I think it was a combination of several things. First though... in regards to both how Egwene and Elaida changed I liken it to the bust rate of college quarterbacks playing in the NFL. You never know what you're going to get until the pressure is on. Egwene was able to rise and overcome the pressure where Elaida succumbed to it and more or less washed out. Being a leader like that is one of those things where success is very difficult to determine ahead of time.

Egwene's success as Amerlyn come from several places. First is that she was toughened up by the wise ones. Second was that she was guided by Siuan with both of them being fully invested... Siuan the teacher and Egwene welcoming the the guidance. Looking at how Egwene was from the beginning: being Nyneave's apprentice, to novice, to accepted, to wise one dreaming trainee, etc... She was always able to mold herself to become what she needed to be. She embraced her role. As much as other parts of her personality irritated me this one is not one of them.

It's hard to say whether the dream with Gawyn had any effect. It could have just been as simple as the assurance that knowing the person she loves returns the love. That can have a very self-assuring affect, especially to someone in their late teens.

I think this is an interesting theory... but someone would have to be really brave to test it out since it's potentially life threatening to both the sul'dam and damane. I don't recall the specifics of the tether on the seanchan a'dam. I know Elayne made hers without the tether but not whether or not the seanchan version required it (if I recall in TGH it was partially there to keep Damane from jumping off ledges).

That makes me think that the Mat and Tuon outriggers would tie up that issue. It still seems like that someone or people that are fighting the civil war kill her at a critical time. Which causes the war that Aviendha and Bair see. The fact that Tuon dies differently is an indication that the future is changing. It is looking like they have a part to play helping Tuon and Mat in ending the civil war. It is Mat in particular that will alter the events if the Pattern requires that the Aiel go that way in the next age rather than now or a few years later.

Mat would be a wild card in this case because it's not known if he'll remain as lucky as he is prior to TLB. Now that that is finished with he may no longer even be Ta'veren. He'd still have all the memories that would make him an amazing general but possibly  not have the random chance in his favor that he did throughout the series.

 

I just think both RJ and BS made big mistakes with the Seanchan.

 

Besides making them way too powerful you see instances where news should shake them and all you get is mehhh.   Path of daggers you see the guy in tears at having to report the ever victorious army lost, yet you never see any effect on them.  Damane can channel this will rock the empre to its foundation yet when its finally known, Tuon and the rest simply don't care.  Trollocs in their secure area, yet nothing after that.  No sightings. no fights, nothing in the LB.  So was sort of what was the point of that little attack?  Seanchan continent in chaos, yet why not have the forsaken use that army?  Give the LB a desperate feel I felt it lacked with Seanchan fighting Seanchan.  No matter how dire Mat tried to make the LB seem, it never felt that way to me, hell he sent away half his army to protect Tuon.

 

Well said, I feel the same way.

 

The suldam being able to channel is the biggest thing that gets blown off. It was a huge side-story in books 2, 4, and others for it to have been blown off by Tuon that way. Particularly given the case that just because suldam could be tought doesn't mean they wouldn't accidentally stumble upon it themselves.

Another thing is that it doesn't seem there were any channelers summoned by the horn. For the hundred-ish heroes only a few of them were named and none were described as able to channel. My bet is that it may just be the soul of someone who can channel already is bound to the wheel. I haven't re-read AMOL (yet) but from what I remember the horn, once blown by Olver was almost the "I win" button.

AMOL is a very, very long book. How many more pages would have needed to be written to include more of the feelings of loss by the characters when their friends and comrades died? I would guess somewhere around 10 to 12 which is not a lot of pages. 

 

 

 

Its no surprise to anyone who has followed these discussions to find out that I thoroughly enjoyed A Memory of Light as well as the descriptions and storytelling for the battles in this book. I am more than satisfied with the book to the point that I have read it three times over the years. Robert Jordan would have written a very superior story than Sanderson did, and RJ's battle scenes would have been superior in literary AND entertainment aspects.

My single biggest regret, when it comes to reading fictional series, is that RJ was unable to finish the WOT exactly as he intended for it to be done. 

