to sing to crops (amongst assuredly others things) with the Ogier and Somsheta.  Those Voices hold the power of life and growing.  Amongst being a moral core for the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends, this was a task the Aiel dedicated themselves to.

20 hours ago, Maedelin said:

 

(Spoilers ahead, be warned!)

 

And yet, when Egwene died in The Last Battle, Rand was devastated.  She actually had to speak to him from beyond the veil of death (Good thing he was in an area where reality was very weak) and help him to truly let the names that burdened his soul go.

3 hours ago, solarz said:

 

Well, we have to keep in mind that they're not ordinary ex's, they're ex's that grew up together in a small village.

Yes.  And I think that shows that Rand does care about Egwene.  I think, perhaps, he did not assume he had to put her in that list of people only because if he listed everyone, it might've gotten ridiculous.  Thom nearly killed himself in tEotW fighting a Fade.  He wasn't on that list either.

In tGH, Rand refused to go to Verin with the rest, instead stating he would go back to Falme for Egwene. (Mat did too, including crying that "freeing Egwene" wasn't a "waste of time". (I did my notation there badly, please forgive)

I mean, Egwene should've been included, Thom too, but they weren't.  I'd honestly chalk it up to writer's forgetfulness, just like how in Book 5 it was noted that Galad cared for Nynaeve, when it was very clear throughout the books he had a soft spot for Egwene.  My arguments aside, I really think this is all just oversight.

3 hours ago, solarz said:

Egwene is, simply put, Rand's ex-girlfriend. The way they still *think* they know each other, the way they rile each other up every time they talk, it's all perfectly clear.

(Spoilers ahead, be warned!)

And yet, when Egwene died in The Last Battle, Rand was devastated.  She actually had to speak to him from beyond the veil of death (Good thing he was in an area where reality was very weak) and help him to truly let the names that burdened his soul go.

4 hours ago, Occams whiskey bottle said:

 

Like he broke his life/personality into 3 characters. Mat represented his playful, promiscuous, mischievousness, Perrin his love of wife, family, wildlife, and Rand being his life experiences as a soldier in Vietnam. 

Ha!  What an interesting idea!

10 hours ago, Occams whiskey bottle said:

That's a really interesting insight. I think for the most part that was RJ's intent. I felt he was suffering from PTSD for much of TWoT anyways. 

Interesting thought, Occams.  I actually thought it was his way of processing his time in Vietnam!

4 hours ago, Sabio said:

You never really see Rand freaking out about dying, but more of a fear he is going to hurt others.  

True, but he often references that after long whiles, he reconciled himself to his death.  He also expresses internally that he wishes to live.  When Semrihage pushed him further than a Forsaken had before he remarked that he no longer hoped he'd live, he only hoped for death.

That's some pretty depressed sentiment there.

On 3/23/2018 at 9:24 PM, TheSociopath said:

Whether or not it is of particular importance, Rand believes it is important. He is told by the finns that "to live, he must die", he gets in plenty of arguements about how he expects to die, with the various women around him. In Rand's perspective, he has been given an end date to his life.

 

Furthermore, while Rand did accept that he could channel and probably was more concerned with keeping the damage to himself, he was still forced into the realization that he most likely wouldn't live for another five years.

What TS said.  I think it's being forgotten or being played down that in the books, a man who could channel had a death sentence, either by his own hand, or the White Tower gentling them.  That is part of the reason I found correlation with the model for grief.

Ok, so I am listening to AMoL right now and another question popped into my head.  It was said that draghkar, trollocs, and other denizens of the Dark One cannot pass through gateways and live.  When Fortuona and the Seanchan return to Mat at the Last Battle, the flying creatures soared through gateways. (Which honestly, how can the Seanchan make large gateways when they can only use one damane and sul'dam as the a'dam prohibits any further linking?  That's a question unto itself!)  How did they do that and not drop dead?  It was said in multiple books, by sideways allusion, and the Forsaken that the Seanchan chained the Shadowspawn on their continent.

But that won't stop me from doing so!

