I think a lot of this discussion boils down to one thing: Quality.

If the show comes out and the adaptation is well done it will be a success. The main characters are likable and interesting. One of the things that drove the success of the books IMHO is that it had great foreshadowing and many mysteries that gave birth to tons of fan sites. If the show captures some of that then I am very optimistic. 

There is no doubt cuts will need to be made but to me they need to cut the more peripheral stuff while keeping the core of the story. There isn't a ton of that in the first 3 books (even the first 4). So cutting those down will be tough.

I know a lot of people dislike Egwene. I'm personally not crazy about her but the two main issues with her are this:

1) She often does the wrong thing for the right reasons. Examples: She starts deciding Rand is arrogant when he's basically just following Moiraine's advice on dealing with nobility/game of houses.

2) She can be outright hypocritical. Lots of instances, but mostly when it comes scolding others for experimenting outside of training when that's exactly what she does.

That said... my least favorite character of the "main" characters is Faile. I'm not quite sure why I've never really warmed to her, but mostly it's just that I think she's someone who is a little too self important. Her own "Aiel Society" for instance.

 

Good stories never go out of fashion.

I don't know; I think the genres are dead, but they are thrasing violently as the Fades right now.

 

I agree. If the story is good the show will be good and therefor likely successful. So as long as they don't mess up what is already a great story they should be fine.

about Mat's quarterstaff, one reason we have not seen those skills before could be that he has not had access to one before.

 

to dexterryu::  some of the things in your analogy seem to be inaccurate.  priest; Jesus needing help.

from my understanding, Christianity's clergy are elders/deacons/pastors; not priests.

and from my understanding, Jesus would not need anyone's help.

not sure if any real life religion would tell that kind of info regardless of it being true or not.  Christianity; the Bible tells different.

I'm by no means an expert in Christianity... or even really someone that follows any religion. I just used it as an example of what it would be like in modern times to put context into why the characters doubt their abilities and/or prophesied role. I.E. if any member of any government agency or religion approached you and told you that you were the chosen one and to leave you're entire life behind to pursue it I'm sure you would have a hard time believing it.

Anyhow... to get back on topic

This is especially true in Perrin's case at the point of the story where Aragem is. He is NOT the Dragon reborn. He has come across an ability that he had never even known existed and that even Moiriane admittedly know's little about. Then he comes across Noam... which would freak me the heck out if I were in his shoes too.

So Perrin knows this for sure:

1) He has an ability that is potentially dangerous to himself

2) He is NOT the Dragon Reborn

3) He is Rand's friend which makes him valuable as a means of relating to and accessing Rand's trust.

Perrin is skeptical about himself also being Ta'veren. His role is not talked about in any Prophesy so he's skeptical when people tell him that he's important to the fight against the dark one. Given those things... it's easy to see why he'd be hesitant to play with the fire in using an ability that he's not sure he even wants and can be dangerous.

 

I disagree here... at least as far as TV fantasy shows go. There is always going to be an appetite for fantasy shows (just like there is for fantasy books). Same goes for comics. Game of Thrones isn't as popular as it is because it's fantasy, it's as popular as it is because it's really good.

 

I don't know. SFF was not as popular as today. There are no Western movies/series, there are no rom-coms in today's cinema etc.

 

as for GOT... you know, when you read the thousands (or hundreds of thousand) posts about the actresses' bodies, and there are countless polls about how would you f*** her/them, or the "she's 18 now, where are the nude scenes" etc. I think when there are so many degenerates in the audience, there are problems, huge problems.

 

SFF is growing in popularity for several reasons. The first that comes to mind is that the tech to film it and much of the magic not look janky or cheap now exists. LoTR & Harry Potter did wonders to change this perception for the big screen. GoT has done similar for the small screen. 

Not only have they proved that they can do the source material justice but they've also shown that there is an audience for these shows. Heck, just look at how many Marvel movies and shows exist now. It's almost over saturated, but since the quality tends to be decent they are all doing well. I feel that good SFF would be the same way.

Good westerns still do well, but there isn't much about them that couldn't be done in the 70's and 80's from a technical perspective... so pretty much all of the source material has been covered. We've seen movies about Billy the Kid, Wild Bill Hickock, and Wyatt Earp. That said, there are several current & recent TV shows: Hell on Wheels, Deadwood, Longmire, Justified... They are out there and co-exist.

