She's not hungry for personal power. She is hungry for greater power for her organization. That may be realistic, and even appropriate for someone in her position, but there is no reason we have to find it endearing. The Captains-General of the Whitecloaks may not all have been hungering for personal power either. So what?

Regardless, the books make it clear that no one can break a circle of 13. So, Egwene could have held Rand captive if she wanted to.

 

I, on the other hand, just assumed that Egwene was subconsciously recognizing that the pattern would not allow that, not that she actually thought that Rand could break through shielding by 26 sisters. I mean, if she tried to give the order, who knows what would have happened? Perhaps a chunk of poorly repaired ceiling would break and hit her in the head, knocking her out. Perhaps all 26 sisters would spontaneously decide to swear fealty to the Dragon (or maybe just the two leading the circles).

Exactly. We already have evidence of that sort of twisting of the Pattern, with Cads. Egwene could not have held him.

- Egwene had Rand shielded and surrounded by hundreds of Aes Sedai. If she wanted to stop him right away, she could have kept him in the WT. She had a strong justification since he announced that he'll break the seals. I don't think A.S. would have objected to that.

 

She doesn't think so. She said so explicitly.

 

She said it so to Silviana, a Red, to justify letting him go. The laws governing the OP in the books state clearly that a circle of 13 maintained by the 13 will shield any male channeler and cannot be broken. Rand's time in Galina's box is another proof. That's how I understand the issue. If it doesn't work that way, I'd like to read more on it.

So she lied? Interesting. Logically, it follows that she must be Black. I thought you liked Egwene?

 

- Egwene had Rand shielded and surrounded by hundreds of Aes Sedai. If she wanted to stop him right away, she could have kept him in the WT. She had a strong justification since he announced that he'll break the seals. I don't think A.S. would have objected to that.

She doesn't think so. She said so explicitly.

In his circle? I certainly think that is possible. Avi, Alivia and Tuon are all frequently mentioned possibilities, and none is an AS.

If I were betting, I would bet on Nynaeve being one, but we don't know that she will be.

Actually, Rand says he will need "the women", not AS per say.

Now, as for the apparent lack of any research effort during the entire month she has had since that meeting, with access to the World's largest community of scholars and greatest library...

 

Yeah, I've always thought Rand should have put Cads and Min together with the Browns in the WT library in order to figure out the plan.

Sure. But it is telling, I think, that Cads never suggested such a thing.

Now, as for the apparent lack of any research effort during the entire month she has had since that meeting, with access to the World's largest community of scholars and greatest library...

 

As the books stand right now, the same could be said about a few things that Rand should have done and is likely to have done; but we're not told about directly.

 

Even without that, any meaningful research would require Cadsuane and Callandor (and Min) to be in the WT to participate in the research. Any "Literature" research would not suffice. Meaningful (laboratory) research would require Callandor to be used and experimented with. And the key to that is Rand, not Egwene!

Possibly true. But not known to Egwene. And so, no excuse for her not trying.

Egwene is acting both as Rand wants, and, importantly, as the Pattern requires. Have you considered the possibilty that Rand himself had no real choice in how to proceed? Being ta'veren is not a personal skill that can be employed at will. It is being a focal point around which the Wheel twists the Pattern. There is no true agency in the world of the WoT.

Egwene was clearly caught in a ta'verens grip during her confrontation with Rand, and therefore should be absolved for any blame for that comfrontation, irritating as she was during it.

Now, as for the apparent lack of any research effort during the entire month she has had since that meeting, with access to the World's largest community of scholars and greatest library...

If only the head of "the greatest repository of knowledge in the world" had shown any interest in using the resources at her disposal to research strategies, eh? But no, it is just peachy if that person simply states, "Surely Rand can find a way to defeat the Dark One without breaking the Seals" and proceeds to use those resources to pursue her own political ends instead.

 

I know, I know, in fact she has, of course, been going to tremendous efforts to prepare for the Last Battle and guard against the Seanchan. Those preparations simply all happened off-screen. And, of course, there is no possibility that Rand might have made similar off-screen plans, because only Mary Sue can be absolved of seeming inaction by reference to such alleged off-screen actions.

 

Noting that there might just be a tiny bit of a double standard at play here does, of course, make me a mouth-breathing sexist. Just ask any gibbering fool with poor reading comprehension skills.

 

Sorry mate but did I imply any of that? Please don't start one of your odd sexist rants with me. You know I have never subscribed to that. I mean seriously, I say they should have cooperated with each other and this is the response I get?

