1 hour ago, solarz said:

 

Which is the whole point of the Three Oaths in the first place. Aes Sedai cannot betray their words just as normal people cannot channel. It's meant to be a balance to their power.

 

Think about it this way, what would Rand have done if Aes Sedai were not bound by their oaths? He would not have been satisfied with an oath of fealty then, and would likely have sent the Salidar AS to the Wise Ones along with the Tower AS.

 

For three thousand years the world saw the White Tower as a monolithic entity, and the Tower was careful to cultivate that view. It would have been unrealistic to expect Rand, the Asha'man, or the Aiel, to distinguish between Aes Sedai factions.

 

Like the old saying says, "Aes Sedai do what they do for their own reasons, and those reasons are not what they first seem to be." Rand most likely suspected that those AS might have rescued him from other AS as part of some convoluted plan to put strings on him.

The Salidar Aes Sedai did become Wise Ones Apprentices

And we're back to being punished because they're Aes Sedai, I don't think Rand thought the Salidar Aes Sedai were working with the Tower Aes Sedai

And if you want to judge people by groups; Perrin should never have trusted Galad, the dragonsworn band of the red hand should have been treated the same as the diving bands of murderers, the Salidar Aes Sedai were right to hold Rand responsible for the Aiel attack on them etc etc etc

Given Jaks points about situational context that Rand was lashing out it's 'understandable' it wasn't 'right' 

1 hour ago, solarz said:

 

Oaths of fealty are meant to be followed. That's why they're oaths. If it's wrong for Rand to require oaths from the Salidar Aes Sedai, then it would be equally wrong for him to require it from, say, the High Lords of Tear.

 

Randland is a feudal society. Oaths of fealty are part of the political process. You might argue that feudalism itself is wrong, but that would be rather irrelevant to the series.

Yes and no

My initial posts basically said that I can understand why the Tower Aes Sedai (given the context of a defeated enemy) had to swear, but I don't follow the same reasoning with the Salidar Aes Sedai (essentially allies who fought to rescue him)

So while I disagree with the oath from any Aes Sedai I can follow/accept it to an extent in the context of the society and given the power/strength of Aes Sedai it makes logical sense

But an oath from an Aes Sedai isn't the same as from someone who hasn't sworn on the oath rod. For example a collared and broken Aes Sedai still cannot use the power as a weapon despite wanting to. The ferret in the Tower was choking when being forced to lie etc. For anyone else it's words that can be broken, obviously their are consequences, but it's regarding future trustworthiness or similar, it's different for an Aes Sedai beyond whether the type of oath itself is acceptable or not

Clue is: it's a thing

Apologies for the drawing lol

Triple toe loop jump?

Toe loop jump?

@jack of shadows to be clear, I don't think you're wrong on any of it, as in yes it was bad timing and rands actions are understandable etc etc etc, it's just still ~wrong, as in rands actions, that oath are fundamentally wrong no matter how understandable it is

Topic split from favourite scenes :)

@jack of shadows you're not distinguishing between the tower Aes Sedai and the Salidar Aes Sedai. The Tower Aes Sedai locked him in a box and beat him daily. The Salidar Aes Sedai tried to rescue him. I have issues with that oath at all from an Aes Sedai, but can understand it for the Tower Sedai (defeated for that have a lit of power and can't be trusted), but the Salidar Sedai are different (Perrin accepted them as allies) 

Effectively you're saying what I started saying, they were being punished because they were Aes Sedai (although you're adding bad timing)

And of course Rand's flawed, he's a well written character :P it doesn't make him 'right'

And I don't mean they were compulsed to swear, I mean the oath of fealty is a mild form of compulsion. Think what happened to one of the tower ferrets (I forget the name) when they were ordered to lie having sworn to always tell the truth and obey orders.

Still contractually obliged to support the Patriots ldo, and also that's the only team I know

5 minutes ago, solarz said:

 

I disagree. Rand trusted them to do what he ordered. Min told him so.

 

Rand trusted Alanna to send her out on some tasks (I forget what). He trusted Merana to make a deal with the Sea Folk.

 

He clearly trusted those AS enough to let them help him with his work.

He trusted Min though, not the fealty. I guess there's an argument as to whether she'd have had the same viewing without the oath

14 minutes ago, solarz said:

 

We can debate whether it's morally wrong to force Aes Sedai to swear fealty, but it's hard to argue that it was a mistake for Rand.

 

After all, this gave Rand a core of loyal channelers with which he accomplished a number of key things. He could not have cleansed Saidin, for example, without those loyal Aes Sedai to guard him.

Except Rand didn't trust them, in that example they were only there because of Cadsuane

He didn't know what to do with them, their presence destabilized the aiel (when they thought he was being controlled by them) and in the end handed the Aes Sedai to the wise ones. 

