Thanks, Finnssss, for the heroes ages.

A technical question.....

I am reading TEotW on my Kindle Fire. I had written notes, dozens of them, over the first third of the book. But when I opened the book to read today, it opened to the first page. I closed the book and reopened it .... and was shocked to see that my notes just disappeared. Is there anyway I can get those back?

I dont think anyone is arguing that Mat isnt a better tactician and strategist than Perrin is.

He has a little help though.

Mat knows how a seige is going to go because he has been through 100s of them, on both sides.

He knows how to set up a battlefield because he has been through 100s of battles, both as high ranking and as grunt force.

Bashere is one of the Great Captains and he is astonded by Mat's abilities to set up a force.

These are gifts that were given to him, not things that he is just good at.

Hardly fair to put the two of them against each other in that.

I think that 1 on 1 Mat would beat Perrin in a fight if they had to, i think just strait 1 on 1 combat he would beat most.

 

But in Tel'aran'rhiod Perrin would own Mat. That is a talent he has. Perhaps they could compete in a "talking to wolves" competition.

 

Mat being a better General than Perrin does not mean that he has accomplished more. Which perhaps he has, but Perrins accomplishments are no small potatoes.

 

And yes, all the accomplishments do count for Perrin, even if he was single minded in his need to rescue his wife. They happened, they count.

Most of Mat's stuff he didnt plan. It just happened whether he wanted it or not. Much like his early battle victories, he was trying to run away from the fighting but his "Luck" seemed to put him in a position where he would was forced to fight, and win.

Safwd, my post was in response to BC's comparison between Mat and Perrin and the logic of the comparison. Your response to my post has nothing to do with what I was trying to convey; as it implies that I do not acknowledge Perrin's achievements, which I cited and acknowledged fairly in accordance with how I read his character.

But I would like to comment on your comparison of Mat's a Perrin's "gifts." Mat has his luck, his battle memories, and his ter'angreal. Perrin has the wolves, TAR, and sensing people's emotions through smell. All 6 gifts are important and serve their purposes. And overall, they are balanced.

Finally, Mat is a better tactician and strategist because of his memories. But he is also a better leader for embracing his role, and for his willingness to sacrifice himself for others. If you follow Mat's arch carefully, you will see how he does more for others, strives to help others, and sacrifices himself for other people; rather than use them. Can you cite examples where Mat is using people like Rand or Perrin?

Regarding ages, the 3 ta'veren are in their 23rd year; so is Aviendha. Nynaeve is 27; and Egwene and Elayne have their 21st birthdays coming up. Is that right or wrong?

Mat's role is a catalyst much more than Perrin's. Every accomplishment he has done basically requires him to be in the right place at the right time, but that is his special power. At pretty much any time with him, if all the pieces were there but he wasn't, nothing would of happened. He can do a lot more because he pretty much just has to stand there looking pretty and let the situation come to him. That doesn't discount his importance though, if he wasn't there, Tar Valon would still be broken, the bowl of the Winds would still be lost, Thom would have drunk himself to death, Nyn and Elayne would be dead by gholam.

 

Perrin on the other hand has to work for his money. So he has less accomplished, but what he has done is raise a substantial army that wouldn't be there otherwise, given Rand a strong backing in the BT by giving a backbone to the TR channelers, destroyed the Shaido and cleaned up the dragonsworn problem. These things are important, but required a lot more work on his part and so they are demonstrably less than what Mat has done.

Do intentions count? Does planning count? Because when it comes to Perrin's achievements cited above, my reading is that his sole purpose and goal was to rescue Faile. The rest to him was secondary ... "collateral" achievements. Perrin working for his money started after he forged his hammer. His rescue of Galad and the WC's is his achievement. And his upcoming actions vis-a-vis the BT (dreamspike) and the Field of Merrilor will be credited to him.

And way before the Faile capture, his defense of the Two Rivers was as heroic as you can get. And to a lesser extent, his rescue of Rand in Dumai Wells is worthy. But in between the Dumai Wells and rescuing Galad, Perrin was obsessed with Faile's rescue at any cost.

As to Mat, depicting him as just being there for things to fall in place is grossly unrepresentative of post-healing Mat. I've always read him after being healed from the dagger as the man Rand and others turn to for "special operations." He tried to resist his fate till Rand shook him and told him to quit trying to run away. But he wasn't a "pretty" who needed to stand on a street corner for events to fall in place.

