The only thing that would make me accept egwene turning to the shadow would be her taking out perrin and elayne in a fight

It's always easy to make a big scene from a position of strength where nothing is at stake.

The guy was ready to go toe to toe with the dragon reborn over the aes sedai. Forgetting the fact these aes sedai kidnapped rand and beat him senseless.

Then with the same breath he went right ahead and handed 200 women to a life of slavery and imprisonment to save his wife. So not only is he dumb, stupid and whinges like a fisherwoman, he also has no principles whatsoever.

It doesn't really matter how much force he had compared to the shaido. His allies especially the DR has much more channellers on his side with ashaman to boot. He could travel and ferry them over. In the end it doesnt matter though. The guy is gutless and pretty much will sell the world to the DO for faile.

May shaidar haran take this whinger and his loony wife away from us for good.

You know what i find funny?

This guy was going fave to face with rand regarding the issue of aes sedai when they were captured after dumai wells.

Yet he had no qualms about the seanchan enslaving 200 women in one go and treat them basically like pawns. God someone get rid of this guy already!

Elan come on man even I am not that focused on Egwene hate. Mowbray raised some pretty neat points there and you have to grant it. I ave personally strongly disliked ok hated his story arc since LoC but that is why I hated Faile so much. She had destroyed a perfectly good character. I also have to agree wit the characterization aspect. It has been one of the main strengths of the books. On thhe whole a good post.

some characters started off badly in the series and became better and better as it goes on.

In perrin's case it's the complete opposite. The first 4 books were very good. It went downhill from there.

I have never seen a grown man whinge and moan as much as perrin. 'Oh i dont want to be a leader waah, my beautiful faile, she's gone, the shaido took her waaah etc etc.

It was frankly nauseating to read

Did you hear that sound? that's the sound of me wheezing for breath as i laugh my head off. Perrin aybara the most complex character? A comatose brain dead squirrel is more complex than the wolf doofus.

Most pointless character of the major characters after elayne ofcourse. Jordan just killed him in the latter books

C;mon. Am i really that transparent nowadays?

back to the drawing board i guess

:p

Al Thor will retire to the dustbin of history? lol. The dragon will be remembered a whole lot more than a 2 bit amyrlin like Egwene in history. The Dragon is the most important soul in the last 2 ages.

Can't even get a 2 bit amyrlin to follow him. The ring of tamyrlin seems far far away. how the mighty have fallen. get ready for the end of AMOL when rand scurries off to the sunset with min while egwene rules the world with logain.

but why did the pattern allow him to be captured like a common criminal in book 6?

 

It started a sequence of events with Rand forcing the proud AS to kneel before him. Pattern decided that.

Pattern decided rand should have an ego boost? by having worthless elaida followers kneel to him? What a sad state of affairs. Once he wore the ring of tamyrlin and was first amongst servants. He summoned the nine rods of dominion.

whereas now he is forced to rely on meagre scraps. His own ashaman are split into three factions with one third of them darkfriends. What a joke.

Even now with tarmon gaidon around the corner he is cant get the female leadership of the aes sedai to follow him. LMAO Ofcourse one can say he doesnt need them to seal the bore but all that kneel or you will knelt makes no difference to the grand scheme of things.

In the end once the bore is sealed, al thor will retire to the dustbin of history.

Regardless, the books make it clear that no one can break a circle of 13. So, Egwene could have held Rand captive if she wanted to.

 

I, on the other hand, just assumed that Egwene was subconsciously recognizing that the pattern would not allow that, not that she actually thought that Rand could break through shielding by 26 sisters. I mean, if she tried to give the order, who knows what would have happened? Perhaps a chunk of poorly repaired ceiling would break and hit her in the head, knocking her out. Perhaps all 26 sisters would spontaneously decide to swear fealty to the Dragon (or maybe just the two leading the circles).

 

Exactly. We already have evidence of that sort of twisting of the Pattern, with Cads. Egwene could not have held him.

 

Wonderful. On the one hand we have textual evidence that a circle of 13 can hold any channeler; and we have LTT in the box and prior to that raving mad against a circle of 13 as impossible to break. And on the other, that is brushed aside; and we have your assumption that Egwene was afraid that pattern would intervene to prevent her from holding him. You don't even consider Egwene's thoughts on why she shouldn't hold him (hypocrisy after what she told Elaida).