 

If this is the case we can pretty much say goodbye to any chance of a WoT adaptation ever happening. The tv fantasy high will be well over by the time (10+ years) anything might happen with the rights and the books themselves will be too old/not current enough and all fans will have moved on. It would be a depressing end well fitting the curse-like bad luck this series has had regarding adaptations. Really hoping Starz didn't buy the rights.

As far as I see it WoT has a really short window to get on the air in order to be successful. It pretty much closes one year after GoT ends (barring some other fantasy tv show of similar popularity coming and keeping the flame alive). Once the GoT crowd stops longing for something new and moves on it's over.

 

I disagree here... at least as far as TV fantasy shows go. There is always going to be an appetite for fantasy shows (just like there is for fantasy books). Same goes for comics. Game of Thrones isn't as popular as it is because it's fantasy, it's as popular as it is because it's really good.

So if Wheel of Time is made into a show, it will succeed if it's good. I would say that it would succeed if it is good even if it started it's run while GoT is still on the air. In fact, similar to books and how fans like to compare and debate having more than one show that is good is more likely to help BOTH shows. Fans will debate on social media, which builds awareness, which usually brings in more viewers.

The reasons a Wheel of Time show would fail or be cancelled are #1 it isn't good or #2 It's viewership isn't high enough to justify the costs.

Glad to see that you got to see what is the first of Mat awesomeness. If you like how he was in that chapter you'll really start enjoying reading his PoVs.

Second... while I agree that Perrin being afraid of his ability it's also a common fantasy trope while also likely being quite true. One of the things that we always forget is that we, as the reader, know that the characters are part of an epic story that involves the fate of their world. They on the other hand, do not. Think to yourself how you would be if a priest came knocking on your door after searching for you their entire adult lives and tried to get you to believe that your best friend was Jesus reincarnated, and then told you that he couldn't succeed in defeating Satan without your help using an ability that may destroy your mind.

I'm using Christianity here as the basis, but the point is that if you picked any religion and had one of the members of their order come to you claiming a fate of the world scenario that you would be skeptical to say the least and even in denial to a degree even if some of it started to come true. Take this another step further and add in the fact that this order has been blamed for catastrophe's, is very secretive, and is known to manipulate. If it were all true, it would likely take you a fair amount of time to buy in.

 

Wow... lots to respond to here and some of this will be Off Topic, so sorry in advance.

 

First, regarding the show. I think either Harriet or someone involved with the property responded somewhere along the lines and said that the news/cat got out of the bag way early. They said it was happening, just that news broke about it much earlier in the process than normal. 

 

Second, in regards to serial shows vs "case of the week" type shows a lot of that depends on the network and whether they want the show to go into syndication or not. For a show to be eligible for syndication, one of the requirements is "case of the week". While an overarching story can be told, each episode has to have it's own story & conclusion. If you recall a few years back with Legend of the Seeker, the network that made it was hoping that it was popular enough to have the rerun legs like Xena and Hercules did. 

 

Serial shows on the big networks are much more rare. They are somewhat new (on ABC/NBC/CBS) and didn't really become a thing until Lost... but Lost is not syndicated despite it's popularity due to it's serial nature.

 

Third, as for new shows... if you don't have Netflix you really are missing out on some great shows that they produce. Stranger Things is amazing. All of the Marvel shows are really good (I prefer them to the MCU movies). Marco Polo, House of Cards, also great stuff. Give them a try if you haven't already.

 

 

 

1. Harriet's role in WOT was simple: according to RJ she was a beta reader (NOT an editor) Does she hold the rights ot the estate I don't know, but:

 

January 16, 2007 | 06:28PM PT Cabler acquires rights to Martin's 'Ice'  HBO has acquired the rights to turn George R.R. Martin’s bestselling fantasy series “A Song of Fire & Ice” into a dramatic series to be written and exec produced by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss.

 

August 12, 2008 | 09:00PM PT Studio nabs film rights to Robert Jordan book  Universal Pictures has acquired film rights to the late Robert Jordan’s bestselling “The Wheel of Time” novel series in a seven-figure deal.

 

 

Harriet, if you read this topic: this is not rocket science. Someone buys it, you publish the deal. All these 'we develop the series/films on the quiet' is baloney.

 

2. I think, this big 'secrecy' is just dropping dust into our eyes, nothing more.

 

3. Thank you for your recommendations, but after watching a few minutes from these shows, I turn them off. I cannot connect to the characters at all. I try, I really try to find new series in every year, but this is happening with the movies too.