Even the battles, because they were so spread out and so much of them felt like I was reading them in the news. The majority of the battles in the previous books took place in one contained area... with the most spread out battles being with Perrin in the Two Rivers and Rand in Path of Daggers. The rest: Falme, Cairhien, Caemlyn, Maradon, all took place in a relatively contained area. The other things is that they all took place in what was pretty much a place that had some meaning/personality to it and a bit of a reason for us readers to care about what happened there.

Naturally, something as big as the LB should be spread out but I wish they'd have picked something other than some random battlefields. 

Again, don't get me wrong. I liked AMOL and am satisfied with the ending of the series. I just also see the shortcomings as well.

All three of the boys grow up a bit at the end of book 2 and even more so in 3. They still retain the base of who they are but are no longer the wide eyed country folk they are in the first couple books. Mat becomes what most readers find to be the most entertaining character in the series.

 

The issue not that they died, it's that their deaths weren't felt by fellow characters and/or the reader. Of all the deaths in AMoL, the one that I felt hit the hardest (of all things) was Bela. Yes, a horse. She stepped up, gave her all, and succumbed to her wounds. Others were killed and everyone was like "yep, Suain's dead"... next.

 

 

Seriously! The one that disturbed me the most was Rhuarc's death. So meaningless, just got randomly fragged by the Forsaken, and Aviendha's reaction was basically: "Oops! Oh well..."

 

To a certain point... such is war. During a major conflict people are going to get killed both in meaningless ways and heroic. That said, even in really brutal conflicts where soldiers are losing their brothers in arms frequently they are still felt both from the sense of losing their friends and also for their own mortality in the sense of "If it could happen to him, it could happen to me".

That was what was missing. Everyone just moved on too quickly when in reality it really would have started to weigh on even the most hardened people.

 

 

 

I agree here. Something about the last battle felt underwhelming. It's not that it was bad or poorly written it just didn't have something that Jordan's did, he had a way of making you feel like you were there. Although, I thought whoever wrote the Maradon battles with Ituralde was pretty good.  IMHO... my favorite battle is lifting the Shaido seize of Cairhien... particularly Mat's sections.

 

 

Yes, that's one of my favorite battle scenes too. When Jordan was good, he was very good.

 

Ironically, the Maradon battle was more memorable than the Last Battle for me.

 

Let's put it this way, although I enjoyed the last 3 books, it didn't make me want to seek out Sanderson's own books and read them.

 

 

His own stuff is fairly good. Mistborn is a fun series. I've heard good things about Stormlight Archives, but I'm going to wait until the series is done before jumping in.

 

As for the LB... it felt more like I was reading the news summarizing it than really feeling the battles. As much as I didn't want the series to be extended further they could have paced it across another book, IMO. The losses came quick and there wasn't really time to feel their impact before the story moved on. I know, "such is war", but with the rather minimal epilogue the character deaths didn't really hit me like they sometimes did in other books.

 

 

Yes, well put! The quick succession of character deaths made each death have little impact. Some of them are rather gratuitous. When for 13 books no POV character has died, it seems rather anticlimatic to see them killed off in quick succession.

 

Honestly, instead of one large battle, it would have made more sense to detail a series of smaller battles. I would have preferred to see each of the great cities coming under siege, and the forces of the Light having to stretch their resources thin, fighting desperate, defensive battles. The character deaths could have come with their own meanings. Some would have died when the city fell, others sacrificing themselves to ensure victory.

 

In particular, Egwene's death made little sense. I didn't like her Deus Ex anti-balefire. She should have died taking down Demandred with her, instead of just Taim. (Hell, Taim *should* have been Demandred instead of that Shara BS.)

 

Totally agree on Egwene's death and the anti-balefire. I also agree on the battles taking place on more familiar ground vs some random battleground.

They had done their part by the Pattern, as far as the Pattern was concerned they could die. Before the Pattern needed them, or it would have some doing achieving the same weaving. Remember, the Pattern is ambivalent to human fate, as long as it can weave what it means to.

 

 

Anyway, death is not so terrible, as vitnessed by Egwene there. Clearly, she had done her part, and was pretty satisfied. Whatever comes after. The after death Egwene was not grieving her part.

