Yeah; but Artur Hawkwing gave civilization the perfect chance to get rid of the WT; yet that didn't happen and the WT continued to play its role in Randland. As I said earlier there is fear and mistrust of Aes Sedai that is balanced by respect and gratitude. Without this balance, the WT would have ceased to function as an institution.

Didn't Ishmael transfer the BA command to Mesaana? If so, then Be'lal would have had to go through Mesaana to get his 13 AS? She would have had to agree to it and allow Liandrin and co. to go to Tear.

Well, (a) no, I don't think so (all FS have their contacts among the DF, who naturally do their bidding, but none have absolute command of them), certainly not as early as TDR (it doesn't fit with the way Mesaana spoke to Alviarin in ACoS prologue about serving her above all else save the Great Lord; she didn't remind Alviarin of an existing order, but rather explained the command for the first time). And (b) agreeing to a scheme is quite different from participating in it.

But didn't Mesaana stand behind deposing Siuan and raising "the fool" to the Amyrlin Seat? That was way before ACoS.

What, that she was proud of Be'lal's trap? I hardly think that's a confirmation of her involvement (sure, they're not ones to compliment the others' work, but she could've had part of the planning without taking an active part in it, and I don't find her involvement with Be'lal any less strange than the possibility of Lanfear's being also involved, given everything we know of him, which isn't much).

 

Didn't Ishmael transfer the BA command to Mesaana? If so, then Be'lal would have had to go through Mesaana to get his 13 AS? She would have had to agree to it and allow Liandrin and co. to go to Tear.

I don't think I can discuss 3000 years of civilization well. But in general the WT's survival and continued role throughout Randland is evidence of its continuity, feasibility and necessity. Fear and mistrust of Aes Sedai are certainly there; but it is balanced by respect and service rendered to the people. Without this balance, the nations would have killed would be channelers instead of sending them to Tar Valon (or allowing them to be sent to Tar Valon). Aes Sedai would not have continued to exist as an institution. They might have ended up as a cult or something like the Kin.

The continuity of the WT for such a long time was a result of its necessity to the people and a general consensus and acceptance of that necessity despite fear and mistrust of Aes Sedai's exceptional power.

But for all their power, they were unable to unite the land, or foster any kind of significant re-building in the time after the Breaking. It took Artur Hawkwing to do that, and that was essentially the Pattern working its ta'veren magic to do it. And the Aes Sedai were unable to maintain any sort of unity, or even maintain the infrastructural progress Hawkwing created after the fall of Hawkwing's Empire. I agree that they're the most politically powerful institution, and have been for most of the 3000 years of the 3rd Age, only falling to second during Hawkwing's administration. But they're not the most politically powerful force. That honor remains, as always, with the people, and the Aes Sedai have extraordinarily little ability to manipulate that power, given that they are the most politically powerful institution.

Over 2500 years the WT has enjoyed:

- uncontested and exceptional power (use of Saidar)

- wealth and almost infinite resources to cover its "programs"

- the willing or unwilling (but in the end they listen and mostly obey) ears of the ruling elite in all kingdoms except Amadicia

- each Aes Sedai holds a distinguished position in any society, regardless of trust, she is obeyed and respected/feared (the same could be said of nobility).

- WT involvement in governance and politics: negotiating settlements, ending wars, guiding monarchs.

- WT the leader of the fight against the Shadow (watcher of the seals, Trolloc wars, healing in battles, etc.)

Over 2500 years distrust and even rebellion against the establishment would be expected. But the WT held pretty well till the BA nearly crippled it from within. And it appears poised on the verge of a serious reform stage that should propel it back to the leadership role (if all things fall in place).

WoT world always hit me as a too rich world. The reason could be that most of the action evolves around the elite: Andoran court, Stone of Tear, Sun Palace, Tarasin Palace, Panarch's Palace, King's Palace and Council of the Nine Palace, Guild of Merchants, Aiel clan chiefs, and all the monarchs and nobility in Randland.

But there are few passages that give an indication of the impoverished commoners especially the refugee situation in Cairhien and Andor (Olvar), men enlisting in Perrin's army for food, the disaster in Tanchico, the famine in Bander Eban, etc.

We also have mention of merchants and bankers who are generally well-off.

But since most of the action is around courts and nobles, silk and gold taken for granted.

I don't know, but aren't there technically unlimited which means you don't need preorder and doesn't it come instantly too? Also, I think the ebook comes out after the real book.

It isn't an issue of availability; but finances that drove the question. I just want to pre-order it and be done with it. The next 10 months would be easier for me knowing that I have a prize waiting for met at the end of the tunnel. Just a personal thing!

Also, I noticed the link in another thread giving access to the UK Kindle edition.

Is the AMoL Kindle edition available for pre-order in the US?

Knife of Dreams, Chapter 18.

Thanks

I thought it was pretty well established that the dizzyness and nausea were from the link to Moridin.

If it is, then I am ignorant of the fact. Where can I read up on it?

The taint's progression stopped after the cleansing; but whatever stage or impact it had pre-cleansing remained. Naeff and Androl are clear examples. But it applies to all other Ashaman and to Rand.

But with Rand it was the taint as well as LTT. Remember how LTT took over when the Shadowspawn army attacked him in Tear! Rand's physical health was greatly affected by the vileness of the taint. And that includes the dizziness spells, retching spells, etc. And with all of that, I haven't started on the impact of accessing the TP!