- Mat's mission to deliver Elayne's letter to Morgase exposed Gaebril to Rand

- Mat's mission to save Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne in Tear was a pro-active initiative that preserved some very important threads for Rand.

- Mat's military genius in stopping Rahvin's expansion into Cairhien, and turning Rahvin's forces back, set in motion another sequence of events that were central to Rand's cause.

- Mat's part in Rand's Illian plan (which was mostly Mat's plan with Rand and Bashere nodding) and marching the Band to Tear was a mission

- Mat's mission to Salidar showed that Rand turned to him when he needed something important done. And it gave Egwene an excuse to start mobilizing for the siege of Tar Valon

- Mat's role in the Bowl of Winds (as you pointed out) was central to the mission's success.

- Mat's planning and conducting of the Great Escape as well as the escape from Ebou Dar is a prolonged story of his ta'vernness, genius, and tenacity.

- Mat's attrition campaign against the Seanchan is legendary in its results

- Mat's epic battles against the golam show how he plans and carries out difficult mission.

- Mat's rescue of Moiraine (giving up half the light to save the world) would never have happened without his planning, luck, and determination.

Mat is the "son of battles, trickster, gambler." He relies on his ta'veren nature and on his luck. But his planning, dedication, honor, and sense of responsibility outshine Perrin's by a long shot. It isn't fair to put those two in the same category of leaders, tacticians, and strategists.

Thanks, Suttree. That's the type of source I wanted.

You can rely on Suttree to put on the table the "evidence" to sway many a discussion.

There will be no more treekiller flipskirts scratching at your tentflap Rand al' Thor.

 

Aviendha.

 

Priceless.

+1

The Rand - Aviendha relationship was the most lively to read. It is my favorite of his three romances. And I look forward to seeing how both reconnect in AMoL.

Fine, your right.

Mat did accomplish more than Perrin. Which is fine by me, Mat is my favorite character.

 

And Perrin did go through his personnal growth slower than Mat but the whole freaking story talks about how Perrin gets to things slower than most people from day one. Should have come as no surprise that Leadership would have come slower as well.

 

Touche! I never looked at it from that angle. I'l have to concede that point to you fully.

Perrin taking his time to accept his leadership role is a minor issue. The really big issue with him is his moral decay during Faile's kidnapping. He was willing to enslave Shaido Wise Ones for life to save Faile (200 Wise Ones were collared); which by the way gives the Seanchan a formidable group of battle channelers not bound by the 3 oaths. And he used the resources allocated to him to save Faile, using others to do and getting them killed to achieve his personal thingie.

Worst of all is how he just lost it when Faile was captured. One of the Wise Ones with him told him to get a grip on himself and quit acting like a fool. But he was so shell-shocked and out of it, not bathing for days, acting obsessively about the issue. He was the epitome of a failed leader. He pretty much forgot about his followers and only thought of them as tools to rescue Faile. He didn't even have the decency to give Aes Sedai permission to try and help the people of So Harbor when he could afford to let them stay for a few hours.

I would almost think killing would be the rarest, since there does not seem to be full on wars among the aiel but rather small skirmishes, during which one clan will try to prove superiority by capturing not killing

Here is the quote:

TSR: Beyond the Stone

 

With a nod to Moiraine, Amys began. "I will follow the line of gai'shain simply. In the dance of the spears, the most ji, honor, is earned by touching an armed enemy without killing, or harming in any way."

 

"The most honor because it is so difficult," Seana said, bluish gray eyes crinkling wryly, "and thus so seldom done."

 

"The smallest honor comes from killing," Amys continued." A child or a fool can kill. In between is the taking of a captive. ...."

Just wanted to say, to the guys comparing the Aiel and their wars. Remember, War between clans, the greatest honor came from touching not killing right? I bet with all the raids and wars in the Waste, not many people died. Sure they've been fighting each other for hundreds of years, but not killing too often.

 

But that honor is the most difficult to achieve and the rarest kind. So, more people were killed in Aiel fighting than you believe.

 

I've with you on the most difficult to achieve, but where did you get the rarest kind part?

I don't remember the exact quote; but I think it was part of explaining ji'e'toh to Moiraine and Egwene in TSR.

Just wanted to say, to the guys comparing the Aiel and their wars. Remember, War between clans, the greatest honor came from touching not killing right? I bet with all the raids and wars in the Waste, not many people died. Sure they've been fighting each other for hundreds of years, but not killing too often.