 

You cannot fathom the idea that Egwene let him go of her own free will because she trusted him to show up at the meeting to discuss his plan. And that despite the text pointing in that direction. Amazing that to some people, the woman can do no right no matter what!

 

Rand walked into the Borderland camp with 13 AS there.I do not remember whether it was out of the effect of the "the guardian" ter'angreal but Cads was surprised that Rand seems unconcerned. Either he knows he cannot be shielded anymore due to his tavern influence or he knows that if worse comes to worse he will use the TP to blast his way through.

13 aes sedai will block you from any source of the channelling. One power was confirmed by LTT in book 6 and true power by moridin in book 7.

Suttree my man I have high hopes for you. I mean that no one have lived in the shadow of Egwene love long enough to not be able to come back in light. As usual you managed to answer all the things that I did not ask. I mean, I was asking that all the forces of light were already working towards TG except WT and there is a lot of textual evidence to support that and you give me a long wind about how everyone agrees on something that no one agrees to. I mean that they think that it is going to be more balanced, can you imagine that someone going from LA to live in a village from a third world country say in sub Saharan Africa will find it attractive to live there and enjoy it more than they do living in LA. Similarly, if someone from a third world country like say Somalia gets a chance to go live in LA will like to go back to his shack in Somalia? My answer to that question us no. Proof is that you can go and look at the immigration stats. lot more people migrate into the U.S.A than out of it. She is depending on something similar. I t is beautifully written by BS as there is a line in there where she suggests that they go back to there people after they are done with there training and can return if they want to and no one will stop them. In fact we all know that both BS and RJ borrow from both history and myths and there are lots of examples of similar exchange programs in history where powerful governments set up exchange programs with weaker governments or ones they have subjugated. Resulting in the weaker nations being subverted by the rulers who were trained by the ruling elite. If you care you can take a look at the history of Imperial Britain and Tzarist Russia as a convenient example.

so many assumptions. Have you read the entire passage on the exchange programe between all three groups? You do realise that all of them are sending their best students right? And free mixing of knowldge. What makes you think the other two groups are inferior to the Aes sedai? Some of the sea folk channellers are more versatile and more powerful than people like nynaeve for example.

A power hungry leader would ensure only their organisation reigns supreme. Working with 2 other groups and berating her own keeper who was questioning working with the ashaman is certainly not.

Come on people you are smart people I have seen the evidence on other post. This is a favorite trick of Egwene lovers they are going to degenerate the debate into a tiny hole and than everyone is going to be talking about that and forgetting the big picture. We do not hate Eggy because she is going to oppose Rand at FoM. I think that time has come to wrap up this debate. I think that without meaning to authors have managed to show her as a power hungry, self centered and stupid little bitch. there are countless examples and incidents that prove this if you do not believe it more power to you as for Elan's post. He had to go through that phase of dark Rand to emerge on the other side there are lots of foreshadowing to this effect with wolves, prophecies and fore tellings.

wahey we have a lahori here. 'kaysa hai'

Anyways you say egwene is power hungry. Do you think a power hungry leader would have an exchange program with the wise ones and the windfinders? Do you think a power hungry leader would take a red, a faction that was loyal to elaida as her keeper? do you think a power hungry leader would berate her own keeper on the dangers of working with male channellers. do you think a power hungry leader wouldnt mind sharing angreal and other objects of power with other female channellers outside Aes sedai organisation? do you think a power hungry leader would suddenly tense, coil up and become a trembling person when offered the position of amyrlin at salidar?

If that is a defintion of a power hungry leader then the world needs more of them

but why did the pattern allow him to be captured like a common criminal in book 6?

Ripping a hole in the fabric of the Pattern, he Traveled with the True Power

 

(Path of Daggers, chapter 2)

 

I'm not sold on the idea of the Pattern being the thing to seal the Bore - even DO minions, when given access to the True Power, can rip holes in it. The DO can seriously mess with it even from within his prison. Moreover, we have Graendal's statement that whatever the Creator can make, the DO can destroy, though it probably isn't entirely reliable.