They could have been a good resource, but weren't really utilised (maybe the deal with the sea folk?) In the end he trusted the Aes Sedai that he 'knew'; nynaeve, elayne, egwene, moiraine and very few beyond

And regardless of how much use they could have been that doesn't necessarily justify the moral problems

On 05/11/2017 at 11:43 PM, yossicu said:

@bfg,

 

do you remember when rand killed all the trollocs inside the stone of

tear with callandor,moiraine stopped lan from approaching rand?

kiruna(and the rest of them)didn't bother,didn't stop even for one

second to realise how precarious and dangerous the whole situation was,

kiruna assumed that being aes sedai would protect them from anything,

"you forget who we are",unfortunatelly(for them) rand didn't forget anything,

the fact is,the salidar embassy paid a price for their stupidity,all

they had to do was wait a few hours for things to calm down,and then

approach rand,but no,they of course couldn't wait,this aes sedai(typical)

entitlement attitude proved to be their downfall.

one last thing,rand didn't consider the salidar embassy as allies.like

i said in my previous post,even before dumai's wells,they didn't give rand

any reasons to trust them,and perception is everything,especially when you are the boss.

This is one of those times when I fundamentally disagree but struggle to explain why

You say they weren't allies, but they were. Perrin accepted their help on Rands behalf. And at the start of the battle their help was needed, they didn't know that the Ashaman would turn up and if they hadn't perrin would have lost without their help. Obviously the Aes Sedai weren't all noble, they had good and bad reasons to help, mostly selfish lol

And yes it was bad timing, but I don't really agree that's acceptable from a leader, or maybe if you accept that leaders are flawed, it was ~still a ~mistake

As I say, fundamentally it's a huge societal structural change, and it's needed, but it gave me chills

For all the reasons it's wrong of elaida and egwene to demand fealty of Aes Sedai, it's wrong of Rand, it's effectively a form of compulsion if a very weak version of it and it's enforced by Taim 

Hmmm, the above makes little sense but I'll think and try to explain what I mean better

 

Dogs are always immune in Hollywood... I think I've seen one exception but I cant remember the film

 

Tuk-tuks were pulled into the tornado, but a dog was able to hind under a table?

 

Sounds completely plausible

Dogs are always immune in Hollywood... I think I've seen one exception but I cant remember the film

Don't get me wrong, Aes Sedai society is deeply flawed and needs to change. And at an individual level the Aes Sedai involved are flawed

Abd what happened is more or less foretold so it's not exactly surprising, nor is it surprising in context

But fundamentally this is Aes Sedai being ~punished because they're Aes Sedai

In the setting we're in fealty isn't unusual, and victors generally get it from the defeated foe, but the salidar Aes Sedai aren't a defeated foe, they were allies. They fought their Sisters to rescue Rand (admittedly with maybe less than pure motives)

And fealty from Sisters isn't the same as fealty from someone else, words aren't just words with them. The moral issues with the oaths given to Egwene and by the salidar spies exist here as well

And what happens doesn't inherently improve anything, you're replacing one institution that rules through power with another, except the new one gas no experience ruling and is (understandably) inherently untrusting of the old one

I guess to an extent you could argue that it shows the strengths of some individual sisters in how they work through it and how much they believe that they are 'servants'

That's a grumpy face xD

The word you're looking for is grumpy

*sneaks out

 

 

Oh it was disturbing when the Asha’man started making the Shaido ‘splash’ when they lifted the shield. I could understand everyone wanting to vomit at that point.

 

The scope of it all is what I enjoyed. Not necessarily the battle but the suspense of it about to go down. When all the forces are coalescing together. The wolves, the shaido, the Aes Sedai walking into battle and then th Asha’man showing up. It was pretty epic.

It's not actually the destruction, to an extent that's expected with battle, it's the 'kneel or you will be knelt'. As a line it changes everything, but the implications are disturbing

Honestly, that didn’t bother me a whole lot. By that point I was glad the Aes Sedai were being ‘taken down a notch’ so to speak.

That was my initial reaction lol

Oh it was disturbing when the Asha’man started making the Shaido ‘splash’ when they lifted the shield. I could understand everyone wanting to vomit at that point.

 

The scope of it all is what I enjoyed. Not necessarily the battle but the suspense of it about to go down. When all the forces are coalescing together. The wolves, the shaido, the Aes Sedai walking into battle and then th Asha’man showing up. It was pretty epic.

It's not actually the destruction, to an extent that's expected with battle, it's the 'kneel or you will be knelt'. As a line it changes everything, but the implications are disturbing

I think I'm the only person that was a little disturbed by Dumais Wells, it's a powerful scene, but I can't say I find it enjoyable

I think I'm still contractually obliged to support the Pats

\o/

Think Teslyns on 3?

Kill Verin

Hurt verin