Ok, so it took me over 15 years of reading and re-reading the books to realize exactly what was going on with Rand throughout the books.  Rand was going through the steps of grieving that many endure when given a diagnosis of a terminal illness.  The most popular/well known version of this is the Kübler-Ross model:

1. Denial – The first reaction is denial. In this stage, individuals believe the diagnosis is somehow mistaken, and cling to a false, preferable reality.  (Books 1, 2, and a portion of 3)

2. Anger – When the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue, they become frustrated, especially at proximate individuals.  (Definitely 4 with his - completely understandable - treatment of the Tairen Lords)

3. Bargaining – The third stage involves the hope that the individual can avoid a cause of grief. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek compromise. (Book 5 regarding the Fifth, Book 5, 6, and 7 in the various politicking he attempts)

4. Depression – During the fourth stage, the individual despairs at the recognition of their mortality. In this state, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time mournful and sullen. (I think the strongest example of this was in The Gathering Storm where the depression came to it's fore and was abused mightily by tDO)

5. Acceptance – In this last stage, individuals embrace mortality or inevitable future, or that of a loved one, or other tragic event. People dying may precede the survivors in this state, which typically comes with a calm, retrospective view for the individual, and a stable condition of emotions. (And here, as many call him: the Jesus Rand of Books 12, 13, and 14)

Many of the middle books have Rand bouncing between multiple levels of the Grief Model, so I didn't outline them here.  I encourage others to use points to prove/disprove/increase the argument for what I've put above. :)

12 hours ago, Vambram said:

 

That's about the same way that I saw it too for Min. After the Last Battle starts, what more can a seer really do?

I am afraid I must disagree with your statement, as Min was beneficial in turning around Tuon's army at the end.  Who knows what else she could have done if the generals had put her in their planning meetings.  She was utterly ignored.  If she were there, perhaps she could have told everyone the generals were being corrupted after a potential vision.

Just because she does not have military acumen, she solved milennia old riddles of ter'angreals, foresaw various important aspects of the fighting before and during AMoL, and possibly could have kept Siuan and Bryne alive as she would have still seen the aura of death around them. (I'm paraphrasing right from the book)  There could have been many things a -person who can see the future- could have done to help the armies of the Light.  Instead, they had her copy messages, and run errands.

Of all three of the women in love with Rand, she was the most underutilized, and because of that, it made me think that perhaps Sanderson wasn't fond of her.  Perhaps he just didn't know how to write her.  Perhaps both.

So I am re-listening to A Memory of Light and it hit me.  Does Brandon Sanderson dislike Min Farshaw?  After her near-death by Rand's unwilling hands, she kind of fell off the narrative map.  In A Memory of Light, Rand has very close, somewhat tender (I'm sorry, I find Sanderson's prose lacking) scenes with Aviendha and Elayne.  But not Min.  In fact, her final scene with Rand (Conscious, and in his original body) has Cadsuane in it, asking the boy what he gave Min.  Rand never answers this, either to the Aes Sedai, or to the reader.

Shortly after the woman who flipping sees visions in things is merely acting a clerk, a clumsy way (IMO) to get her to the Seanchan Empress.  In the end, it leaves me wondering if she was ignored by Sanderson because he wasn't too fond of her.  Is this the case?  Does anyone else agree?  Did he ever say anything about his opinion of my second favorite character?

Shadar, I was going to say something similar, like how the WT needs the Wondergirls; but you said it perfectly!

According to Min, the dragons that are on his skin hurt.  Elayne notes that she feels them too; [Winter's Heart] so his trial with the Aiel was with some cost.  He had to learn an entire culture in a handful of months.  And to be honest; if the trial wasn't dangerous, it wouldn't have lent him credibility with the Aiel.

I see it similar to this: much like how the test to become Aes Sedai is a test that a Dreamer could potentially fail, and Nynaeve nearly did because of her work in tWoD, so too was the test to become a clan chief was at a different level of difficulty because of how/who/what the taker was.

Rand trusted Alivia, who was basically ignored in the entire last book except at the end where she "helps Rand die".  The whole thing didn't make sense.  Alivia's great job was to...acquire some clothes, money, and a horse.  If she had gone in with Rand, would that greater power have helped?  Wouldn't that make more sense?

I love Moirraine.  I just don't understand the thought process behind who went in with Rand.  Hell, even Aviendha could have.