 

But that honor is the most difficult to achieve and the rarest kind. So, more people were killed in Aiel fighting than you believe.

also the multiple wives option gave more flexibility when it comes to sustaining/growing the population

+1

Just wanted to say, to the guys comparing the Aiel and their wars. Remember, War between clans, the greatest honor came from touching not killing right? I bet with all the raids and wars in the Waste, not many people died. Sure they've been fighting each other for hundreds of years, but not killing too often.

But that honor is the most difficult to achieve and the rarest kind. So, more people were killed in Aiel fighting than you believe.

Never thought I'd post a Cenn Buie quote; but I found one on Nynaeve after she called the Village Council a bunch of dimwits.

TEotW: The Gleeman

 

"That young woman wants a husband," Cenn Buie growled, bouncing on his toes.

Two of my favorites are in my signature. Another is Thom's response to Furyk Karede in KoD: "I am a gleeman, a position higher than court bard to be sure, but no general."

"Under an Oak" is my favorite chapter in the whole series so far. And I could cite more quotes from it; but that might end up with me typing the whole chapter!

Well, I get your point. I keep my ground though. I still think that Perrin was the one with less resources to do what he had to, but well it's just an opinion and it seems like I won't persuade you :P

By resources, do you mean personal resources or other resources (soldiers, money, etc.)?

The 3 ta'veren have the following:

- Rand: powerful channeler, awesome sa'angreal, powerful ta'veren effect, remarkable and unexplained learning of weaves (probably attributed to LTT memories and/or divine intervention).

- Perrin: TAR, wolves, sense of smell, ta'veren effect

- Mat: Luck, battle memories, foxhead medallion, ta'veren effect

Perrin's huge disadvantage is Faile; but I won't get into that

Of course the trolloc wars, though really a series of wars, had the biggest impact on populations since the breaking.

but the trolloc wars ended hundreds of years ago, since that time nations continue to collapse and populations decline.

But the Aiel didn't decline. They grew and prospered from few thousand to few million as a nation (all 13 clans combined).

Is there any reference where it says that the WoT population is in decline since the Breaking?

He only thinks he will lose himself. ToM shows it was a choice to go feral by that guy. rand's gift is less his ta'vereness and more his extreme channelling ability, which is far more likely to destroy him than being a wolfbrother is to Perrin.

He was wrong when thinking that the mere contact with the wolves would make him lose himself, but he still needs to find that balance. That is for certain. If he didn't find it he would become just like Noam (?¿ I think that was the name) eventually, or lose himself in another way I don't know. Elyas sais that he had had the same problem, but that he had found his balance.

And maybe Rand was in more risk pre-cleanse but that's not the point.

I never said that Rand and Mat didn't have their own problems, I only said that, from my PoV, the one with less help (understood as abilities too) and resources to do what he had to do was Perrin.

 

Perrin had Elyas and Hopper from the start (TEotW). Rand started getting help only after Asmodean was bound to him (TSR, I think). Perrin had the tools to help him right from the start; whereas Rand didn't have them till much later. And that is not counting his unbelievable sense of smell that picks up complex emotions rather accurately. He's got a few tools Mat and Rand don't have.

Lol? Rand had Moraine from the start if the argument comes down to that. I would much appreciate if you tell me what tool you're talking about. And his sense of smell while useful can't compare in campaign efectiveness with channeling or memories that make you equal to a Great Captain. Imo.

It is precisely channeling that I am talking about vs. Perrin's wolf ability. Rand didn't have any teacher or guide on channeling till Asmodean came along; whereas Perrin had Elyas and then Hopper from the start to guide him. Perrin's denial and unwillingness to learn are what held him back; but the tools were there.

As to his sense of smell, I think it is one of the most powerful traits that make Perrin formidable. He can sense the true feelings of a person speaking to him. He is the only who could sense people's true feelings in the books. Not a shabby advantage!

Your stats are great and do back up your argument, but the situations of Europe and Randland are diferent. I compared the Trolloc Wars to WW1 because the abount of comparative devistation and lives lost, but not as a direct comparison. I dont think the ratios mix.

 

This is a thread from back when talking about the population density of Randland in the modern era. http://www.dragonmou...on#entry2203585

 

I think the consensus was between 30 million to 50 million living in Randland right now. The population in Europe in 1919 was anywhere between 350-400 million, which is a huge diference to Randland. A population of 350 mil losing 65mil can rebound much faster than a population of 30mil-50mil losing ~10mil or even less; its a proportion issue.