 

My 'toplist' for 2016: The Confirmation, *a very long pause* the first minutes from Pete's Dragon, a few moments from Moana, the POV killing sequence from London Has Fallen, the trailer of Criminal, and Toby Jones from The Man Who Knew Infinity.

 

And even the Confirmation is not a good film. Yes, my bar is quite high.

 

 

Disney basically suffocates the whole industry, so I really don't understand that why Sony and Universal do not cooperate, and why don't they make a 'reduced' WOT film series = focusing only Rand and action.

 

My point with what I said about Harriet is that when projects get announced they are usually farther along... and definitely farther along before they should be considered a real thing. It's a lesson I learned after everyone mistook the Cloverfield trailer as Voltron. Only to do some research and find out that a voltron movie has been go / no-go for over 10 years now with no script, actors, or directors finalized. Same goes for the Halo movie and the Uncharted movie. They get announced when someone buys the rights, then everyone get's frustrated due to length and difficulty of a project getting off the ground (if it ever does).

 

If Wheel of Time finds itself on a network that depends on commercial revenue during the broadcast then there will be a high chance that the series will suck. Just saying that this show is going to be expensive and will take a network like HBO, Netflix, or Amazon to do it justice.

 

I'm really worried that they will say something like that: "We are so happy! CW [as a big fan of Veronica Mars (S1, S2) I know about that channel, but when you see the list of their shows - courtesy of bing.com -: Supergirl, The Flash, Jane The Virgin, iZombie, Arrow, The Vampire Diaries etc it is clearly that they don't care about quality - even my curious wife will not watch an epi from these shows] is the perfect place for this series, and the budget will be sky high, yes, 15 million dollars could give the fans the real experience!"

 

And many months later we still don't know anything about anything. Pathetic.

 

Yes, so long as the goal is to tell the story rather than sell commercials. I.E... If they drag things out for the sake of it that's not good. This is where I look at GoT. They've shortened the seasons from 10 to 7 because that's the number of episodes needed to finish their story.

 

Seeing their numbers I think they've reached the ceiling, the actors demands too much money etc.

 

My wife is currently watching Tom Ellis (I mean Lucifer), Elementary, Blindspot, and Homeland.

 

While she knows that they will make the series as long as they making money, she does not like that there are so many empty episodes (they say filler is at least good, as opposite empty epis), and it looks like she will give up Blindspot because they put Jaimie Alexander  into the background. And if they will not give a big part to Rupert Friend, then she will say goodbye to Homeland too.

 

I haven't find any series worth watching in the last four years.

 

Mostly because most tv shows didn't have a linear story structure per season. Today many many shows are structured in such a way that if you have missed a couple of episodes its easy to become lost as the plot gets away from you. As such most shows don't re-run much because seasons need to be aired in a story order, for viewers to know whats going on and to keep interest in the property. Not all shows mind, but many. 

 

As far as I know, viewers like 'case of the week' structure more than the long -you have to look it up on Wiki- storylines. Which is a big problem for us. Plus, we cannot base on the 'degenerates' as GOT does, because WOT sees/treats its characters in a whole different way.

 

HBO, Netflix use (very) short seasons, so it is easily to catch up.

 

OK if u cut all this stuff, what will the show actually be about?

 

 

Wow... lots to respond to here and some of this will be Off Topic, so sorry in advance.

First, regarding the show. I think either Harriet or someone involved with the property responded somewhere along the lines and said that the news/cat got out of the bag way early. They said it was happening, just that news broke about it much earlier in the process than normal. 

Second, in regards to serial shows vs "case of the week" type shows a lot of that depends on the network and whether they want the show to go into syndication or not. For a show to be eligible for syndication, one of the requirements is "case of the week". While an overarching story can be told, each episode has to have it's own story & conclusion. If you recall a few years back with Legend of the Seeker, the network that made it was hoping that it was popular enough to have the rerun legs like Xena and Hercules did. 

Serial shows on the big networks are much more rare. They are somewhat new (on ABC/NBC/CBS) and didn't really become a thing until Lost... but Lost is not syndicated despite it's popularity due to it's serial nature.

Third, as for new shows... if you don't have Netflix you really are missing out on some great shows that they produce. Stranger Things is amazing. All of the Marvel shows are really good (I prefer them to the MCU movies). Marco Polo, House of Cards, also great stuff. Give them a try if you haven't already.

 

I do. In my opinion it allows the story to be the focus rather than the time. It allows the extra detail and character development to happen when necessary.  Heck even the episode count per season should be adjusted to tell the story the right way.

