How is Mat going to fulfill his role as the Prince of Ravens? After Tuon accepted their marriage she announced that he was the new Prince of Ravens but then just left without any explanation after that

There is foreshadowing that Mat might be bonded to Tuon/Fortuana. That should be on the radar screen as well. If that happens, it will be a coup in the Seanchan Empire.

After the Last Battle, the White Tower might have to rethink its current Ajah structure. Two areas that will require immediate attention are:

- Recruitment of female and male channelers on a systematic basis in all of Randland.

- Items of Power: search for items and research of new ones

Other areas that might require attention are education, health, construction, and traveling issues for the general population. And all need considerable number of Aes Sedai stationed in major cities or kingdoms to provide those services.

LoC (38: A Sudden Chill):

 

Nynaeve appeared in the doorway so suddenly she seemed to pop out of the air. Planting her fists on her hips, she stared at Mat. "What are yo doing here, Matrim Cauthon? How did you get here? I suppose it's too much to hope you have anything to do with the army of Dragonsworn that's about to descend on us."

 

"Actually," he said dryly, "I am in command."

..

..

..

"I said listen!" He poked a finger at Elayne. "You, I'm taking back to Caemlyn, if I can keep Aviendha from killing you. If you don't want that pretty throat slit, you stay close to me and do what I say, no question!" The finger shifted to Egwene. "Rand says he'll send you back to the Wise Ones whenever you want, and if what I've seen so far is any indication what you get up to, my advice is to take him up on it NOW! It seems you know how to Travel" - Egwene gave a small start - "so you can make a gateway to Caemlyn for the Band. I don't want any argument, Egwene! And you, Nynaeve! I ought to leave you here, but if you want to come, you can. Only, I'm warning you. You yank that braid at me just once, and I swear, I'll warm your bottom!"

..

..

"Now . When the poor blind fool they've chosen out for their Amyrlin gets here, I will do the talking. She can't be very bright, or the'd never have been able to shove her into the job. Amyrlin Sear for a bloody village in the middle of bloody nowhere. You keep your mouths Shut and curtsy for all you're worth, and I'll pull you bacon off hte coals again."

..

..

"Close your mouth before you catch flies, Mat," Nynaeve said in tones of deepest satisfaction.

LoC (39: Possibilities)

 

"Listen, you can still get out of this. If they think you're the Amyrlin, you can come out with me to ... to inspect the Band. You make a gateway, and we'll be gone before this bunch of goat-brained lunatics can blink."

..

..

He grinned at her insolently, and the way he eyed her up and down, he was lucky Elayne didn't slap him hard enough to loosen all his teeth. "You, my fine Lady, I am taking back to Caemlyn if I have to tie you up in a package to hand to Rand, burn me if I don't. And I will bloody well leave when I choose." His bow was mocking, to Elayne and to Egwene. Nynaeve got only a glower and another shake of his finger.

Always cracks me up when I read it.

I enjoyed reading their reunion in Far Madding. It was one of the few scenes where I liked Alanna. "Light, man, Let us help you!" was just an awesome line.

 

I too, enjoyed that part, but we all know when an Aes Sedia says" let us help you", Its what she thinks He needs help in and that could go as far as shielding Rand, trying to control him and leash him for the Last Battle..cause only an Aes Sedia knows what to do and how to do it, right?

In general WoT terms, your statement is true. But I really believe Alanna was purely honest in that meeting and wanted to help Rand. The evidence is that she followed his orders to go to Merana in Tear to help negotiate the end to the rebellion without argument. And from that moment on; Alanna wasn't seen as interfering with Rand or even helping to do that. She was simply trying to help him and follow his orders.

Without the taint and LTT-induced madness, Rand's mind is a mess! He has 4 women bonded to him and feels them constantly. Poor guy!

Anyway, I don't think Alanna would have removed the bond whatever the threat; because in the end, Rand would pay the price. Strangely, I enjoyed reading their reunion in Far Madding. It was one of the few scenes where I liked Alanna. "Light, man, Let us help you!" was just an awesome line.

I think that reading this reunion gives some good insight about Alanna and the bond to Rand. It is a very interesting scene.

