It does mean, if these people take their own metaphysics seriously at all, that the old bonds are no longer binding. People may choose to renew them, or not.

 

This is what I was getting at. Evidence of widespread acceptance?

I gave you three people, from three different, widely separated countries, quoted in the books.

I'm looking forward to this part, myself:

"What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up."

Five ride forth, and four return.Above the Watchers Over the Waves shall he proclaim himself,bannered 'cross the sky in fire.

When the Dragon is Reborn he will break all oaths, shatter all ties.

Read the post immediately above yours, a direct quote from the Karaethon Cycle.

Breaking bonds needn't mean the immediate replacement of the ruler. It does mean, if these people take their own metaphysics seriously at all, that the old bonds are no longer binding. People may choose to renew them, or not.

As for direct quotes: Both Uno and Ituralde, off the top of my head. I don't have the books with me.

Oh, and Aludra too.

and he shall break the world again by his coming,

tearing apart all ties that bind.

People are also conflating two issues. An attempt to depose Rand if he declared himself King is not the same thing as an attempt to depose Elayne if she received help from the Dragon. Which, after all, she did. Those nobles in Caemlyn didn't declare for the throne when Rand was there, did they?

Breaking all bonds /= becoming Dragonsworn.

The prophecy is quite clear, and well known.

Obviously, the people currently advantaged by those bonds don't like the fact that they are now optional.

So pointing out that the Dragon breaks all bonds, as is stated many, many times in the texts and accepted by virtually everyone in-world, is "rote ideology", but some nobles engaging in cost-free blustering is gospel?

Note also: One need not become Dragonsworn in order for old bounds to no longer bind.

There is significant reason to doubt whether Andorans would unite against Rand. And in any case, the question is both moot (since he left) and pointless (since even if they did, they would have been slaughtered.) As others have pointed out, there is no chance that the Aiel would fail to notice an Andoran mobilization, and they could defeat the Andorans even if they did.

Which leaves the situation at this: "Accepting" the throne from the Dragon would not have caused Elayne to be thrown off the throne, especially as she had the strongest claim under Andoran law. What it would have done is caused her political difficulties later.

So the question, ultimately, is how many lives should be expended in a pointless civil war, on the eve of TG, in order to spare Elayne political difficulties in the post-TG world?

My answer: Zero.

Right, it's a feudal system based on mutual obligation. The peasants must fill the nobles levies, when called.

Except that now they don't. The Dragon breaks all bonds, and Andor has easily its share of Dragonsworn.

Other dislikes: Darrell K. Sweet

 

+1

 

That was so obvious I forgot to mention it. Terrible covers =/

 

A pretty funny and spot on comparison of the the Sweet covers vs the new ebook covers:

 

Cover comparison

A good comparison. And even if it results in my condemnation by the Emus and Sunnys of the world: i can haz Moiraine?

Oh, they don't like him, for sure.

 

I don't see anything that suggests they will actually engage in a suicidal war to remove him, and much to suggest that they would not.

 

Except for Dyelin's assertion that they would, that was backed up by other major noble houses.

 

What in the text suggests they would not? Your Gaebril analogy isn't comparable as he didn't have a foreign army of Aiel at his back and was already tied to the throne through Morgase.

Dyelin, backed by the other nobles present, states that she would oppose him. You are not, I'm sure, suggesting that that means the common people would necessarily do the same? That sure isn't how it worked in other Randland countries, when the Aiel or the Seanchan came.

Rand has a foreign army of Aiel, each one of which is worth several Andoran armsmen, and who outnumber the Andorans besides. And that will make armed conflict MORE likely? Of course not. It will make grumbling more likely, make passive resistance more likely, maybe even make raids on supply columns and the like more likely. But there is nothing in the response of the Andoran people to the coming End Times that makes a "Manethern at Aemon's Field"-type popular uprising likely.

Rahvin demonstrated that the Andorans would, in fact, accept a male ruler. If Rand were revealed to be not only Andoran, but even the issue of the Andoran royal house, and the Aiel brought notable stability to a nation which had been on the edge of chaos, the story could well have been different.

In any case, the question was, "Why not use the One Power?" And the answer is, "She does, even in possible (likely) violation of the Three Oaths."

But isn't it the Andoran position that the Two Rivers is part of Andor? Meaning Rand is in fact "one of them" and not "a black-eyed Aielman?"

 

And you accuse Ares of moving goalposts? A foreign army, and not just foreign but Aiel, the wounds from the Aiel War are still fresh and have to be in the front of everyone's mind. In addition they have been taking the fifth in other countries(looting in the eyes of Andorans). As for Rand, read my last post... he is viewed as an "invader" and the DR whose place is not in Andor. The quotes make it clear what the nobles and commoners think despite how many hairs you attempt to split.

Oh, they don't like him, for sure.

I don't see anything that suggests they will actually engage in a suicidal war to remove him, and much to suggest that they would not. The clear lesson of the experience with Rahvin is that if the "legitimate" ruler (by traditional Andoran standards) isn't getting the job done, the people are willing to look beyond their historical preferences.

And yeah, Mister A moves the goalposts.

Nothing made in TAR can be brought out.

Except arrows, thorns....

But isn't it the Andoran position that the Two Rivers is part of Andor? Meaning Rand is in fact "one of them" and not "a black-eyed Aielman?"

