I think in the hands of a different author the meat and heart of the series could have been done in about 8 books.

 

the hands of a different author would have been unable to extricate the "meat and the heart of the series" from the actual author's mind.

 

this was, is, and G-d willing, always will be, RJ's story, and this is the way he told it. he is the creator of this particular little universe. there are definitely things that frustrate me about it, and there are definitely valid criticisms to be made, as there are of any work - perfection isn't a human quality.

 

i'm a fairly critical person, so i do get the frustration y'all are expressing, and i've expressed it myself.

 

but the suggestion that someone else would have done a better job with RJ's story, his life's work, just seems insulting to his memory, to his work, and to those of us who, despite all criticism, love both. imo, anyway.

Maybe not another author, but the series could sure as hell use a more aggressive editor.

That's an interesting point, and exactly right, but to me, height is a relative measure. What matters is how tall a character is in relation to other people of his place and time.

The covers are awful. tEotW is probably the least bad, and it was bad enough to nearly keep me from picking it up.

The Great Hunt cover isn't actually bad, the colors are great, but the scene pictured never happens, which I don't like in book cover art.

Knife of Dreams just looks like a random bearded guy having a staff meeting. Possible the worst fantasy book cover art of all time.

There are some just plain bad books in the middle of the series, no doubt. If you have made it through CoT, you're almost through the worst. The next book, Knife of Dreams, is also awful. But then the last two are better. Not up to the standard of the first five books, but better.

KoD is also awfull ??? General opinion seems it's one of the best. It's a matter of taste, people. Please just grow up and stop saying "this one is good, this one is bad". You totally have the right to believe what you want, but please don't try to make it an absolute truth. It's YOUR opinion, and no more than that.

What is this "general opinion" you speak of? According to Amazon.com, which is a far greater sampling than a fansite message board

Yet it's no less flawed a sample. A self-selected cadre of vocal people on the internet is not a reliable guide to popularity.

 

And, of course, 'but most people disagree with you' in your parent post is a fallacious argument in any case, since the grandparent comment was about quality, not popularity, and of course everyone's entitled to their own opinion about that.

 

Edit: As for mine, since I don't think I stated it in my earlier reply, I like most of COT, except for the infamous Shaido shenanigans; most of Perrin's chapters are unpleasant reading, though the torture bit is kind of fun. Egwene's chapters are par for her course, but the rest of it is at least decent – and in the case of Mat and Karede's chapters, excellent.

I enjoyed Karede's scenes, and the Shaido hand-chopping (that was CoT, right?) I don't mean to suggest that CoT, or KoD for that matter, is valueless (hell, I have even re-read CoT). But I do think they rank low on the list.

Of course it's a matter of taste. Just as all of the people agreeing that CoT is awful are expressing their taste. The OP asked for opinions. Is the proper Aquarian response to say simply, "It's all just a matter of taste?"

The point was that there's a difference between saying "I didn't care for it" and saying "it's an awful book". Having it be your honest opinion doesn't excuse the crudeness. I'm glad that it was said by someone other than myself, but I was already considering asking you all to restrain the language you use. After all, if there ever was a place in which saying something like that might bother other people, it's here.

 

As for general opinion, take a look at that poll someone linked to on the first page. KoD doesn't seem that popular to me.

Not that popular? Sure, it's not many people's first choice, but if you take the time to read through people's comments, you'll find that it often ranks relatively high, and almost never near the end of the list.

So why is it OK to refer to CoT as an awful book, as virtually every poster in the thread has done?

As for the "crudeness" of the language (what's crude about the word "awful" anyway?) [The rest of this comment was removed by Luckers as inapropriately confrontational].

There are some just plain bad books in the middle of the series, no doubt. If you have made it through CoT, you're almost through the worst. The next book, Knife of Dreams, is also awful. But then the last two are better. Not up to the standard of the first five books, but better.

KoD is also awfull ??? General opinion seems it's one of the best. It's a matter of taste, people. Please just grow up and stop saying "this one is good, this one is bad". You totally have the right to believe what you want, but please don't try to make it an absolute truth. It's YOUR opinion, and no more than that.

Of course it's a matter of taste. Just as all of the people agreeing that CoT is awful are expressing their taste. The OP asked for opinions. Is the proper Aquarian response to say simply, "It's all just a matter of taste?"

As for general opinion, take a look at that poll someone linked to on the first page. KoD doesn't seem that popular to me.

 

I won't give away spoilers, but CoT really reads like an overly long prequel to Knife of Dreams. Most of the plot threads that don't get resolved in CoT get resolved in Knife of Dreams.

Exactly. All Knife of Dreams is is the second half of CoT. Anyone who finds the story arcs that were so painfully constructed in CoT annoying (as I do) is unlikely to love their resolutions in KoD. Except in the sense that at least if they're resolved, they're over.