 

Sealing the Bore with the Pattern itself is also doomed to get tangled in paradoxes - the Pattern is some kind of physical representation of everything that happens in the world, it is everything as seen by the beings of higher order, the Creator and the DO. The acts of creating the Bore and sealing it are part of the Pattern as well, so sealing with the Pattern...I don't think it is the answer.

well then how are you going to close of the breach in the pattern? because that's what the bore is. Shayol ghul is described as the one place where the pattern is at it's thinnest. once the bore was drilled, what lay on the other side was the dark one.

When LTT used sadin to lay a patch on the bore, it was ineffectual because it was not of the same form as the pattern. it's like inserting a plaster into a wound. That wont work, Only the skin healing back can fix the wound. Only the prison remade whole as it once by the creator can fix the sitation.

and for that to happen, only the pattern can fix it.

ofcourse the problem in all this how can you do that with shaitan on the otherside basically keeping the bore open. I suspect this is where the one power comes in

Rand even mentioned that he needed the help of the women to do it properly and that part of why the current seals are breaking/didn't work permanently are because it was done without them.

 

I know Rand said he needs the female AS but he is going to do something completely different this time. Again Rand thinks he needs both but isn't sure...

"I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet."

RJ has said if Saidar had been involved originally the only difference would have been Saidar being tainted as well. It has nothing to do with the seals breaking down.

Sounds like a red herring. Last time the one power was used to close off the bore saidin was tainted. The one power cannot fix the bore. There's something missing in ths equation

Say what you like about egwene but character wise she is not as bad as rand al thor who has positively nothing redeeming about him.

The only character in a series where the hero is completely unlikable. And that is saying a lot. You can't even use the excuse of the taint in his meeting with egwene.

lol@ benefit of the doubt

He didnt even had the decency to explain what he was going to do when he smashes the seals to egwene and yet she's supposed to give him benefit of the doubt?

Like i said, if a commander in today's armies pulled what rand did, people would seriously question his military credentials. Good thing rand is not NATO's commander

The pattern itself. I thought that would have been clear by now

There's only one thing that can seal the bore and it aint saidin or/and saidar

No but what you did say is "all have played their roles" as if their job is done. We know this to not be the case. At some point you need to set your peevish fantasies aside. Far better for Rand to be open about what he is doing and discuss his course of action so everyone is on the same page. Yes, we know...Eg might not be directly involved with fixing the prison. That changes nothing.

 

Why should Rand discuss his plans on breaking the seals and resealing the DO with Egwene if she is not going to play any role in the process? To massage her ego? Or because she is the "watcher of the seals"?

 

At FOM he will tell everyone not just Egwene what to do in the meantime when he is resealing the DO.

there is no role.

she asked him what his plans and he flat out refused to share them. so there is no role. sometimes it helps if you actually read that passage without rand al thor fanboy goggles

ofcourse we the reader know the truth. he has no plan. apart from smashing the seals and begging min for some clue

sigh,

latra's plan was simple

create a barrier to stop do influence, reduce his hemorrhaging of the bore, retake the lands held by the shadow and most important of all

give the light respite to come up with a real full proof plan of sealing the bore.

LTT screwedup by assuming humans could fix the bore. That shit is only done by the pattern. Not LTT, not latra and certainly not the one power

she wants to keep the seals intact at the moment because there is no plan to seal the the dark one.

 

if rand said to egwene what he planned to do after the seal smash THEN YOU WILL HAVE A POINT IF EGWENE STILL REFUSED.

 

 

 

That is wrong as she is quoted saying that Rand should defeat the DO with the seals intact. She does not want them broken as she knows nada zero nothing about them.

if you want someone on your side, the easiest way to do it is convince them using a method or a plan.

all rand had to do was

' yo egwene. i have got a plan. first i smash the seals. then i do this and i do that. this is my job. but i cant do all this without help. this is where u guys come in. you do this and you do that. mat's gonna do this. perrin is going to do that. what do you think?

that's a lot better than.