The issue not that they died, it's that their deaths weren't felt by fellow characters and/or the reader. Of all the deaths in AMoL, the one that I felt hit the hardest (of all things) was Bela. Yes, a horse. She stepped up, gave her all, and succumbed to her wounds. Others were killed and everyone was like "yep, Suain's dead"... next.

 

I agree here. Something about the last battle felt underwhelming. It's not that it was bad or poorly written it just didn't have something that Jordan's did, he had a way of making you feel like you were there. Although, I thought whoever wrote the Maradon battles with Ituralde was pretty good.  IMHO... my favorite battle is lifting the Shaido seize of Cairhien... particularly Mat's sections.

 

 

Yes, that's one of my favorite battle scenes too. When Jordan was good, he was very good.

 

Ironically, the Maradon battle was more memorable than the Last Battle for me.

 

Let's put it this way, although I enjoyed the last 3 books, it didn't make me want to seek out Sanderson's own books and read them.

 

His own stuff is fairly good. Mistborn is a fun series. I've heard good things about Stormlight Archives, but I'm going to wait until the series is done before jumping in.

As for the LB... it felt more like I was reading the news summarizing it than really feeling the battles. As much as I didn't want the series to be extended further they could have paced it across another book, IMO. The losses came quick and there wasn't really time to feel their impact before the story moved on. I know, "such is war", but with the rather minimal epilogue the character deaths didn't really hit me like they sometimes did in other books.

 

Hi, everyone I am back, but what yo gs do not understand is that when decision to split the final book into three was first announced. We had  some very heated debates here on a thread named greed. Me and few others rasied exactly these points. We were of the view that BS is not RJ. THEREFORE, he will never be able to finish this book satistfactorily and time has proven us right

 

I didn't say Sanderson's books were not satisfactory. They were, but they were just satisfactory. They're better compared to books like Crossroads of Twilight, or even 90% of Winter's Heart, but Sanderson could not write epic scenes like Jordan could.

 

The Last Battle, although taking over half the book, was not half as exciting as the Battle of Falme or the defense of the Two Rivers. That's not saying it was bad, because I still enjoyed it, but it did not have the epic feel from the beginning of the series.

 

I agree here. Something about the last battle felt underwhelming. It's not that it was bad or poorly written it just didn't have something that Jordan's did, he had a way of making you feel like you were there. Although, I thought whoever wrote the Maradon battles with Ituralde was pretty good.  IMHO... my favorite battle is lifting the Shaido seize of Cairhien... particularly Mat's sections.

 

In regards to who started the war... again, I'm talking more about the strength vs strength from a military sense between the Seanchan and everyone else. There are lots of factors that could turn the tide to one side or the other such as espionage, betrayals, political manipulations, etc... Those, for the moment are quantifiable. The same is true of the skill of the generals. Both sides had good generals, but which were the best? Ituralde gave them everything they could handle without having channelers at his disposal, but what we don't know is how good the general he was facing. A big factor would be which side Mat was on since a case could be made for him to be on both sides. 

 

 

We could talk about a hypothetical "Grand Alliance" much like the one formed for the Last Battle, and led by the surviving Great Captains (Jagad and Ituralde, I believe?). However, the reality is that Westland nations are simply incapable of making such an alliance last.

 

Generals win battles, politicians win (or lose) wars. The Seanchan's political stability is their greatest strength, and that's what puts them on a level above the Westland nations, even if they don't have a single battle commander as talented as one of the Great Captains. Rome defeated Carthage even though Hannibal was a far more renowned and capable general than anyone Rome could field.

 

If anything, Mat would be on the Seanchan side. Oh, he would certainly oppose any plans to attack the Westland nations, just as Tuon would not start any war either. However, he is the Prince of Ravens, and would likely be leading Seanchan troops against threats like bandits, Aiel raiders, and Darkspawn remnants. He might even be leading the campaign to reconquer the Seanchan continent. All this means that his knowledge will be passed on to Seanchan officers, and instilled into the Seanchan military spirit.

 

That's just it... Seanchan isn't stable. It was stable when the series started but as of now. The forsaken did a number on them too. Tuon is empress on the main continent but on Seanchan, not so much. It doesn't even say if she's recognized over there. All we know is that the "return" Seanchan are aware that the empress is dead and so is the rest of her family. We also don't know how much of the Seanchan army was dispatched as part of the return vs stayed on Seanchan.