True; but you're taking the last bit of my argument about the impact of battles and wars on population. I started with the stats at 1000 BC when the world was at 50 million and ended at 1750 AD when the population was about 791 million. Over 2500 years of lack of modern technology, of constant war, of famine, lack of adequate healtcare, etc. Even then the population steadily increased every few generations.

How much did WWI and WWII hinder Europe's population growth?

 

Wars are nasty and hundreds of thousands die in prolonged ones; but they don't impact fertility rates or population growth unless the wars are extermination wars. An example of how war doesn't affect population growth in WoT are the Aiel. In Rand's PoV's they were a few thousand at the start. Now the Aiel, a constantly at war society, fields armies of at least half a million spears - professional soldiers - (meaning their total population is over 3 million).

 

Theodril, what are you talking about? Technological diferences asside, the Trolloc Wars were probably worse than our WW1, and The Great War had millions of casualties, estimates are between 15 million and 65 million (though that includes the spanish flue pandemic) which was ~3% of the population of the world at the time. The lowest estimate of WW2 was 40 million casualties, and I dont think that even includes the Holocaust (which itself was just a bare fraction of the bodycounts of the Stalin and Mao tse Tung regimes). These wars lasted respectivaly 4 and 6 years; the Trolloc Wars lasted 350, and the War of Hundred years...well you know.

 

I doubt the fall of Hawkwings empire was anywhere near as bad, but you can look at Europe's own Hundred Year's War for a real-world comparison, and it reduced France's population to about half. The fall of Hawkwings empire brought about a total breakdown in scociety which more than implies a full stop to trade, which brings with it famine. There is a reason that the Four Horsemen are always depicted togother: where one goes so go the others. It took hundreds of years for society to rebuild from the ashes of the Hundred Years war; thats never a pretty thing.

 

In Randland, obvioulsy the Trolloc Wars decimated the total population, look at all the abandond swaths of land, the abandoned ruins of cities; look at Manetheren. It was wiped off the map and all that survived was three villages in the middle of nowhere who didnt even remember who they once were. Six of the Ten Nations were smashed beyond rebuilding and whole cites lost forever.

 

The Southern nations tend to rebuild faster because they have a higher industrial base and actualy werent as affected by the Trolloc Wars as the mid-lands. The Boarderlands didnt get as involved in the politcs of the southern states so both north and south were each spared the devistation of at least one of the devistations. The center nations were hit hard by both the Trolloc Wars and the 100 years war, though they rose from the fall of Hawkwing's empire stronger then they had been since before the trolloc Wars.

Europe's population at the start of WWI = 300 - 350 million

Europe's population at the start of WWII = 450 - 500 million

(I tried to find an accurate reference; and would appreciate any help)

Europe's population in 2000 = 700 million

The stats show that WWI and WWII did not reduce Europe's population for an extended period of time. The population rebounded with significant increases.

He only thinks he will lose himself. ToM shows it was a choice to go feral by that guy. rand's gift is less his ta'vereness and more his extreme channelling ability, which is far more likely to destroy him than being a wolfbrother is to Perrin.

He was wrong when thinking that the mere contact with the wolves would make him lose himself, but he still needs to find that balance. That is for certain. If he didn't find it he would become just like Noam (?¿ I think that was the name) eventually, or lose himself in another way I don't know. Elyas sais that he had had the same problem, but that he had found his balance.

And maybe Rand was in more risk pre-cleanse but that's not the point.

I never said that Rand and Mat didn't have their own problems, I only said that, from my PoV, the one with less help (understood as abilities too) and resources to do what he had to do was Perrin.

Perrin had Elyas and Hopper from the start (TEotW). Rand started getting help only after Asmodean was bound to him (TSR, I think). Perrin had the tools to help him right from the start; whereas Rand didn't have them till much later. And that is not counting his unbelievable sense of smell that picks up complex emotions rather accurately. He's got a few tools Mat and Rand don't have.

Was 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' a command to lay low, and let the Fool inhabitants of the Wetlands rule and destroy themselves with wars while the Forsaken assumed mid-level roles in the ruling bodies to manipulate events from within?

 

Something like that.

I always took it to let the "fools" believe they are running things and in charge.

If you look up any of the big theories on the subject you will find a recurring mention to the feast day where people assume opposite roles in their town. The town fool becomes mayor for a day and vice versa down the ladder.