 

But earlier you have said that "Think of it as two eight episode seasons per year", so would S1 is only 6 episodes but S2 is 11 ep., S3 is 8 ep. be acceptable to you? 

 

Yes, so long as the goal is to tell the story rather than sell commercials. I.E... If they drag things out for the sake of it that's not good. This is where I look at GoT. They've shortened the seasons from 10 to 7 because that's the number of episodes needed to finish their story.

Wikipedia says that WD's running time is 42–67 minutes. That's a pretty big difference between episodes. Do you think that it is the way how WOT should be made?

I do. In my opinion it allows the story to be the focus rather than the time. It allows the extra detail and character development to happen when necessary.  Heck even the episode count per season should be adjusted to tell the story the right way. If it's good, the show will get viewers and the network will make money. That said, Walking Dead enjoys the benefit of being the top viewed cable show right now so it's basically printing money for AMC and gets a lot of leash.

 

#2) Walking Dead does this to fairly good effect. Rick is the main character but he's only the focal point in about 1/2 of the episodes and doesn't even appear in about 1/4 each. Depending on the episodes focus different characters are present or not present. It works because the plot of the show drives who's on and who isn't. On the flip side, one show that did the opposite became unwatchable for me, and that was True Blood. I enjoyed all of the books and the first couple of Seasons of the show. After that the series did a couple of things that I couldn't stand... first was that every character had to be given something to do each episode and the plots moved super slow (and many side plots were just bad). The Big Bang Theory suffers from this a bit well since they've grown the cast from the original 5, to now 8 characters.

 

I don't know these series at all, except their names.

 

So, you suggest that they should focus on a small cast, and if a character has nothing to do, then do not force them to do anything. It does not matter how popular are they. They could missing several episodes, the audience will remember them. Am I correct?

 

 

#4) Think of it as two eight episode seasons per year. Again, Walking Dead is a good example of this format. It runs 8 episode from Mid Oct through December. Then takes a break and comes back in late February. Each 8 episode series is a full arc.

 

How big are the sets? Does the CGI play important part?

 

 

My point with bringing it up is that I think it fits better due to the amount, frequency, and size of non-human characters (especially in Books 1-4) and the amount/frequency of Power use and how crappy it would be if they tried to do it cheap.

 

Maybe we will not see anything just sweating faces...

 

What do you think about the effects in Warcraft?

 

Walking Dead... First, you're missing out on a great show. It's on Hulu/Netflix/Amazon if you have any of those and it's worth your time. The cast is fairly large. It grows and shrinks. Characters are killed off fairly frequently (it's more brutal than GoT). It started off with about 3 main characters and 5 support. Through the show outside of a couple of exceptions who is a main and who is a side are grey. As I said, any of them can not be present (or have no lines) in any given episode and/or be gone for several. Sometimes it's done for suspense (did they get killed or not), sometimes it's just that they aren't part of a given plot-line.

As for special effects. There is no magic. There is a lot of zombies and combat which is a mix of practical and CG.

I only saw a little bit of Warcraft... so I really don't have an opinion. The trailer looked a bit over the top/cartoony, which fits it from what I remember of playing WoW.

 

Wow, lots to respond to.

 

1) Moi and Lan would definitely be category B in book 1. Category C in Book 2, then back to B in 3-5. After that Lan is mostly C.

 

2) As for Min, I would leave it much the way it is in the books. Especially until book 6 when she becomes a little more present. She would bounce between B & C quite a bit too.

 

3) As for Perrin, I wouldn't have him be as abscent as he is in book 5. There are several ways to do this. First would be to spread out his TSR story.  I'd do something similar with Mat's abscence in PoD in that I would simply skip his broken leg and move right into his Tylen getting killed/channeller rescue/Tuon story. Both arcs have enough in them to be sprinkled throughout the episodes in a season.

 

4) Now we get to the format. Assuming this is live action, in my perfect world this would be a Netflix series produced in a similar format to Walking Dead which essentially two 8 seasons per year. Each episode would be 50-60 minutes. That's the only way I see live action working out well in being both true to the books and getting the entire story done in 6-7 years. That said, if they go animated things could be very different. Actor aging isn't in play nor is keeping them committed and paying them higher rates.

 

 

Thanks.

 

1. It looks like you firmly put them into the background!

 

2. I get your point, but I do not know that the audience how will to react such a sporadic appearance. I don't know what they do in GOT, what was the reaction etc.