 

So in one regard, I think we're talking about two different hypothetical battles. If it was Seanchan vs Rand, then Seanchan has have an advantage. I'm talking about the combined strength of the nations 2-3 generations AFTER AMOL. I argue that the very nature of the fact that the treaty allowed the Seanchan to keep their Damane would mean that the Aes Sedai (and other channeling groups) would be watching the Seanchan like hawks because due to the threat of a life worse than slavery.

 

As far as Semi's effect on the Seanchan, you could make a similar case to Forsaken/Black Ajah manipulations on the main continent. Heck, even Artur Hawkwing was manipulated by Ishamael into his attack of the Aes Sedai. Even though Bonwhin had been antagonizing him (who know's if she was either BA or potentially being manipulated herself?) he didn't have open disdain for them until Ishy came into the picture.

 

I also disagree on Aes Sedai not being trained for battle. They all are and it's a big part of their test for the shawl. Seeing action is another story, but should the Seanchan have complete control over their won continent who would the Damane be battle hardened against themselves?

 

I don't see the WT and BT remaining completely separate in the long run either. We already saw them cross bonding each other and the benefits it could bring. I see them being strong allies.

 

As far as the books go, really the only time the Seanchan are shown as being successful in battle are via surprise attacks. Ituralde is a great example in that a well lead force (without chanellers or air support) can hold them at bay when they are unable to surprise attack with an overwhelming force.

 

At any rate, this is a fun debate :)

 

The problem with the AS is that they are bound by their Oaths. While this doesn't preclude them from helping, it severely limits their tactical options.

 

In Aviendha's visions, the key point was that the Aiel *started* the war. That is quite likely the reason the other Westland nations didn't want to get involved. The Aiel then manipulated Andor into joining the war, but there's no mention of any other nation joining as well. I suspect once the Seanchan conquered Andor and obtained cannons, they became too powerful for any other nation to oppose.

 

I am not so optimistic regarding the WT and the BT. Remember who their respective leaders are after the Last Battle: Cadsuane and Logain. Judging solely from their personalities, it is unlikely they would get along. The Aes Sedai would not discard their manipulative nature overnight, and the Asha'man would never stand for being manipulated like that. Perhaps when faced with an existential crisis, they would unite, but likely by then, it was already too late.

 

Another problem in comparing the Seanchan vs Rand is that the Seanchan are conquerors, not saviors. In TGH, Rand experienced alternate lives through the portal stone, and we've seen that although the Seanchan can conquer the world, they cannot fight back the Dark One's forces. If we look at Rand, we see him jumping frantically from Tear to the Aiel Waste to Cairhien, then Andor. He conquers but does very little nation building. The Dragon Reborn's purpose is to win the Last Battle, not to build an enduring empire. It is the Seanchan who are best equipped to do that, and that's why it makes sense that they would do so once the threat of Shadow has been removed.

 

The AS have been finagling their way through and around the oaths for centuries. Moreover, as Egwene did when it came to the BA they can also be changed and/or released. I'm not saying this would happen, just that given the threat worse than enslavement that they would probably consider it.

As for BT/WT... I can see them clashing for sure, but in the end determining that working together is greater than working separately. Especially considering the positives of cross bonding as Androl and Pevara discovered.

In regards to who started the war... again, I'm talking more about the strength vs strength from a military sense between the Seanchan and everyone else. There are lots of factors that could turn the tide to one side or the other such as espionage, betrayals, political manipulations, etc... Those, for the moment are quantifiable. The same is true of the skill of the generals. Both sides had good generals, but which were the best? Ituralde gave them everything they could handle without having channelers at his disposal, but what we don't know is how good the general he was facing. A big factor would be which side Mat was on since a case could be made for him to be on both sides. 

So in one regard, I think we're talking about two different hypothetical battles. If it was Seanchan vs Rand, then Seanchan has have an advantage. I'm talking about the combined strength of the nations 2-3 generations AFTER AMOL. I argue that the very nature of the fact that the treaty allowed the Seanchan to keep their Damane would mean that the Aes Sedai (and other channeling groups) would be watching the Seanchan like hawks because due to the threat of a life worse than slavery.