Oh, I know that you don't subscribe to the idiotic sexism argument. But that other post was too dumb to justify the effort of a reply of its' own, so I threw it into this one. In general, my quoting in replies doesn't necessarily mean the entire post is a response to the quote; it means the quote contains something I wish to start off responding to.

As for the cooperation you advocate, you know that Egwene does no more of it than Rand.

Honestly, I don't really blame Egwene much for her reaction to Rand's plan. Not because her unthinking opposition is rational; it is not. But because she was clearly caught in the thrall of a ta'veren, and therefore isn't actually responsible for her actions. I even absolve her of any blame for the rather incredible lack of self-awareness evidenced in her, "Rand al'Thor, you will not turn your back on the Amyrlin Seat!" statement, for the same reason.

We hear again and again that we don't know that Egwene hasn't taken steps to improve the Aes Sedai's rather pathetic abilities to counter the Seanchan or Shadowspawn, because it could have happened off-screen. And that we don't know that she hasn't set up a massive research effort to assist Rand in figuring out the problem of the seals, because it could have happened off-screen (even though we have on-screen evidence that she is using the Aes Sedai best suited for such an effort for other purposes). But in spite of this willingness to believe that Egwene is doing all the right things off-screen, there seems to be this enduring assumption that Rand does nothing offscreen, and is just going to show up and hope things go well.

Why is that?

Rand acted as he did for reasons unknown, and because of that we can't judge whether he was right to act as he did.

 

Agreed, but until we know those reasons, I can't help but think the world would have been better served by him laying out his plan and requesting aid from the greatest repository of knowledge in the world. Instead he purposely provoked her and placed the world's fate on a mining girl from Baerlon being able to find the all the answers for defeating the DO.

If only the head of "the greatest repository of knowledge in the world" had shown any interest in using the resources at her disposal to research strategies, eh? But no, it is just peachy if that person simply states, "Surely Rand can find a way to defeat the Dark One without breaking the Seals" and proceeds to use those resources to pursue her own political ends instead.

I know, I know, in fact she has, of course, been going to tremendous efforts to prepare for the Last Battle and guard against the Seanchan. Those preparations simply all happened off-screen. And, of course, there is no possibility that Rand might have made similar off-screen plans, because only Mary Sue can be absolved of seeming inaction by reference to such alleged off-screen actions.

Noting that there might just be a tiny bit of a double standard at play here does, of course, make me a mouth-breathing sexist. Just ask any gibbering fool with poor reading comprehension skills.

If you couldn't really care less about her, then it's completely normal and expected political jockeying. Everyone sees what they want to see in her, which simultaneously makes her the best and the worst character in the series, depending on who you are.

 

Well said, because of course this is precisely what it is. Any separate powers entering into an alliance/exchange would not only do the same but they would be derelict if they did not.

That's fine, and by far the stronger argument.

The notion that "bindings of lace" is a "metaphor for cooperation" is ridiculous.

Why would Egwene have the half-regretful thought that she does, if that is what "lace" meant? Cooperation would be acceptable to all parties. Egwene knows that she has maneuvered the Aiel into something they will come to regret.

Well if you want an explanation, here's one:

 

Rand is the HERO. We get mostly his PoV's at first, then we get mostly his PoV's in every situation he is. We see almost everything from his PoV for a few books. From the PoV of a guy who is going mad.

 

Lots of people never really manage to see the series from any other PoV, not really. They get stuck there.

 

Now Egwene dares think bad things about their hero. How COULD SHE?

 

Conclusion: Egwene = BAD. So let's start finding the reasons why.

 

Please stop. You're just making your side look bad.

 

I don't have a side.

I don't know what it is I should stop as this is my only post.

I took the question of the topic-starter seriously and answered it as well as I could. This is about 90% of the REASON. Sure, there are other things too, but this is the source of it.

Ummm, no. Wrong. Also, kinda dumb. People like Moridin, for God's sake. Even though he thinks "bad things about our hero." Because he is an interesting and well-written character. In stark contrast to certain others.

You seem to forget the part where she afterwards think(Or talk, can't remember exactly) about how she will tie toe Aiel to the Tower, in an attempt to ensure The Towers dominance of the other channeling factions.

 

This is a somewhat common misconception but it quite clearly has not much to do with "ensuring dominance", as has been shown by various people time and time again on these boards. She says she will tie them with "lace" which is of course a metaphor for cooperation. The channeler exchange program is equal, fair and gives none of the groups any advantage over the others. It will foster cooperation and understanding while the Accepted are going to have quite a rude awakening when they show up to train with the other groups. That will surely do prospective AS a great deal of good in the long run.