 

3. ok

 

4. To the best of my knowledge, and maybe it was mentioned in this thread that filming more than 10-12 episodes per year is 'impossible'. Of course, if we get 16 episodes a year, then the creators will have a way bigger elbow-room, which is only a good thing: if a, they have more money, b, they could fill the 16 episodes with content.

 

on being animated: the water looks very cool in Moana, but as we saw in the How to Train Your Dragon franchise, people do not care about quality (to them Cartoon Network = silver screen), so this way could be dangerous.

 

For #1) I consider A-B to be major characters. C would be important also. I'd say D and lower to be background.

#2) Walking Dead does this to fairly good effect. Rick is the main character but he's only the focal point in about 1/2 of the episodes and doesn't even appear in about 1/4 each. Depending on the episodes focus different characters are present or not present. It works because the plot of the show drives who's on and who isn't. On the flip side, one show that did the opposite became unwatchable for me, and that was True Blood. I enjoyed all of the books and the first couple of Seasons of the show. After that the series did a couple of things that I couldn't stand... first was that every character had to be given something to do each episode and the plots moved super slow (and many side plots were just bad). The Big Bang Theory suffers from this a bit well since they've grown the cast from the original 5, to now 8 characters.

#4) Think of it as two eight episode seasons per year. Again, Walking Dead is a good example of this format. It runs 8 episode from Mid Oct through December. Then takes a break and comes back in late February. Each 8 episode series is a full arc.

#5) If I went animated I wouldn't necessarily go full CG. I've always thought that the type of animation in the movie made for Dragon Age  (Dragon Age: Dawn of the Seeker). would fit well for Wheel of Time if they made the art direction a little bit ligher. Anyway, with animation it would cost less both the produce and for the talent so it wouldn't necessarily need to be a hit at the Game of Thrones level. That said, I'd be very very surprised if this isn't a live action production so animation is a bit of a moot point. My point with bringing it up is that I think it fits better due to the amount, frequency, and size of non-human characters (especially in Books 1-4) and the amount/frequency of Power use and how crappy it would be if they tried to do it cheap.

Thanks for your response, quite an interesting grading (putting Moi and Lan into the second category)

 

Min is really a good example; would you give more screentime to her to balance out her absence? Would there be a problem if the writers would write more sideplots for her? (The series even could start with Moi speaks with her etc. Just joking) From a certain point of view she is more important than Perrin, because Perrin is an outsider, while Min's plot mingles with the others'.

 

On Perrin: he is 'not' in book 5-6, so what's your solution? Cutting him out, or creating more sideplots for him? Or stretching his doing in TSR into more season?

 

And the question gives itself: if we get only 10 episodes (50 minutes long) per season, would you cram tEotW and TGH into S1? I think cramming is necessary, because neither the audience, nor the actors will commit themselves for more than 6-7 seasons. (And seeing 35-40 years old boys and girls is laughable)

Wow, lots to respond to.

1) Moi and Lan would definitely be category B in book 1. Category C in Book 2, then back to B in 3-5. After that Lan is mostly C.

2) As for Min, I would leave it much the way it is in the books. Especially until book 6 when she becomes a little more present. She would bounce between B & C quite a bit too.

3) As for Perrin, I wouldn't have him be as abscent as he is in book 5. There are several ways to do this. First would be to spread out his TSR story.  I'd do something similar with Mat's abscence in PoD in that I would simply skip his broken leg and move right into his Tylen getting killed/channeller rescue/Tuon story. Both arcs have enough in them to be sprinkled throughout the episodes in a season.

4) Now we get to the format. Assuming this is live action, in my perfect world this would be a Netflix series produced in a similar format to Walking Dead which essentially two 8 seasons per year. Each episode would be 50-60 minutes. That's the only way I see live action working out well in being both true to the books and getting the entire story done in 6-7 years. That said, if they go animated things could be very different. Actor aging isn't in play nor is keeping them committed and paying them higher rates.

Min's journey (in TDR) is off screen. Similar solution could happen this time, I think. Does the avg. person sitting on their couch know who Byrne at all? Or would you develop him into a semi-important charcter?

 

And could I flip the question? How does your structure look like? Because we sometimes debate in our club whether we need Perrin or not, so when we are speaking about fifth-tier character getting so much screentime, how would you divide a season up between the characters? 

Yes, Min's journey in TDR is off screen but the reader and the character knew she was going to TV. In TFoH, Min's group did not know which is why it's important to show it.