As far as Semi's effect on the Seanchan, you could make a similar case to Forsaken/Black Ajah manipulations on the main continent. Heck, even Artur Hawkwing was manipulated by Ishamael into his attack of the Aes Sedai. Even though Bonwhin had been antagonizing him (who know's if she was either BA or potentially being manipulated herself?) he didn't have open disdain for them until Ishy came into the picture.

I also disagree on Aes Sedai not being trained for battle. They all are and it's a big part of their test for the shawl. Seeing action is another story, but should the Seanchan have complete control over their won continent who would the Damane be battle hardened against themselves?

I don't see the WT and BT remaining completely separate in the long run either. We already saw them cross bonding each other and the benefits it could bring. I see them being strong allies.

As far as the books go, really the only time the Seanchan are shown as being successful in battle are via surprise attacks. Ituralde is a great example in that a well lead force (without chanellers or air support) can hold them at bay when they are unable to surprise attack with an overwhelming force.

At any rate, this is a fun debate :)

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it would be a steam role. I just think that the channeling advantages of Randland would give them the upper hand. Linking between both women and men/women + Angreal.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that the take-over starts a couple of generations down the road from the end of AMOL. The landscape could have changed as far as how the Randland channelers interact with one another. One would think that with the DO properly locked up again that the channelers would have started to work together again... then again.. this is Randland and people don't do what you'd think would be logical.

 

 

I would not be so sure about Rand winning against Seanchan, if such a war actually broke out.

 

Sure, the Seanchan was defeated in their first (and IIRC only) battle, but they were surprised by Rand and his Asha'man's abilities. Even defeated, there was no indication that this diminished the Seanchan's fighting capabilities in any significant way. The Seanchan had a far superior economic and logistic base, while Rand was barely able to hold together his alliance of Aiel and Westland nations. Had it come to an all-out war, I would have put my money on the Seanchan, Dragon Reborn or not.

 

The Seanchan had their own channelers, and once they learned Traveling as well, Rand would have lost his most significant advantage.

 

Might just have to agree to disagree. Really the Seanchan never impressed me from a military standpoint (outside of numbers). They took over Tarabon, Amadecia, and Altara. All 3 of which were countries either in turmoil and with weak (if any) rule beyond their capitols. They won those mostly unopposed and with a surprise attack utilizing chanelers.

Looking at things from a military standpoint of Randland vs Seanchan:

Numbers: Hard to really say what the combined nations army + Aeil vs Seanchan would be. Advantage: Equal

Organization: Being 1 government, and one military structure the Seanchan have the advantage here. Advantage: Seanchan

Channeling strength: Randland has trained male & female chanellers. They can link, and have access to angreal, ter'angreal, sa'angreal. Advantage: Randland

Channeling innovation/ability: Recently rediscovered abilities such as ter'angreal making, angreal making, healing whereas Seanchan Damane are mostly only a fighting force. There is no experimentation/innovation. Advantage: Randland

Technology: Mat/Aludra developed cannons (dragons). Improved crossbows etc. Advantage: Randland

Beasts: Randland has horses, Seanchan have grolm, raken, torm and elephants. Raken are the main advantage being an air unit. Rest are rare/difficult enough to control to not be a huge advantage. Advantage: Seanchan

Best fighting force: The Aiel, imho are the best pure fighting group in the series and there are hundreds of thousands of Aiel fighters.

Conclusion: (mine at least).

The biggest difference in a military conflict is the availablilty and use of male channelers. They give Randland an extremely powerful weapon that is pretty much un-countered by anything the Seanchan have. Taking channeling out of the equation it becomes more interesting. That said, I think that the Aiel would be the difference at the end of the day.

The Seanchan's path to victory to me, would be dependent upon infighting and political maneuverings between the nations within Randland. If they picked a general and worked as a unit under that person I don't see them losing.

 

 

 

With as powerful as the Seanchan were made out to be, I don't see how anyone can stand up to the,. I think RJ and BS made them out to be too powerful.