Lying there in his blankets, he stared northward. He could not feel al’Thor, now; the distance between them was too great. Or perhaps al’Thor was doing his vanishing trick. Sometimes, in the keep, the boy had suddenly vanished from Fain’s senses. He did not know how, but always al’Thor came back, just as suddenly as he had gone. He would come back this time, too.

Wasn't this referring to the incident where Lanfear teleports Rand, Loial, and Hurin to the mirror world via the portal stone? That is how he went off Fain's radar (I think).

"Vanin! Where on the Dark One's blistering backside are we?"

Thanks for the reference. And the answer is "We don't know."

 

But how could the 3 AS miss the weaves. They don't have to see the weaving. They could figure it out from seeing the weaves when they stepped through it. Otherwise, why did Aviendha "unweave" her gateway in Ebou Dar? And why did Elayne do the same to deny the Seanchan Traveling.

 

I'm missing something here!

 

Not only does Avi have the talent to read Ter'angreal but she also has the talent to read weave residues and recreate them, sometimes days after, that's why Elayne did what she did. They couldn't take the chance that one of the damane chasing them also had such a talent. Picking the weave apart leaves no residue.

Without that talent, you need to see the actual weaving to learn it.

Give Elayne's PoV in tPoD chapter 2 a quick scan.

 

It's reasonable to assume that none of Joline, Teslyn or Edesina have that talent and that Verin wove the gateway outside of their viewing.

Thanks for the clarification. And that now means that Verin refused to teach the 3 AS how to Travel. Seeing that lost talent, they would have begged Verin to teach them; but she refused! Interesting.

Thanks for the reference. And the answer is "We don't know."

But how could the 3 AS miss the weaves. They don't have to see the weaving. They could figure it out from seeing the weaves when they stepped through it. Otherwise, why did Aviendha "unweave" her gateway in Ebou Dar? And why did Elayne do the same to deny the Seanchan Traveling.

I'm missing something here!

Regarding Joline, Teslyn, and Edesina not Traveling to Tar Valon, I expected them to learn Traveling from Verin when she transported Mat and the Band to Caemlyn. Why didn't they learn Traveling? Did Verin invert the weaves? Has this been discussed earlier and where?

Why did Moridin not appear at the cleansing and trying to stop it? Part of his plan?

We don't have a definitive answer for that but it is something Demandred took note of when Moridin gave the orders about it in chapter 13.

Who would have thought that 5 of the "Chosen" would fail at stopping Rand cleansing Saidin?

But I wonder if the timeline for the cleansing corresponds with the events in Seanchan and the slaughter of the Imperial family. I am under the impression that Semirhage wasn't at the cleansing as well. So, I think she and Moridin were doing their thing in Seanchan while Rand was removing the taint.

Here is the text of this "encounter" between Perrin and Rand:

"Rand, the Aes Sedai ... " A smart man would let this lie, probably. He had never claimed to be particularly smart, though. "The Wise Ones are ready to skin them alive, or near enough. You can't let them be harmed, Rand." In the corridor, Sulin turned to study him through the doorway.

 

The man he thought he knew laughed, a wheezing sound. "We all have to take risks," He repeated.

 

"I won't let them be hurt, Rand."

 

Cold blue eyes met his gaze. "You won't let it?"

 

"I won't," Perrin told him levelly. He did not flinch from that stare, either. "They are prisoners, and no threat. They're women."

 

"They are Aes Sedai." Rand's voice was so like Aram's back at Dumai's Wessl that it nearly took Perrin's breath.

 

"Rand ..."

 

"I do what I have to do, Perrin." For a moment he was the old Rand, not liking what was happening. For a moment he looked tired to death. A moment only. Then he was the new Rand again, hard enough to mark steel. "I won't harm any Aes Sedai who doesn't deserve it. Perrin. I can't promise more. Since you don't want the army, I can use you elsewhere. Just as well, rally. I wish I could let you rest longer than a day or two, but I can't. There's no time. No time, and we must do what we must. Forgive me for interrupting you." He stretched a bow, one hand on the hilt of his sword. "Faile."

Perrin did nothing about the treatment, despite seeing them get beaten and worked in manual labor that broke their arrogance. He didn't even interfere when Edarra and the other Wise Ones that went with him (not followed him) had their two apprentice Aes Sedai punished.