'i am going to smash the seals. why because i am the dragon reborn. plans? what plans? see ya. tadaa.

is it any suprise someone would suddenly get their backs up?

she wants to keep the seals intact at the moment because there is no plan to seal the the dark one.

if rand said to egwene what he planned to do after the seal smash THEN YOU WILL HAVE A POINT IF EGWENE STILL REFUSED.

as it is he laughed and walked way. if any military leader acted like that in the real world he would be mocked at will

but hey rand al thor fanboys will always be fanboys.

as for LTT. The choedan kal was only meant to be a temprorary plan. Until they figured out a better way of sealing the bore. LTT plan was shit. it was flawed. he thought he could do a job like the creator. all he had to was hold certain areas long enough for the access keys to be made. and he failed. just like he failed at sealing the bore.

but the funny thing is even then when he was all powerful he was humble enough to dicuss his plans with the women. no the current bumbling shepherder 2.0 version has no plan, wants to smash the seals in a hurry and yet he's the so called zen master now.

rand has no plan. pure and simple.

because there is no point in doing so?

fantastic comment by al thor fanboy

by th way if LTT did his job as a commander of the light then perhaps those areas would not have been lost to sammael and demandred and the keys would be have been retrieved

There are three things that Egwene’s supporters have never bothered to answer or if they have, they glossed over it as if it does not matter. First, Rand will have to break the seals on the DO’s prison we know it since book 6 LoC. Remember an old philosopher by the name of Herid Fel who was killed by the Gholam for he was about t explain something to Rand. His note was something like and I am quoting from memory if someone can find the exact quote that will be very kind. “Chaos and strife weakens the seals. While peace and harmony strengthen them, you have to clear the rubble before you can rebuild, will explain when I see you next do not bring the girl too pretty and distracts me.” There was something else there that I am not able to bring out of my memory again the actual quote will be appreciated. But, the point is that is when Min started taking interest in those books. She along with Rand is the only other person who knows that Heid Fel had figured it out and that is why shadow had him killed. Therefore, unlike egwene’s off screen preparation for the last battle we have a solid foreshadowing that Rand has to break the seals. Second, Amyrilin and Aes-Sedai were held in awe, fear or respect. World has since changed. They are no longer the biggest, meanest or the most powerful dog in the yard. There are plenty of other channelers and since Dumai’s well and aes Sedai becoming Da’stang at the hand of wise ones they do not command the same respect as they once did. In fact, if you take a look you will find that tower’s influence is reducing with every day. As for respect among wise ones, do you really think that they are going to listen to Egwene if it comes to a conflict between her and Rand? You might be prescient but from what we have read to date even being very polite, it is improbable. Tear and Illian barely came, border landers have sworn to Rand and Ebou dari king is with Rand. That just leave Andor with Egwene as Mayene, Ghealdan and white cloaks are sworn to Perrin who we can safely say is with Rand. She is really as powerful as president of U.S.A. Third, again nobody bothered to answer that we hear in avi’s journey through glass columns that White tower has fallen. In that meeting of elders someone tells it just before Aiel decide to return to waste. Hostilities broke out after about twenty years of dragon’s peace. With queen of Andor an Aes sedai and close friend and she being the leader of forces of light. Why are Seanchan just traipsing through the Rand land. What was the most powerful and the best Amyrilin ever was doing for twenty years if Seanchan just walked through. Especially, if you remember that Seanchan damane cannot link. Pleas or once answer with facts rather than innuendos and hunches.

dude every tom, dick and harry knows the seal should be broken. the mllion dollar question is what then?

you see the mighty saviour of thw world had the chance to explain what happens next. but instead he laughed and walked away. not really a suprise because we all know he knows nothing at the moment. He's relying on one of his 3 hussies

As Egwene told Rand in book 5 if I remember correctly when he asked about the rebel AS location "You will be told what you need to know and will not be told what you do not need to know". Perhaps the seals are way above Egwene's pay grade and she does not need to know?

you need to reread the books. that was in book 6. egwene merely told him she couldn't divulge salidar AS location because she was under orders.

totally different from the situation right now when she's is the BOSSMAN or BOSSWOMAN should i say. And she certainly didnt tell 'you do not need to know'