The idea behind the seanchan being so powerful was that not only did they have weponized channelers. The damane were literally channelers turned into guns. The aes sedai not only couldn't attack outside of self defense, they didn't train to fight, and were shocked at the weaves many of the damane knew because they were so violent. And really nothing in rand land can stand up against weaponized channelers. They mentioned that about every 2 pages during the last battle, and that would be why the black tower would have outlasted the white, because they are trained to fight and actually able to attack.

 

In addition to that, seanchan is literally a CONTINENT sized army. They started as luthair hawkwings army, who systematically conquered and assimilated the entire continent of seanchan into their militiant culture. They're all super disciplined, based around rank, etc. their entire culture has been entered on power and conquest for the last 1000 years. And they have one unified government for their entire continent. That makes for not only a very well trained army, but a f*cking huge one. Add to that their weird animals like raken, and weaponized channelers, and yeah that's gonna be a pretty serious army. They know nothing better than they know war.

 

 

I'm going more by what was seen in the books. In PoD, Rand and a dozen or so male chanellers and a smallish (5000 men if I recall) force kicked the Seanchan's butts until Calandor/Madness got the best of Rand.

 

Add to that... Randland's access to linking Angreal, and other channeling groups (wise ones, kin, windfinders) who all are very concerned about the Seanchan as a threat. I just don't see the Seanchan winning. Even the nations that they took over were the easy pickings with weak governments (Amadacia being the exception). 

 

 

That's because the Asha'man had access to Gateways during that battle, and the Seanchan had no idea Traveling was even possible.

 

However, wars cannot be won with just one or two battles. The strength of the Seanchan lies in their organization and adaptability. They are, aside from Perrin's much smaller army, the only combined force army in Randland. They provide their ground forces with air support, and have access to damane-artillery. They have a command structure that is flexible and an economic base that allows them to absorb a lot of losses.

 

Throughout the book, even in Aviendha and Rand's visions, we see that the Seanchan rule is far more effective than any other political organization in Randland. In the end, that is far more important than even channeling. Artur Hawkwing was able to lay siege to Tar Valon without a single channeler in his army. Despite the power they wielded, the Aes Sedai could do nothing but cower behind their walls against the might of Hawkwing's army.

 

The Seanchan, perhaps it bears reminding, are Artur Hawkwing's armies returned... with damanes and flying monsters.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it would be a steam role. I just think that the channeling advantages of Randland would give them the upper hand. Linking between both women and men/women + Angreal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the take-over starts a couple of generations down the road from the end of AMOL. The landscape could have changed as far as how the Randland channelers interact with one another. One would think that with the DO properly locked up again that the channelers would have started to work together again... then again.. this is Randland and people don't do what you'd think would be logical.

 

With as powerful as the Seanchan were made out to be, I don't see how anyone can stand up to the,. I think RJ and BS made them out to be too powerful.

The idea behind the seanchan being so powerful was that not only did they have weponized channelers. The damane were literally channelers turned into guns. The aes sedai not only couldn't attack outside of self defense, they didn't train to fight, and were shocked at the weaves many of the damane knew because they were so violent. And really nothing in rand land can stand up against weaponized channelers. They mentioned that about every 2 pages during the last battle, and that would be why the black tower would have outlasted the white, because they are trained to fight and actually able to attack.

 

In addition to that, seanchan is literally a CONTINENT sized army. They started as luthair hawkwings army, who systematically conquered and assimilated the entire continent of seanchan into their militiant culture. They're all super disciplined, based around rank, etc. their entire culture has been entered on power and conquest for the last 1000 years. And they have one unified government for their entire continent. That makes for not only a very well trained army, but a f*cking huge one. Add to that their weird animals like raken, and weaponized channelers, and yeah that's gonna be a pretty serious army. They know nothing better than they know war.

 

I'm going more by what was seen in the books. In PoD, Rand and a dozen or so male chanellers and a smallish (5000 men if I recall) force kicked the Seanchan's butts until Calandor/Madness got the best of Rand.

Add to that... Randland's access to linking Angreal, and other channeling groups (wise ones, kin, windfinders) who all are very concerned about the Seanchan as a threat. I just don't see the Seanchan winning. Even the nations that they took over were the easy pickings with weak governments (Amadacia being the exception). 