Personally, I would put the first six books, plus the last two, ahead of Knife of Dreams. Making it, in my estimation, the 9th best book, not the second best. About all I can say for it is that it's better than CoT or WH.

There are some just plain bad books in the middle of the series, no doubt. If you have made it through CoT, you're almost through the worst. The next book, Knife of Dreams, is also awful. But then the last two are better. Not up to the standard of the first five books, but better.

Rand is exceptionally tall, fair, and red-haired.

Egwene is not tall, with fair skin but dark hair and eyes.

Mat is wiry, dark-haried and dark-eyed.

Perrin has brown hair and eyes.

Nynaeve, fair, dark eyes, dark hair.

Elayne, red-gold hair, blue eyes.

Aviendha, reddish hair, blue-green eyes.

Tuon, ebony skin, full lips.

Race is, quite intentionally I am sure, not a part of Rand-land. What we would call racial characteristics are just points of physical description. Which I find quite refreshing, actually.

Cultural differences are someething else.

There are many, many resources out there, but broadly:

Andor = England

Cairhein = France

Aeil seem to be racially Celtic, with Native American social organization and Zulu military tactics.

The Sheinarans are prety much Samuri, aren't they?

The Saldaeans are some sort of semitic people with a horse culture.

Tear sounds an awful lot like Spain.

Seanchan sure seems like Imperial China.

And on, and on.

That would be a good reason to refuse to allow Alanna to accompany her. To make her beg, but then allow it, is just a power play.

It's important to note that Cadsuane does not just bully people indiscriminately. She is capable of treating people, even people who should be beneath her in standing, with respect, where it is due - see Sorilea, Verin, Samitsu, Daigian, all examples of women treated positively by Cadsuane, not bullied, despite being a wilder and three AS who are weaker than her. Her treatment of Rand is very much an exception, not the rule. Her treatment of Tam was decidedly out of character, and I've not seen anyone put together a decent case to say otherwise. If Rand acts like a child, does he really have grounds to complain when he is treated as such? Cadsuane doesn't bully people, she bullies Rand, there is a big difference.

She bullies all of the Aes Sedai she comes into contact with, including Verin. She bullies Tam. She bullies the Sea Folk. It isn't just Rand. Bullying is her standard modus oprandi. Her silly little games with tea and trivial tasks serve no purpose but to emphasize her own dominance.

 

Characters can have personality flaws and still be interesting characters. Indeed, some personality flaws contribute to our interest in a character, as long as they are not so deeply and irredeemably flawed as the Super Girls. Cadsuane is an interesting character, and a bully.

Would you care to provide some evidence to support your point?

How about...oh...the books?

Start with Winter's Heart, and her actions toward the Aes Sedai and Windfinders. Why would she, for example, make Alanna beg on her knees for the right to go to Rand?

She's a bully. With any other poster on the board, I'd be happy to have a continuing conversation about it. But I don't have the energy for dealing with repeated, pendantic, point-by-point multiposts right now, so let's just agree to disagree.

It's important to note that Cadsuane does not just bully people indiscriminately. She is capable of treating people, even people who should be beneath her in standing, with respect, where it is due - see Sorilea, Verin, Samitsu, Daigian, all examples of women treated positively by Cadsuane, not bullied, despite being a wilder and three AS who are weaker than her. Her treatment of Rand is very much an exception, not the rule. Her treatment of Tam was decidedly out of character, and I've not seen anyone put together a decent case to say otherwise. If Rand acts like a child, does he really have grounds to complain when he is treated as such? Cadsuane doesn't bully people, she bullies Rand, there is a big difference.

She bullies all of the Aes Sedai she comes into contact with, including Verin. She bullies Tam. She bullies the Sea Folk. It isn't just Rand. Bullying is her standard modus oprandi. Her silly little games with tea and trivial tasks serve no purpose but to emphasize her own dominance.

Characters can have personality flaws and still be interesting characters. Indeed, some personality flaws contribute to our interest in a character, as long as they are not so deeply and irredeemably flawed as the Super Girls. Cadsuane is an interesting character, and a bully.

I'm not going to defende Cadsuane. The best that can be said about her is that she is a crotchety old woman with valuable experience to share, but very little in the way of tact, humility or discretion. She is an outright bully, as evidenced by how she treated Tam, but even moreso by her treatment of the other Aes Sedai.

That said, I'm not sure we can blame her too much for not apologizing to Rand. I simply don't believe that she is capable of self-criticism or genuine regret. She couldn't apologize to Rand anymore than Mat could break his promises. Her insufferable arrogance is who she is, inextricably linked to her entire sense of self.

It may actually have killed her to apologize.

On the plus side, I put the chances of this particular character surviving at the end of the series at MAYBE 5%.