If the Talisman of Growing is only a "medium" for the continuous connection of Saidin to the Ways, then I can see how the taint could seep into the ways. But if it is just a spark for a one-time weave, then the corruption of the ways needs another explanation.

even if it is a one time deal, after the breaking they grew many many more Ways so it could be possible that the building of Ways is what did it

But if it is a one-time affair, then evey Saidin weave pre-cleansing is corrupt or will corrupt over time. Is this how this works in the books?

If the Talisman of Growing is only a "medium" for the continuous connection of Saidin to the Ways, then I can see how the taint could seep into the ways. But if it is just a spark for a one-time weave, then the corruption of the ways needs another explanation.

A valid theory, however, we have this, and other clarifications.

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard it as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint and the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but it's definitely on the evil side.

 

QUESTION

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of saidin?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it's feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

Do the "chemicals" factor in anything that was channeled out of Saidin? If Neald used his power to make power items pre-cleansing, would they corrupt over time?

Thanks for the correction. But how is it known that the corruption is from the taint? I mean, the eye of the world had a pure, taintless pool of saidin. That means the taint isnt part of saiden, and even though men died creating that pure pool, i think it means that actual flows arent affected by the taint, the taint is just taken in as side affect of saiden. Also, isnt the taint described as a sheet covering saiden? So taint wouldnt be woven into the flows, just affecting the channeler. Do we have any other evidence of male acts post-resealing being tainted (other than madness, of course). Im sure Im grasping at straws here, but its worth the thought.

 

Also, IIRC, the chosen have no control over the taint, but are just protected - Rand cutting Asmo off renders him helpless. If there was a way to control it, then Asmo would then most likely find a way to avoid the effects of the taint.

You aren't grasping at straws here! If what applies to the Ways applies to all Saidin channelings, then Flinn's healing would be corrupt over time; and so would many other things. And that's an interesting take on the issue.

One possibility is that the Ways are not dependent on the channeler; but on Saidin itself. They could be like a channeler who draws on Saidin everytime the Ways are used; and so the taint would seep into the Ways (channeler) with time. Now that is truly grasping at straws!

If Tenobia, Bashere, and Faile die, would Perrin become King of Saldea?

 

Yes, though it's not necessary for Faile to die. This was confirmed in the glossary of TOM. You also might say it was confirmed by Verin back in TSR:

 

"Could I only split myself into three, I would latch one onto each of you and follow you every moment of the day and night even if I had to marry you."

 

"I already have a wife." It felt odd, saying that. Odd, and good. He had a wife, and she was safe.

 

She shattered his moment of reverie. "Yes, you do. But you do not know what marrying Zarine Bashere means, do you?" She reached up to turn his axe in its loop on his belt, studying it. "When are you going to give this up for the hammer?"

 

Staring at the Aes Sedai, he reined Stepper back a pace, pulling the axe out of her hands, before he knew it. What marrying Faile meant? Give up the axe? What did she mean? What did she know?

 

And you might say Brandon confirmed it too.

 

 

You're not living in a monarchy, are you?

 

Not sure why you think all monarchies should follow the same rules as the Dutch one, since there have been varying approaches to succession in European history alone.

Thanks for the clarifications, Terez!

If Tenobia, Bashere, and Faile die, would Perrin become King of Saldea?

I don't know if the spouse of the rightful heir can claim the throne for his own. I guess not. If Tenobia and Bashere die, he will be either king of king-consort of Saldaea.

And if Faile dies?

Just wondering: Is the a'dam is a ter'angreal that uses the same technique of the "forced circle" torture method used by the Black Ajah?

It is a type of ter'angreal, yes. Though I don't remember reading about any forced circle used by the BA. I thought other than with an a'dam, one cannot be forced to link.

I'm pretty sure there is a "forced circle" torture technique by the Black Ajah. But, atm, I cannot remember where the reference is

Just wondering: Is the a'dam is a ter'angreal that uses the same technique of the "forced circle" torture method used by the Black Ajah?

Well they won't have any suldam then. My idea is what they could do once they find out that their suldam can learn to channel as they are now. Once they are all stilled they do not have to worry about the Suldam channeling anymore and they could still use the Damane,

The weasel is in the Seanchan chicken yard! They're gonna have to evolve and come to terms with the knowledge that Suldam can learn to channel. Whether they follow the Stalin route or another route is a different matter.

IIRC Siuan and Leanne were able to hold Moggy with the adam when they were stilled. Not sure if they were able to weave the OP through her but if they did then it brings out a possibility for the Seachan to continue to use Suldam and Damne. Spark the Suldam then still her and let her do her job. This way they not have to worry about the Suldam channelling.

But since damane are much more valuable than suldam, the Seanchan would probably want to collar any sparked suldam.

Yes, true, I'd overlooked them. but note that they are the exception, not the rule. I do have hope, though. With the changes coming to the Red, it opens the way for those AS, and others like them, to take a leadership role post-TG.

There is also the Red that swore to Rand in Cairhien, Sashelle (I think). She was dedicated to Rand despite being free of the 3 oaths.

What do Aes Sedai get out of the deal from bonding a Warder? (Besides using the Warder's energy)

They get awesome bodyguards who save their lives many times during their service.

I suppose then it is understandable. Disturbing, but understandable. And it isn't like he was being serious. I hope that the girl/woman didn't think he was..

I'm sure he was serious about the first two suggestions.