Actually it explains that, basicly all the nations and the BT went after the Seanchan one after another.  After each victory the Seanchan became stronger and stronger, simply becomes a numbers game.  The test all the women they find, chain the channerls and no one is around to train those who could learn.  The nations didn't stand up to the Seanchan together, which is why the dragons peace was so important, uniting the nations and aiel to fight together.

Yeah, I remember that I just don't think that it would happen that way. When the Aiel came over the Dragonwall the nations banded together and fought them. With gateways, traveling, and the fact that the Seanchan particpated in the LB everyone knows about them (not just relying on hearsay/pigeons, etc...). I.E... once the treaty had ended or was broken and the Seanchan attacked everyone would know about it very quickly and I don't see them all going at a known threat one at a time.

 

The One Power will be gone over time after the LB. The damane will eventually die out because the Pattern will start holding those souls back from being born again once they die. The railroad is representing that human ingenuity and advancement has begun again post the DO, whom was actively stifling ideas until the Dragon was born. The Pattern is going to encourage this gradually at the same time it actively reduces the channelling souls to balance it.

 

Where did you get this? Is it mentioned in an interview somewhere?

 

I would say it's more inferred than anything. Previous ages (or future) the One Power was forgotten. Supposedly the age prior to the AoL it was re-discovered. Inferring this... if "our time" is part of the wheel we'd be experiencing those born with the spark if the pattern was still spinning out souls with the ability to channel.

The other thing that would occur overtime assuming a global Seanchan rule would be that channelers would be "bred" out of existence.

Finally, in regards to Avi's future visions I always had a hard time accepting them because they don't account for sane male channelers. Their existance in decent numbers makes it hard for me to believe that the Seanchan would win. Their use of Damane has several disadvantages... they can't link, they only "find" those with the spark and/or capture, and they don't use Angreal. In short, I don't see how they would win.

A few points here. Fields of Merilor, while underwhelming was important because it basically accomplished what should have been the direction from the get go and that is getting humanity (the light side of it anyway) focused on a singular goal of winning the LB.

In a world where the One Power is real, and prophesies (Calandor, Stone, etc...) are real and were fulfilled the people in it were remarkably in denial about the fact that the end was coming. Leaders were more concerned about their own personal gain vs survival which doesn't really make sense in a world where such things are real and have been demonstrated to exist. Yes, some people would still be idiots but most would focus on existing vs power.

Pretty much the non-shaido Aiel were the only ones that acted accordingly: Their prophesies were fulfilled and they started doing what needed to be done.

So Fields of Merilor did accomplish Rands purpose which was to get everyone moving in one direction so that all could survive.

I'm doing my 6th or 7th re-read of the series, and I'm currently nearing the end of The Shadow Rising. The thing that strikes me most is that I can remember quite well what happened up to Book 6, but everything after that is a blur. There are a few bits and pieces of good stuff, like Mat and Tylin, Cleansing Saidin, Saving Moiraine, Aviendha's Visions, etc, but they are quite few for what amounts to 8 books! I can remember more epic moments from the first two books than all 8 of those books combined.

 

As much as I love the series, Jordan lost his way after book 6. Everything that happened in books 6-14 could have fit into 3 books, easily. Sanderson was doing a better job, but not as good a job as needed. He got too focused on tying up all the loose ends when he should have just finished the series. From his 3 books, only 2 events mattered: Mat saving Moiraine, and the Last Battle. Moiraine could have easily been a mid-book climax. The Black Tower could have been dealt with in a single chapter.

I feel that way to a certain extent, but mostly just about 8 (PoD) and 10 (CoT). 7 had some good stuff in it... The bowl search was fun with the Mat interactions and the Golem fight. Also had the duel with Raitan that lead into the Fain/Bubble of evil fight. Then the Samael fight.

9 did also... I really enjoyed the Far Madding plot. The cleansing was cool. Also had Mat's escape.

The problems with 8-10 was that they started some overly long, drawn out, and usually boring plotlines (Elayne's politics, Perrin and Faile's Prophet/Shaido adventure, and Mat/Tuon courtship).