 

Now attempting to gain the upper hand in the deal is another matter and you are mistaken if you think the AS will be the only ones jockeying to lead. You are telling me the WFs and Sorilea will not be doing the same? This is made quite clear with the "Then we have to play the best" quote. The deal puts all groups on equal ground, it's not like the AS somehow get a leg up in the situation. This whole concept that it is a secret AS domination plot is patently absurd.

That's absurd, and you know better. Binding the Aiel to the Tower with lace simply means that her bindings will not, at first, seem to be such. They will be disguised, and attractive. The exchange program, for example. There is no reason to think that this is a metaphor for cooperation. Why would she even have the thought we see in her POV, if this was about cooperation? The Aiel wouldn't object to cooperation.

Frankly, the better argument people have made in attempting to excuse Egwene in this instance is the "Of course she in manuevering for the advantgae of the Tower, that's her job." Claiming she is just interested in a cooperative arrangement between equals is not supported by the text.

Gawyn was a Tower trainee. He had some sort of obligation to the Tower as an institution. We are not told the exact nature of the trainees obligation to the Tower, but it almost certainly involved legal duties of some sort, formalized with an oath.

 

The President of the United States is impeached for high crimes, and removed from office by the Congress, which has the legal authority to do so. Certain senior military officers like the current President better than the alternative, and so conspire to unlawfully return the impeached President to power. A West Point cadet discovers this conspiracy and has the ability to stop it. You're claiming he should not do so?

 

Christ, I can't believe you're making me defend Gawyn.

 

I don't agree with the way you're viewing this. Gawyn wasn't a West Point trainee, if anything he was similar to a British (for example as I'm British) soldier who had been sent to West Point as part of a joint training exercise (it's not identical to this I know). When the President is deposed what right does the British soldier have to get involved in the internal politics of another sovereign country without direct orders from his own high command. Since he didn't receive orders from either Morgase (his queen), Elayne (Morgase's representative) or the Captain General of the Andoran Army (whoever it was who replaced Gareth Bryne) he should not have got involved despite having the ability to do so. You can imagine the political ramifications if a British soldier took it on his head to act in the way Gawyn did, while serving alongside US troops in the US.

We don't know the exact nature of Gawyn's responsibilities to the Tower. He could have responsibilities more akin to a foriegn enlistee than an exchange student. And not knowing the exact nature of his relationship with the Tower, we can't assume he is interpreting that relationship incorrectly just because he is a prat and we like Siuan.

And for your hypothetical British soldier, he would be lauded to the skies in such a circumstance. Do you really believe otherwise?

I have a theory as to all the Egwene hate.

It is because she is written to life like. She is the girl we all went to high school with who was into everything. She was into student government, probably a cheerleader, decorated at all the dances, she may not have been a 10 but at least an 8, got good grades and all the teachers and staff loved her. Unless you were that girl or in her click you probably couldn't stand her. I think most of the Egwene haters are people who were not in the "in" crowd in high school.

She then left her small town (Two Rivers) went off to college in the big city (Tar Varlon). She continued to succeed due to her smarts and hard work but the because she is being fast tracked people think she is a kiss ass and being given everything they nit pick everything about her and exaggerate her flaws. Any thing she says they believe is arrogant and conceded.

 

So basicaly the Egwene hate all boils down to Jealousy.

 

 

Probably the biggest reason I dislike Egwene is posts like this one. If you don't just luuuuvvvv Egwene, you are jealous/sexist/too young or old or tall or fat to understand her.

 

Utter garbage.

 

Boom. I knew that was coming the second I read his post. Everyone knows what side of the Egwene debate I fall on but the whole jealousy thing just doesn't hold much weight. I do think how ever many people seem to be resentful at how she has gone about accomplishing everything in a somewhat unrealistic manner. To me that is somewhat unfair when we have others gaining skills from magic wishes and the like.

The problem is that Egwene gains skills and accomplishments in an unrealistic manner OUTSIDE of the series' magic system. We don't expect a character's development of magical powers to be realistic. We do expect skills such as political accumen, leadership, etc (skills that have some connection to the real world, and should not require the suspension of disbelief) to be in some way realistic. If you think about it, Egwene critics don't get too worked up about her abilities with the Power. No one criticizes her for so quickly developing great facility with the creation of cuendillar, or her ability to delve for metals. It is her entirely unrealistic attainment of abilities that have a basis in reality that are criticized.

The same could be said of her, ummm, extremely high self-esteem. Beleiving yourself to be special because you can do magic, or are a ta'veren, or have supernatural luck? Doesn't bother anyone. Believing you have all of the answers, not because you are an instrument of the pattern or because the savior of the world resides in your head, but simply because you are super-extra-special and got some advice from someone who used to hold your job? Problem.