As for my structure... well that's a whole long discussion but as far as characters go... I'd put them in 4 classes, A-D. Class A's are your main cast that are pretty much the focus of the story. Class B would be your supporting characters that are major characters but can come, go, but when they are around are nearly as important as main characters. Class C are characters that are recognizable and influence the story. Class D are basically your named characters that have a small part, no real focus, but are important enough to be named.

A:) Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nyneave, and Elayne.

B:) Moiriane, Lan, Thom, Min, Loial, Aviendha, Suane

C:) Faile, Rhuarc, Gual, Verrin, Amys, Bryne, The Forsaken, Fain, 

D:) Morgase, Galad, Gawyn, Tam, Berelain.

I'm sure I missed some here and there, and I'm sure we could discuss who should be where also. Another thing is that this list would change season to season/book to book. Min and Loial are good examples. Min only in a couple of scenes in book 1. She's around quite a bit in book 2 and plays an important part. Barely there in 3, then again plays a huge part in 4. She's around quite a bit from book 6 on as she's always with Rand. Loial is kinda the opposite. He's a big player in Books 1-4, but only does small things after.

 

For example... in TFoH, I would consider Min/Suane/Leane/Logan's journey Salidar to be a side plot. It's important to the overall story, but not a main focus for the book. So I'd kick it off with 5-10 minutes at Bryne's and just 1-2 minutes for several episodes each until they complete their arc in Salidar. I'd have Bryne showing up be a total surprise instead of like the book where the readers know he's on the way.

 

 

That's a great example, because I think that's a side plot which does not work on TV at all. Do not mention the fact, that Min is missing from from her own pov, but that's my problem. We have to get acquainted with S, because she will be Eg's teacheradvisor, but I cannot see this working in/on the small screen. Quite simply, just cut it out.

 

I agree that it isn't a great side plot, but it is important. I would dedicate about 10 minutes of screen time to it for the entire season. A couple of minutes in the first episode at Bryne's, and a couple of minutes in the next on the scene where they learn about Salidar. I'd finish it off in the 3rd episode with them arriving at Salidar. I'd skip over the part about the AS not believing who Suane and Leanne are and just have them put to work. That way they aren't just automatically at Salidar with no explanation after escaping.

The only other way you could tell the story would be if the blues rescued them on their exodus from the tower and simply took the 4 with them to Salidar.

 

For the things with Elayne and Egwene... it's not that those things are uninteresting. It's just that they drag on for far too long and are repetitive within themselves. I didn't mind them so much in the novels (although those parts are far from my favorite) because when I'm reading a novel the extra nuance can be good. In a series, they wouldn't need to be completely omitted but just a side plot for a couple of episodes while other interesting things are happening.

 

I'll also say that those plot-lines drove me nuts when I was reading the books as they were released because they kept me away from the events and conclusions that I found more interesting in that sometimes those events weren't covered in the book and I'd have to wait 2 years for the next book. In a re-read where the waiting isn't an issue it's not as big of a deal.

 

I'm also with you on Matt/Tuon. That dragged on a bit. So did Faile's time being a Shaido prisoner. Again, those things aren't uninteresting as much as they moved slowly.

 

 

I agree with you almost totally, except the bolded part.

 

How would you solve the side plots? Would you give them a full episode or two (as "filler" episodes), or would you rather put 5-10 minutes of them into every episodes?

 

What is your ration on the main story vs side plots?

 

I see what you mean on the part I bolded. Most of my "re-reads" are audio books which give a different context of sorts, but I do agree that they could have been trimmed.

As for the side plots... I guess we would need to define what is a side plot. In general I would favor 5-10 minutes per episode. That way people keep track week to week and characters don't get lost for several episodes and forgotten about. For example... in TFoH, I would consider Min/Suane/Leane/Logan's journey Salidar to be a side plot. It's important to the overall story, but not a main focus for the book. So I'd kick it off with 5-10 minutes at Bryne's and just 1-2 minutes for several episodes each until they complete their arc in Salidar. I'd have Bryne showing up be a total surprise instead of like the book where the readers know he's on the way.

 

 A lot of the politics can and should be streamlined... some examples:

 

1) Egwene and the rebel AS internal politics with the Lelaine/Romanda stuff. Went on far too long and could be done over 1-2 episodes of side plot.

2) Rand vs the nobles in Tear, then Cairhien, then Andor... I know the game of houses is a big part of the series but there would have to be more concise ways to portray on TV.

3) Elayne regaining the throne. I get that she wanted to do things the right way, however it was boring as hell and Rand was gone for only a few weeks when she got there. He left his people in charge and it was well known that he meant for the throne to be hers.