And there is the unnatural weather, failing of crops, famine, uprooting of people from their homes, civil wars, constant wars, falling of world order, the Seanchan invasion and destruction of kingdoms, etc... It was the Lord of Chaos, not just chaos.

The world wars were very civilized though, atleast in Europe (discounting the Holocaust which was horrific, but not really an act of war per se, the Nazis would of done it without the war). Europeans have had centuries of wars with each other, they know what to leave behind so that the country can survive to pay reparations.

 

The trolloc wars were about extermination which would of destroyed food production for decades afterwards, the war of a hundred years was the falling of an empire, which always results in mass starvations as markets collapse. It took Europe centuries to recover after the fall of Rome, and has only really survived since the renaissance because of Nationalism which means collapses don't take everyone with it.

WWII claimed 60-70 million lives in 5 years. And I think we can debate how civilized it was for quite a while. Carpet-bombing of civilian centers, two nuclear bombs, the Holocaust, and other war crimes. Of the 60-70 million killed, nearly 70% (40-48 million) were civilians. Only 30-33% of deaths were military deaths.

In general, military deaths caused by war over the last 2K years have not hindered human population growth. The single most devastating event in European history with regards to human casualties is the Black Plague. That one mowed down one third of the continent. No war has done that.

The thing with WoT is that we're talking about 100 generations covering 2500-3000 years. If we apply that to estimates of our world's population statistics, the world had about 50 million in 1000 BC, 100 million in 500 BC, 200 million in 1 AD, 310 million at 1000 AD, and 791 million in 1750 AD. This is the equivalent time of WoT's world, so I'll stop there. The statistics show that the world's population multiplied 16 times despite the history of war, bloodshed, famine, disease, and lack of adequate health services during the times.

How much did WWI and WWII hinder Europe's population growth?

Wars are nasty and hundreds of thousands die in prolonged ones; but they don't impact fertility rates or population growth unless the wars are extermination wars. An example of how war doesn't affect population growth in WoT are the Aiel. In Rand's PoV's they were a few thousand at the start. Now the Aiel, a constantly at war society, fields armies of at least half a million spears - professional soldiers - (meaning their total population is over 3 million).

We still don't have any reason to believe it's possible to forswear Oaths on a binder other than the one you used to swear them in the first place.

Galina forswears on a diferent one.

Galina swore a new oath on a new binder (No. 1, I think). The oath was to obey Therava (essentially becoming her slave).

I wonder if we can assume that the higher status of women in Randland has led to lower (on average) fertility rates within the population. It also seems like the population has access to family planning methods as well (heartleaf tea). I think the biggest factor in the decline of civilization in Randland has to do with corruption. Jordan never made a major plot of the corruption issues outside of the White Tower, but the most rational explanation to the stagnation and decline is that most of the political and social institutions in Randland are nearly as infiltrated.

Overall, the fertility rate seems to be healthy in Randland. Most societies are agricultural or militarized, both requiring high fertility rates. As to corruption, it definitely plays a role in hindering progress. But it is a far less important factor that scientific/power advancement. Randland has been in limbo vis-a-vis technology for over 2000 years. That set society at a constant level of production. There are no agricultural or mechanical, or OP-driven discoveries to change how society functions, keeping productivity at the same level.

Yes, and if the Shadow hadn't come along and mucked things up, the Aes Sedai would likely have pulled themselves out of their public relations hole, and I agree that they nearly did so twice, first in the Compact, and second through cooperation with Hawkwing's early empire. My point is that they have a public relations hole to climb out of in the first place. I'm not some Tower hater who thinks the Aes Sedai suck in general. I'm actually rather impressed with the progress they have been able to achieve, limited as they are. Don't underestimate the power of the Breaking in making a general distrust of channelers very deeply ingrained. It lasted for 300 years, and reduced the population from what would have been at least 5 billion people at the end of the War of Power to no more than a billion, even after the whole 3000 years of relative peace of the 3rd Age. No war or plague before or since has ever been so fatal for humanity. Channelers rearranged continents, for crying out loud. I'd be surprised if more than about 500 million people overall survived the Breaking.

But wouldn't civilization know that female channelers are the ones that saved them from the madness of the tainted males? Again, I'll say this and know that it sounds redundant since it is the 3rd time I posted it: there is a balance between fear and respect. This balance ensured the continuity of the WT's role in Randland. Lan in Canluum in NS thought on it (sorry I don't have the quote right now; but I'll dig it up later if necessary).