And lol at the egwene's pay grade bit. dude, you need to try harder

Such ridiculous contortions of logic here. We should give Rand the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he's doing, despite the fact that he doesn't explain it to anybody, and from his own points of view, we, as the more or less omniscient readers, know that he doesn't really have a plan any more in depth than, "This feels right, Min, plug the holes for me." On the other hand, we shouldn't give Egwene any benefit of the doubt that she'll listen to his reasons, and if they're good ones, back him in his plan. Yes, she's marshaling forces and preparing her case against his "plan." That's exactly what she should be doing, and it's the reason Rand picked this tack instead of the reasonable, diplomatic course, so she would marshal her forces, really his forces, for him. It's ridiculous to think her default position shouldn't be "No, not at all will we back this plan, not until we know the full extent of the reasons behind suggesting it, and possibly not even then." This isn't a plan about which she should be thinking, "You know, maybe, that might work, or might be necessary for something else to work, I want to hear more before I make up my mind." Everything Egwene and the Aes Sedai and anybody else who was raised in the Westlands and who knows anything at all about the Dark One, the seals and the Bore would tell them that this "plan," presented without any rationale or overarching strategy which incorporates it, should be feared and opposed, no matter who proposes it, let alone someone who could be insane.

 

And I'll say it again, the notion that the Dragon Reborn should be accommodated or supported in everything he thinks to do is as insane as he should be. Egewene's position is reasonable. And that doesn't mean that Perrin's, Nynaeve's or Elayne's positions are unreasonable, but they are far more trusting of Rand, which is a trust that Egwene, who is essentially the leader of the non-Seanchan forces of the Light, can't afford and has no reason to possess.

 

Well Rand knows something about the seals as LTT put them in place while Egwene knows absolutely nothing about the seals.

so if he knows so much why didnt he say to egwene what his plan was to seal the bore?

he had a reason to provoke? really? is this how the lord messiah zen buddha hare krishna dalai lama saviour of the world supposed to act? provoke his allies?

 

If manipulating her into acting a certain way serves a greater purpose, a greater good, one that could not be achieved in another manner, then yes it's perfectly acceptable for him to provoke her. Does it sound like he acted as he did just for the heck of it? Of course he had reason, it's just not clear what it is because we've had exactly one pov from him in the epilogue, where he only mentioned that he meant for Egwene to act as she did without saying why. How can you judge his actions without knowing what his reasons for them were? Why do you think he acted as he did?

And the Aes Sedai have not exactly prooved to be allies so far in the story, and having two cirlces of 13 channelers shield him, when he isn't showing any sign of agressiveness, doesn't help either.

 

Oh how bad of egwene to react like that? Like any sane person with authority. She should have said yes my lord dragon. do as you please. do you want to sleep with me? i can have your babies too after the last battle etc etc

 

No, Egwene should have waited until the FoM to decide whether he needed to be opposed or not. Until then she should neither oppose him nor support him, because she knows nothing about the subject in question. Basically she should be acting as Darlin is, who you'll notice is not supporting Rand, but waiting to know his reasons for wanting to break the seals before deciding what he should do. Rand told Egwene they would talk at the FoM. She has the oppurtunity to avoid conflict with him, but instead she is choosing to oppose him. That's her mistake. She's acting without any knowledge, on the assumption that breaking the seals is a bad idea, inspite of the fact that others have not had a negative reaction to Rand's plan. Her initial reaction is understable, but with a month's time to reflect on the subject, she should have come to the conclusion that Rand may, just may, know something she does not.

what in the world..... greater purpose? are you being thick here? or may be disingenious? he's not professor xavier. How can he possibly know what egwene's reactions are going to be? how can you assume he knows what egwene's reactions are going to be.

bloody hell.

i have never seen in my life people defending something so stupid as this. a man provokes someone and the explanation is because he knows better. what the hell? bububu he's the lord dragon. she should follow him with no questons asked. who the hell is darlin? jeez. you expect the leader of female chanelllers to simply nod and say yes do whatever you like. open the bore and start tarmon gaidon no questions asked no planning done.

Amazing. Lews therin telamon at the height of his power worked with female side of the hall during the power. yet the current clumsy 2.0 version of him provokes the current female leader.

If the lord dragon laid out his plan and egwene refused it then yeah you mght have a point. but he could not even do that. But i dont blame him coz he hasnt got any LMAO!

the truth of the matter is this whole situation has been screwed up the stupid authors. somewhere along the lines rand al thor had to fulfil elaida's foretelling. unfortunately brandon sanderson/harriet have done it stupidly.