4) The sea folk negotiations

 

As I've said before, even RJ had no problems with cutting (or even culling) the 'unnecessary' parts out. Not to mention that the audience cannot separate them apart. Even readers have hard times with these plotlines.

 

The main problem with El (and with Eg too), that she must do boring things like that, securing a throne is usually not a very exciting process. RJ could not have pulled 'a Rand' everytime (see also the relationship between Mat and T), because in real life nothing is that easy.

 

I fear that we won't see the SF on the screen.

 

But while I accept that tv is a different media, it will be hard to digest the whole 'WOT in the name only' aspect. There will be no vast cast, so many plotlines etc.

 

Unfortunately, many people don't see anything during reading (except a few blurry things), so that's why I stand for an adaptation, plus the books will get new readers.

For the things with Elayne and Egwene... it's not that those things are uninteresting. It's just that they drag on for far too long and are repetitive within themselves. I didn't mind them so much in the novels (although those parts are far from my favorite) because when I'm reading a novel the extra nuance can be good. In a series, they wouldn't need to be completely omitted but just a side plot for a couple of episodes while other interesting things are happening.

I'll also say that those plot-lines drove me nuts when I was reading the books as they were released because they kept me away from the events and conclusions that I found more interesting in that sometimes those events weren't covered in the book and I'd have to wait 2 years for the next book. In a re-read where the waiting isn't an issue it's not as big of a deal.

I'm also with you on Matt/Tuon. That dragged on a bit. So did Faile's time being a Shaido prisoner. Again, those things aren't uninteresting as much as they moved slowly.

 

 

They have to follow this route, because the books are written this way

 

They won't be adapting the books plot beat for plot beat though.

 

I did not say that. They should begin in small scale, just as dexterryu suggested. (Jordan said that he would content 4-6 hours screentime per book.)

 

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My watches a few shows, and she finds them very talkative. She odten complains that there aren't any 'silent scenes', whre the protagonists do not talk all

the time. We really hope that writers will stick the nature of the books, and do not make a 'talking heads show' out of the series.

 

I agree with your wife, in particular once they get to Lord of Chaos. A lot of the politics can and should be streamlined... some examples:

1) Egwene and the rebel AS internal politics with the Lelaine/Romanda stuff. Went on far too long and could be done over 1-2 episodes of side plot.

2) Rand vs the nobles in Tear, then Cairhien, then Andor... I know the game of houses is a big part of the series but there would have to be more concise ways to portray on TV.

3) Elayne regaining the throne. I get that she wanted to do things the right way, however it was boring as hell and Rand was gone for only a few weeks when she got there. He left his people in charge and it was well known that he meant for the throne to be hers.

4) The sea folk negotiations

Other things to keep in mind in terms of pace and timeline. The first 6 books took 2 years. The last 7 took under 6 months. Much of that time is detailing out the politics of the 4 things I mentioned. If they kept the plotlines focused on the major events of each book then you could have a much shorter series. 

My preference at this point would be to take a similar approach to what AMC does with Walking Dead, which is two 8 episode arcs per "season". Each 1/2 season could cover a book in most cases with a few exceptions. TSR would probably need a whole season to do well. Conversely parts of Lords of Chaos+Crown of Swords overlap as do Winters Heart +Crossroads of Twilight, and Gathering Storm/Towers of Midnight.

As an aside, even thinking about that makes me almost want to read a super-ebook of the entire series with a re-ordering of chapters. That would make the timeline flow better in the cases where the timelines of the book overlap and you get different perspective of events (not to mention the 2 Tam Al'Thor conundrum).

 

I think this is done for the sake of the reader as much as anything. The scope, complexity, and density of the world/politics/history are a lot to take in at first. The way EoTW is done from a single perspective (mostly) and the perspectives of characters from a very isolated part of the world allows for the reader to discover the world along with and through the characters. Then expanding PoVs to the greater cast as the reader gains familiarity.

 

But this single perspective barely belongs to Rand. We get the bare minimum from Rand (in tEotW), it's mostly just 'description'.

 

In my opinion the show should follow this recipe of starting out focusing on just a few characters and then widening scope organically as the show grows.

 

They have to follow this route, because the books are written this way

 

I suppose I should say that just like the first book, it should really be Rand focused. Meaning that he should be on screen 100% of the time until the group splits at Shadar Logoth. Rand's (and Perrin's) newness to the world outside of the TR is a great vehicle in the book for world and history dumps to bring the audience up to speed with him. This would also work to the same extent with all of the Emond's fielders in the group. 