Some other points of discussion when it comes to the AoL Aeil:

1) Prior to the bore being drilled, there pretty much was one world government. "War" was a long forgotten word, right? If so then at that time what were the rule of the way of the leaf? Did that just mean that Aiel were vegan? I only say this because in an age of non-violence that I'd be surprised if the Way was only about being non-violent.

2) I think the Aiel's purpose in the AoL was more than just serving the Aes Sedai. It seemed like they were the only people that sang the song of growing. It would seem to me that in addition to being of service to Aes Sedai that they had similar roles of service to society.

 

 

The aiel failed to keep to the way of the lead, and they failed to get all the objects of power to safety iirc?

During Rand's time in the ter'angreal at Rhuidean the Dai'shain Aiel were following the Way of the Leaf the entire time.  When the Collam Daan was destroyed as Mierin and Beidomon bore a hole into the Dark One's prison, his ancestor was on the street, and not in attendance of his Aes Sedai.  All he said in the moment was that [the Aiel] failed.  He didn't explain it any other way.  And considering another of his ancestors saying farewell to his Aes Sedai, it was written that she smoothed his hair like she would to a child.

 

Looking at all that information, it seems that the Dai'shain Aiel were considered the moral core for the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends.  Almost like so'jihn, they were hereditary servants, but due to their following of the Way of the Leaf, the Aes Sedai 'protected' them from violence.  In return the Aiel served them.  And again, I think they were the voice of reason and morality for the Aes Sedai, who felt that they could do nearly anything they wanted as they were adept in using the power.  That leads to some strong arrogance, which perhaps was the need for the Aiel at that time.

I think that's an interesting train of thought, and there may be some truth to it... the author may have had some of it in somewhere mind? But it takes some leaps of logic through the text, and relies on facts not in direct evidence. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I just don't see it in the story.

 

I also don't think RJ had too much of an issue with arrogance as a character trait among the very powerful, except in the forsaken. Well, maybe the kings and queens and aes sedai got a bit heavy handed but for the most part that behavior and attitude seems to be excused by or at least inherent in their positions. And being arrogant I doubt the aiel's duty would be to keep them morally centered. Imo the failure is explained in the flashbacks in rhuidean for the most part

 

One thing that I've noted is that RJ seemed to be OK with arrogance as long as it came with a moral compass. One of the things with the Forsaken was that they were both arrogan, craved power, and would do anything to get it, whereas LTT was arrogant yet was a moral man (as evidenced by being with Ilyena vs Mierin).

So a few things... first though, this is a great thread topic.

1) One of the things that Rand discovered during his battle with the Dark One at the bore is that killing the Dark One would be just as bad as the Dark One winning in that people would be empty, robotic,and not quite have free will. So while the Age of Legends was very ideal from a perspective of conveniences, technology, health, weather, hunger, etc..., and very advanced in terms of OP use there were still problems. Human problems from ambition, jealousy, arrogance, failure, etc... still happened. Further evidence of this is the original purpose of the oath rods. They were used to "fix" certain behaviors.

2) The War of Power really started about 80-100 years after the bore. The effects of the Dark One's touch wasn't immediate. Remember that earliest passage of Rand's time in the ter'angreal. A man bumped into Rand's ancestor and was a jerk, but then immediately apologized once he became aware that he was Aeil. So, people were still people... there wasn't an avenue for pure evil like there was once the Dark One could touch the world.

3) I always interpreted the Aiel's failure as a few things. First their "mission" from the Aes Sedai was to take the ter'angreal and Avendesora somewhere once the breaking started. It's unclear if this was a specific location or not. Second would be that outside of the Jenn, that the Aeil stopped following the Way of the Leaf... but to me that's more of a cultural thing than "failing the Aes Seda". 

The taint flaw was revealed in book 8 after he almost destroyed everything. The woman element was revealed in 9.

Also in 8 was a lot of the residue from the gateway explosion. It's been a while since I read that book but if I recall both Saidar and Saidin in that area of the world was a little unpredictable. It was more than just Rand having the problems and also the two having an effect on the Power made Calandor's flaw less obvious.