This despite Rand only promising not to hurt an Aes Sedai that doesn't deserve it (meaning he promised to hurt the Aes Sedai that deserved being hurt).

It was a confrontation; but I think Perrin thought better or it later; or backed down when he saw that Rand wasn't going to kill/torture them all.

Again, the point is that Perrin stood up for these women prisoners then went around and delivered 200+ women channelers to a life of slavery and inhumane treatment (for those women unbound by the oath rod, that is a century or three of damane life!).

But I don't think that was 'going against the DR'. It was telling your friend you think he's doing something wrong, and it doesn't take any special effort or courage. 'Going against him' would be saying so in public and getting into a fight.

A confrontation doesn't have to be in public. It could be a confrontation even if only the two were present. Perrin's words were challenging Rand, who was wise enough to take it in stride and not turn it into a conflict.

In any case, the issue was that Perrin was so concerned about women prisoners and their treatment that he challenged Rand and put down his foot with "I won't let them be hurt;" while later he handed the Seanchan more than 200 women for a lifetime of slavery and degrading treatment as beasts and animals.

Compare that with Rand's meeting with Tuon where he refused to budge on allowing the Seanchan to leash more women; and with Mat's actions freeing Sea Folk windfinders and rescuring Aes Sedai from the Lion's Den.

Don't know if this meets the requirement of "simple question" but I don't feel like it's important enough for its own thread. Re-reading LoC, in Ch 1 there is mention of a young Aes Sedai who fled Caemlyn when Rand took over. Is there any clue as to who she is, or is she just a random character? After thinking about it, I thought maybe she was one of Liandrin's Black Ajah that was assigned a task back in aFoH by Moghedien because some of them aren't mentioned again after that, but I don't remember any of those Black Ajah ever being said that they don't have the Ageless face yet.

I think she was the one Rahvin caught and compelled. You see her in one of his scenes, as far as I can recall.

I think she is the young Red Ajah advisor who hasn't achieved the "ageless face" yet that Elaida sent to Caemlyn. Rahvin had her under control and was using her to send the information he wanted back to the WT.

A couple of points I feel I need to make:

(a) Perrin and Rand's confrontation was planned between the two of them, so no one would wonder where Perrin went to and what he's doing. It got away from them, true, but it was planned nonetheless.

The confrontation between Perrin and Rand over the Aes Sedai is different from the one they faked to send Perrin to Ghealden. The first occured in CoS, "Old Fear, and New Fear (6)" Where Perrin tells Rand that the Aes Sedai are women and prisoners and that he "won't let them be hurt."

Thanks for the clarification, Taryn!

That is a close "domestic" example of Perrin's relationship with Faile. But in the books, he puts his wife ahead of the fate of the world; his duty towards the people he's leading; the welfare of people who need help; and the orders he received from Rand.

The sad thing with Perrin is that it didn't start after Faile's abduction by the Shaido. It goes back to the Battle of the Two Rivers. Before the big Trolloc charge and in the week prior to it, Perrin worked to smuggle Faile out of Emond's Field. Reading that, I was wondering why Perrin didn't try to sneak out small groups of women and children to safety. Why did he keep the children in Emond's Field while trying to see Faile safely away from the battle?

After Rand's return to Cairhien from Dumai Wells, we see Faile as a "Lady in Attendance" of Queen Colavaere. Rand analyzed the pair correctly.

He (Rand) studied him (Perrin) longest, and took the longest time to nod to him to follow him towards the throne. And Perrin's thoughts were, "No one was going to harm Faile, no matter what she had done, no matter why. No matter what he had to do to stop it."

Rand's thoughts on Faile in CoS "Pitfalls and Tripwires (7)" were: "Perrin, and Faile. A fierce woman, falcon by name and nature. Had she relly attached herself to Colavaere just to gather evidence? She would try to protect Perrin if the Dragon Reborn fell. Protect him from the Dragon Reborn, should she decide it necessary; her loyalties were to Perrin; but she would decide for herself how to meet them. Faile was no woman to do meekly as her husband told her, if such a woman existed."

Faile's loyalty was to Perrin and Perrin's was to her first and foremost.