Ok regarding Andor's 200,000 man army- it would take months for them to get that many men together, trained and equipped. Not to mention you couldn't hide that many men. wouldn't be much of an issue to simply take the Aiel and rout

what army was already standing, and harry any attempt to form another army. These Andormen don't seem to take t he Aiel too seriously, similarly neither did the Tairens. They learned better though.

 

That is certainly correct. The Andorans had zero chance of removing the Dragon's forces. Even if they could unite, which there is no reason to believe that they would. People seem to forget that half the population of Caemlyn was ready to accept a king in Morgase's place.

 

The reason to believe they would is shown in Dyelin's quote provided earlier. She says she will go against the DR if he stays and other powerful house also chime in with their assent. With how patriotic Andorans are combined with the view the general populace holds is more than enough evidence that Andor would have risen together. They may not have been successful but it is perfectly clear that they would have made the attempt.

Again, half the population of Caemlyn was ready to accept a replacement for Morgase who was a living embodiement of everything Andorans supposedly find unacceptable in a leader. Dyelin is not an omniscient narrator; she's just a character.

Would some have made an attempt? Probably. But some nobles would have worked to their own advantage, and many commoners would have made common cause with the providers of stability. There is no way there would be 200,000 Andoran troops taking the field against the Aiel.

Ok regarding Andor's 200,000 man army- it would take months for them to get that many men together, trained and equipped. Not to mention you couldn't hide that many men. wouldn't be much of an issue to simply take the Aiel and rout

what army was already standing, and harry any attempt to form another army. These Andormen don't seem to take t he Aiel too seriously, similarly neither did the Tairens. They learned better though.

 

That is certainly correct. The Andorans had zero chance of removing the Dragon's forces. Even if they could unite, which there is no reason to believe that they would. People seem to forget that half the population of Caemlyn was ready to accept a king in Morgase's place.

Refresh my memory...when was that stated?

Review the circumstances of Rand's first-time arrival in Caemlyn.

Ok regarding Andor's 200,000 man army- it would take months for them to get that many men together, trained and equipped. Not to mention you couldn't hide that many men. wouldn't be much of an issue to simply take the Aiel and rout

what army was already standing, and harry any attempt to form another army. These Andormen don't seem to take t he Aiel too seriously, similarly neither did the Tairens. They learned better though.

That is certainly correct. The Andorans had zero chance of removing the Dragon's forces. Even if they could unite, which there is no reason to believe that they would. People seem to forget that half the population of Caemlyn was ready to accept a king in Morgase's place.

Yes, these particular friends needed to be brought down a few pegs. Not left in the hands of Darkfriends, obviously. But "brought down a few pegs" is a perfectly accurate description of the necessary corrective. It was eventually accomplished by Birgitte, of course.

Besides, the fact that TG is on the horizon is an argument against a new, teenaged queen. Whatever title you want to give her.

What would have made sense is for Elayne to propose Dyelin in such a role. But the ambitions of queens, princesses and other such useless parasites is not to be denied by the prospect of something so minor as the end of the world.

I don't know if "Selfish" is the right word, but "Self-Absorbed" certainly seems fair.

She has a pattern of repeatedly getting herself in trouble. To get her out of trouble, people die. And she never spares a thought for those people. That's a problem, for me.

That's a raiding party, not an army. He hardly needs all of the armies of the world gathered at the FoM to repeat that. He could come up with that number of Aeil in an hour, just as he tell Itarulde.

The real battle is at Mount Doom, not the Black Gate.

No one has said he will do it alone, just that the armies are an irrelevancy. LTT didn't bring armies, either.

So is Rand going to destroy those hordes of Shadowspawn by himself? As well as fight the remaining Forsaken?

 

Did Lews Therin Telamon "win" the War of Power by himself? He wasn't even able to seal the Dark One's prison by himself.

 

Rand is not the Creator. He is not a god. He is needed to win but he also needs others to win. To think anything else is illogical.

No, to think anything else is to have read the books.

Rand's job is to seal the Dark One away from the world. Rampaging trollocs, while unpleasant I'm sure, do not represent an existential threat to the universe.

In order to seal the Dark One away, he will need help. But not from those armies. From a small band (maybe as few as 2) others.

The armies need to fight the trollocs, other shadowspawn, Foresaken etc. in order to preserve their own lives and homes. They are not essential to the actual last battle.

To think anything else is illogical.

He does not lose..he does not need them to fight the battle at SG. He does not need armies for that. He will do his part with a small no of people he trusts. They will go with him regardless of whether he breaks the seals or not. Egwene is not a part of that. He does not even consider her along with Ny as someone to use Callander with him.

 

The armies have to fight to save their homes..he says it again and again. He can organize them but he cannot fight for them. If they don't fight Trollocs will eat them!!

XXX47 is right about this. Rand does not need those armies, and he won't be bargaining for their support. He'll be bargaining (or forcing, if needed) for their compliance with the Dragon's Peace.

If the combined armies say, "No, you must not do this" the impact will be...absolutely nothing. That is what would make Egwene's plan a stupid one, if in fact it were a plan and if in fact she were acting on her on volition.

Darlin is King of Tear, but Rand is still in control of Tear and gives him orders, so ultimately it's mostly his responsibility.

Not if Darlin acts on his own. Like by obeying Egwene's summons when he is supposed to be mustering the Tairens, for example.