Add to that the authors' seeming lack of awareness of the Mary Sue-ness of the character (in contrast to every other character) and it adds up to, for many, a character with little redeeming value.

And since the original poster of this nonsence is so interested, no, I was not in fact a cheerleader. But I was all-state in two sports, and did naughty, naughty things with several cheerleaders :) Granted, that was back in my more hirsuite days...

I have a theory as to all the Egwene hate.

It is because she is written to life like. She is the girl we all went to high school with who was into everything. She was into student government, probably a cheerleader, decorated at all the dances, she may not have been a 10 but at least an 8, got good grades and all the teachers and staff loved her. Unless you were that girl or in her click you probably couldn't stand her. I think most of the Egwene haters are people who were not in the "in" crowd in high school.

She then left her small town (Two Rivers) went off to college in the big city (Tar Varlon). She continued to succeed due to her smarts and hard work but the because she is being fast tracked people think she is a kiss ass and being given everything they nit pick everything about her and exaggerate her flaws. Any thing she says they believe is arrogant and conceded.

 

So basicaly the Egwene hate all boils down to Jealousy.

Probably the biggest reason I dislike Egwene is posts like this one. If you don't just luuuuvvvv Egwene, you are jealous/sexist/too young or old or tall or fat to understand her.

Utter garbage.

Nynaeve is my favorite character fighting for the light.. so it really annoyed me when Egwene was acting all self righteous and insulted Nynaeve for being "so reckless" in T'A'R when she herself had basically almost got sucked into Gawyn's dream among several other near death experiences that was a direct result of her hypocrisy and arrogance. Oh.. and every other instance of her belittling Nynaeve after realizing that she could.

 

Might have asked you this before but Nynaeve's bullying never bothered you at all? Not to mention much of the humor around her character is based on her acting in a hypocritical fashion. Does it not just hit as hard because it is played to comedic effect?

Of course it doesn't hit as hard because it is played for comedic effect. Nynaeve's flaws and hypocricy are very in-your-face, whereas it is not entirely clear that Jordan was aware of just how much of a Mary-Sue Egwene is.

For the OP, just read the first 2-3 pages of any of the past threads. That's usually how long it takes the discussion to come apart.

Gawyn was a Tower trainee. He had some sort of obligation to the Tower as an institution. We are not told the exact nature of the trainees obligation to the Tower, but it almost certainly involved legal duties of some sort, formalized with an oath.

The President of the United States is impeached for high crimes, and removed from office by the Congress, which has the legal authority to do so. Certain senior military officers like the current President better than the alternative, and so conspire to unlawfully return the impeached President to power. A West Point cadet discovers this conspiracy and has the ability to stop it. You're claiming he should not do so?

Christ, I can't believe you're making me defend Gawyn.

Gawyn is, beyond question, guilty of egregious douchebaggery. But your example is not a good one. Gawyn had no reason to believe Suian's deposing was improper. Neither did the Warders who attempted to free her. As far as either group knew, Suian was properly removed. Gawyn was following the law as established.

And that's without even getting into the fact that joining an organization does not deprive one of moral agency. If he felt the actions of the rebel Warders to be unlawful and wrong, he should have opposed them. The same goes for those rebel Warders themselves.

Not to mention the fact that bragging about an average of 33 books read each year is rather sad. There were times in my life when I read several a week; I'm still at more than 1 a week, even with a stressful job and a family.

 

It ain't bragging if it is the truth. How sad that you think you have the right to judge me. I am not judging you.

The point is that it isn't a large number. It ain't bragging if it is ...not impressive.

Not to mention the fact that bragging about an average of 33 books read each year is rather sad. There were times in my life when I read several a week; I'm still at more than 1 a week, even with a stressful job and a family.

Because popularity = quality. Got it.

I assume you are a huge fan of Stephanie Meyer?

Five ride forth, and four return.Above the Watchers Over the Waves shall he proclaim himself,bannered 'cross the sky in fire.

 

When the Dragon is Reborn he will break all oaths, shatter all ties.

 

Maybe this just means he'll break the oath rod, or end the practice somehow. I love how people seem to think they know what a prophecy means just cause some characters quoted it in relation to decisions they made they wanted to chalk up to the pattern.

Well, if you're applying that standard (the piece you have quoted is a direct quote from the written prophecy, not something said by a character) then none of the prophecies, foretellings, visions, dreams, etc can be relied upon. In which case Dragonmount.com might as well close up shop.

Besides, what would "shatter all ties mean?" Something about neck wear?

There is no way you could possibly have read Uno's comment as sarcastic. He was saying it in the context of swearing fealty to Rand, something I imagine he took rather seriously.