I know one guy whose favorite character is Perrin; course, in real life he falls under this category, as put forth by Theodril:

 

Blind following of his wife to a degree that almost erases his individual identity...

 

 

If you have ever met anyone like this, or have become friends with a person who devotes themselves to no one but their significant other, then you can see why it would be rough to read.

 

Sorry, Taryn! I'm totally lost on the above; and would appreciate a clarification or simpler phrasing.

Whenever I read about the TP, I cannot help but wonder how much of the taint Nynaeve saw engulfing Rand's mind is from using the TP and how much is from Saidin? I would think that using the TP would somehow "extinguish" the Light in a mind and turn that person, or move him closer, to the Shadow.

What did you want Perrin to do with the Shaido wise ones?

Did Perrin have the ability to capture and contain 200 pissed off channelers with his army. No he did not.

Should he have let them go? Now you have 200 angry channlers behind you. That kind of idea gets you killed.

 

So that really leaves two options, Let the Seanchan have them or while they are drugged out on forkroot stick a sword in them.

 

So option 1: Give them to the Seanchan and let them become Damane

Option 2: Mass murder 200 helpless women.

 

Which should he have chosen?

 

I always like Perrin. I didnt love the Faile chase but i didnt loath it either.

And he redeamed himself as soon as he cut the shaido's hand off.

There were other possible alternatives if we're to speculate. I would divide the prisoners into 2 halves: channelers and warriors. Let the Seanchan have the warriors and non-channelers among the Shaido. And let Perrin's Wise One's handle the Shaido channelers. Notice that some Shaido Wise Ones cannot channel and can go to the Seanchan. But this is the extreme case.

My bargain would be to cleanse Seanchan land of Shaido and take the prisoners in exchange for Tylee's help. She can go back with the victory; but not the prisoners.

Perrin's problem in the books is his moral decay. To me, it was a deep decline. And only towards the end of ToM does he start to redeem himself.

- Willingness to allow the Seanchan to leash 200+ damane compared to Rand rejecting the idea in his meeting with Tuon and Mat's whole AS-savior arc.

- Willingness to allow So Harbor to suffer and denying Aes Sedai the chance to help the people. I just cannot fathom that much indifference to human suffering.

- Valuing one human's life over others: Using the people that followed him for a personal objective; even when it led to the deaths of many.

- Blind following of his wife to a degree that almost erases his individual identity: as opposed to Mat's awesome farewell words to Tuon and his standing up to Elayne on the Band's freedom; and opposed to Rand's near obsession with independence and self assertion.

- Neglect of responsibility to his people and his commander

He is a ta'veren who pulls threads from the pattern to him and to serve his intended goal. To me, that translated into the pattern pulling threads to turn Perrin's blunders into an overall gain towards TG. And so in the end, it turned out well for the story and plot; but the moral issues cannot be erased.

Like and dislike of characters is what being a reader is about. And everyone is entitled to liking or disliking certain aspects of a character. Any reader can say that as that is a reader's right.

But when we discuss or argue a character's actions, that is where interpretation of events and textual evidence and reference comes into play. If X character is vilified for a certain act, thought, or expression and Y character is excused for that same thing when the circumstances are similar, then we'll have an argument.

And sometimes, a reader can excuse his favorite character for some actions that the same reader finds abhorrent when done by another character. And when the fans of this other character defend him or her, the discussion tends to drag.

Anyway, there are many ways to interpret and read a character or an event. And therein lies the beauty of the story and writing. I might never convince you that Egwene is a strong and powerfully written character; and you'll probably never convince me that she's a power-hungry bitch. But at least each we can try and have a nice discussion on the virtues and vices of character without turning it into a personal affront or a shouting match.

One of the problems I've noticed in discussing Egwene and other character is mixing reader feelings with critical reading and fan analysis of actions. That occasionally leads to different scales to weigh characters: lenient scales with full understanding and sympathy for favorite characters, and harsh, no-quarter, no understanding scales for hated characters. It would be nice if we can agree to judge character actions by one scale.

Regardless, the books make it clear that no one can break a circle of 13. So, Egwene could have held Rand captive if she wanted to.