 

I still wonder if they might make it a story about Egwene and Rand. Their storylines tend to mirror one another.

 

This would be a very interesting approach, but most readers see the whole story as Rand's story. They could put him on a bench, but wouldn't it cause a backlash? I'm all for balancing the screen time for our heroes, but Rand dominates the first books.

 

I think this is done for the sake of the reader as much as anything. The scope, complexity, and density of the world/politics/history are a lot to take in at first. The way EoTW is done from a single perspective (mostly) and the perspectives of characters from a very isolated part of the world allows for the reader to discover the world along with and through the characters. Then expanding PoVs to the greater cast as the reader gains familiarity.

I think doing differently in a show would be a mistake. Remember, a big part of the tension in the EoTW was that the characters had a great distrust for Moiriane and her behavior in many ways caused the reader to empathize with them. While the reader (and the characters) know that she is a "good guy" there is enough there to have doubts about her motives.

In my opinion the show should follow this recipe of starting out focusing on just a few characters and then widening scope organically as the show grows.

only told where the info would be; not the info itself.  like other posts of mine in this thread; and the original poster seemed to not think of "too much" being revealed with those posts.

Hey man, I highly encourage discussion of the plot and such (that's why we are all here), but maybe at least wait until Aragem here has read up to those points. One of the amazing things in this series is the subtle foreshadowing. Pointing those things out to a first time reader ruins that to a certain extent and also breaks the intended tension when you reveal when the answers are coming. There are countless sites and wiki's about the series if the reader/OP wants to find out the answers ahead of time (or she could ask).

Noam; the last books reveal stuff about him.

 

your question about Perrin's future; part of the answer is revealed in the same set of chapters.  the rest, in the last books.

Dude! What is it with you and spoilers?

This conversation is starting to make me think of when Juilin was going to "question" Ronde Macura with some salt and cooking oil. Point being is that we are making up problems and solutions that may or may not exist.

There have been countless books turned movies\TV series with different degrees of success. I don't think the length of novels would become an issue until book 6 when the series takes a shift away from action and world burning to political maneuvering. The first 5 novels translate to the screen very well. Of the roughly 3 years that the novels focus on, two of them are covered in books 1-6 and the 3rd year is covered in 7-14. That's a big difference and it's also where the series slows down significantly.

If the series goes that long, 7-14 is where cuts could and should be made. There are several plotlines that could be cut in the books and not much would have been lost. Some examples: Rand vs Seanchan in PoD. Shaido after Dumai's Wells, Faile's capture/rescue plotline (instead Perrin could simply deal with Masema). Some that could be significantly truncated: Egwene vs Lelaine/Romanda, Mat & Tuon circus travels, Elayne's consolidation of Andor.

These things are all good for a novel since they add complexity and nuance (which a novel needs), but can bog down a tv series where you need to produce sets, pay actors and crews, and keep an audience interested enough to maintain ratings.

 

I always thought the magic in WoT would be tricky to do. IMO there's a high potential for it looking silly.

 

My concern exactly. My fear is that weaves and the art of weaving will only be word of mouth and not explicitly shown. If Rand weaves a gateway, all we will see is the gateway, no matter if the scene is from his perspective or Mat's. That would stink, mainly because one of the ways we've learned to judge a channeler's strength is by their formation of weaves and the amount that they can maintain at once.

 

@Werthead Avatar elemental forms would be cool but like you said, not WoT. Hand gestures are mentioned throughout the books, but always said to be frivolous and akin to a mental block and frowned upon, right? Novice and Accepted would be ridiculed if they had to perform a physical gesture to create a weave. The best example I can think of how weaving should work in live action is "Tuning" in Dark City, but with far more detail and color obviously.

 

I definitely expect some creative license when it comes to weaving, just hope it doesn't suck.

 

The weaving work in the book because we are truly in the characters heads and it makes it more interesting/action packed. Even in the books the threads for commonly used weaves aren't explained everytime... like gateways, balefire, etc... In the case of a book after once or twice it's a waste of words and in movie/show it would be a waste of effects budget. So the best way would be to just show the result in the majority of cases.

I think the way to do it would be to find other ways to demonstrate someone's strength with the power. Perhaps the "glow" and how bright a person glows. But even that would get a bit old and redundant.

IMHO, the weaves would be talked about, but only really seen in duels like Nyneave vs Moghedien.