 

I, on the other hand, just assumed that Egwene was subconsciously recognizing that the pattern would not allow that, not that she actually thought that Rand could break through shielding by 26 sisters. I mean, if she tried to give the order, who knows what would have happened? Perhaps a chunk of poorly repaired ceiling would break and hit her in the head, knocking her out. Perhaps all 26 sisters would spontaneously decide to swear fealty to the Dragon (or maybe just the two leading the circles).

 

Exactly. We already have evidence of that sort of twisting of the Pattern, with Cads. Egwene could not have held him.

Wonderful. On the one hand we have textual evidence that a circle of 13 can hold any channeler; and we have LTT in the box and prior to that raving mad against a circle of 13 as impossible to break. And on the other, that is brushed aside; and we have your assumption that Egwene was afraid that pattern would intervene to prevent her from holding him. You don't even consider Egwene's thoughts on why she shouldn't hold him (hypocrisy after what she told Elaida).

You cannot fathom the idea that Egwene let him go of her own free will because she trusted him to show up at the meeting to discuss his plan. And that despite the text pointing in that direction. Amazing that to some people, the woman can do no right no matter what!

- Egwene had Rand shielded and surrounded by hundreds of Aes Sedai. If she wanted to stop him right away, she could have kept him in the WT. She had a strong justification since he announced that he'll break the seals. I don't think A.S. would have objected to that.

 

She doesn't think so. She said so explicitly.

 

She said it so to Silviana, a Red, to justify letting him go. The laws governing the OP in the books state clearly that a circle of 13 maintained by the 13 will shield any male channeler and cannot be broken. Rand's time in Galina's box is another proof. That's how I understand the issue. If it doesn't work that way, I'd like to read more on it.

 

So she lied? Interesting. Logically, it follows that she must be Black. I thought you liked Egwene?

The Sitters pulled themselves to their feet, shaken. Silviana leaned down. "You're right, Mother. He can't be allowed to break the seals. But what are we to do? If you won't hold him captive . . ."

 

 

"I doubt we could have held him," Egwene said. "There's something about him. I . . . I had the sense he could have broken that shield without a struggle."

With Rand not still out of Tar Valon, Silviana is wondering why Egwene won't hold him captive if she doesn't want him to break the seals. Egwene gives a trademark Aes Sedai answer. It wasn't a lie.

"I had a sense he could have broken that shield without a struggle." applies if the thought entered her head (under his ta'veren effect) before being rejected as impossible.

That is different from "He could have broken through the shield without difficulty."

And we know that the oath against lying doesn't prevent an AS from saying something she believes is true (e.g. Meidani, ferret, when asked by Perava to deny that the Reds set up false dragons).

Regardless, the books make it clear that no one can break a circle of 13. So, Egwene could have held Rand captive if she wanted to.

- Egwene had Rand shielded and surrounded by hundreds of Aes Sedai. If she wanted to stop him right away, she could have kept him in the WT. She had a strong justification since he announced that he'll break the seals. I don't think A.S. would have objected to that.

 

She doesn't think so. She said so explicitly.

She said it so to Silviana, a Red, to justify letting him go. The laws governing the OP in the books state clearly that a circle of 13 maintained by the 13 will shield any male channeler and cannot be broken. Rand's time in Galina's box is another proof. That's how I understand the issue. If it doesn't work that way, I'd like to read more on it.

When it comes to judging Egwene's reaction to Rand's plan-under construction, I think we should take into account what she didn't do. And I think we should take into account the faith Rand showed into coming into the WT in the first place.

- Egwene changed her perception during the meeting from talking to the Dragon (to be feared) to talking to Rand (to be trusted with the fate of the world).

- Egwene had Rand shielded and surrounded by hundreds of Aes Sedai. If she wanted to stop him right away, she could have kept him in the WT. She had a strong justification since he announced that he'll break the seals. I don't think A.S. would have objected to that. So, Egwene trusts Rand enough to show up in the Field of Merrilor and convince her that his plan will work.

- Rand came to the WT with a premeditated intent to rile up Egwene enough to have her gather what she perceives as opposition in a month's time. Yet, he had enough faith in himself and Egwene that the meeting will not lead to any unexpected negative developments, which was the case.