What if the price to be paid to resurrect Rand is sealing off the One Power (and the True Power) to everyone, forever, going forward in time? The WOT universe goes on like our own reality. No magic at all, for anyone?

So, I see what you are saying and I did not read through the comments but I wanted to add this.

I would think along different lines and not put it as blunt as Nyneave healing death. Through out the entire series they talk about the "pattern" and "weaving". If Rand and Lews are the same person "Technically" then Nyneave is offered two choices to "revive" Rand.

At a key point in time, Nyneave could "weave" a change in the thread of the pattern itself. Either repairing it (essentially bringing a character back to life), or splice it separating Lews Therin and Rand so that they become separate. In time for Rand to do what needs to be done and Lews to finally make the sane choice to redeem himself in his own eyes.

Making the splice would be a good choice and possibly give Rand a chance at becoming more of his old self. Changing his identity and living out his life with 3 gorgeous woman. What a jerk! But I hope it happens! lol

What if the price to be paid to resurrect Rand is sealing off the One Power (and the True Power) to everyone, forever, going forward in time? The WOT universe goes on like our own reality. No magic at all, for anyone?

there is no end to the turning of the wheel of time...

So, I see what you are saying and I did not read through the comments but I wanted to add this.

 

I would think along different lines and not put it as blunt as Nyneave healing death. Through out the entire series they talk about the "pattern" and "weaving". If Rand and Lews are the same person "Technically" then Nyneave is offered two choices to "revive" Rand.

 

At a key point in time, Nyneave could "weave" a change in the thread of the pattern itself. Either repairing it (essentially bringing a character back to life), or splice it separating Lews Therin and Rand so that they become separate. In time for Rand to do what needs to be done and Lews to finally make the sane choice to redeem himself in his own eyes.

 

Making the splice would be a good choice and possibly give Rand a chance at becoming more of his old self. Changing his identity and living out his life with 3 gorgeous woman. What a jerk! But I hope it happens! lol

i see rand and mat as vvery similar characters in this apsec... they both have memories of their previous lives... difference being, that rands previous life, was insane... i belive the "hearing voices" was a psychological effect of rands mind protecting itself from that insanity... rand has always been lews... and as of ToM, there is no longer a line of division between them...

two glasses of water are seperate and unique, but when mixed, there is no way to seperate them again

Mark, I think when Rand used the power in the Eye of the World, he was connected to with a thick strand of Light. That could be the connection to the Creator. He used up all the saidin in the Eye, but the connection could still remain. It was, after all, when he was using the Eye that the capitalized voice (most assume it was the Creator) spoke to him.

i completely agree, most people forget about the eye, as it happened so long ago, and it was pooly explained(or understood)... tho that does raise one question... i forget which forsaken it was tthat fought rand at the eye, but he was drawing on it too... could someone be connected to both creator and DO? aparently.

and, as evidence to support that the eye was a connection to the creator... when the forsaken was drawing on it, it was restoring his health... rebuilding muscle, flesh, etc... even nynaeve couldnt heal rands hand that had been blown away... the OP can heal whats there, but it cannot replace...

then the question is... if rand is bound to the creator, and the DO (aparently) doesnt need help to resurrect people bound to him, why would the creator need nyaneve to "heal death"? couldnt the creator just do it?

Don't forget that Rand also is connected to the DO, that's how he broke out of Semirhage's A'dam and later channeled the TP. Complete aside I know, but yes it apparently is possible, in any case.

Anyhoo, the creator has stated he will not take part directly, so in all likelihood it will either be something like you suggested earlier, Nynaeve discovering a way to resurrect somebody tied to the creator, or else drawing from the power in such a way that it is not feasible to do normally except when having a little passive cooperation from the creator in some way. How, I don't know.

The former solution sounds almost like a variation upon christianity, which could be a point, if I don't recall incorrectly RJ was christian?

well... we dont know if rand is tied to the DO, i tend to think not... we do know, that he is bonded in some way to moridin, and he has the "right" to touch the TP.... whether that was the souce of rands ability, or the DO lied saying that only those with permission could touch it... dangerous yes, stupid to do it without permission(or with for that matter) yes... possible to touch it without permission... i dont know... we know the characters in the WoT are often wrong... and we've yet to have any proof one way or the other...

I'm not sure whether the quote "To live, you must die" refers to Rand or possibly LTT dying. Either seems possible to me. When considering Nynaeve bringing Rand back to life in the body that he currently possesses as the DO has done for his followers, having his soul possibly stay attached to his body for three days while she brings it back... Are we forgetting that the DO gave his followers new bodies??? For example, Osangar, and Aran Gar, as well as Cyndane (Lanfear.)

As to Nynaeve learning to bring people back from the deas as the DO does, plausible. Except that the DO is able to bring back followers because he is the "Lord of the Grave." So, if the DO is the "Lord of the Grave," then it stands that he would not allow anyone he is not favorable with to be brought back. Ok, ok, if he is dead or defeated he can't much help it, but when speaking of Nynaeve learning the weaves to bring people back during the last battle, there are a few difficulties.

To begin, this means the DO would have to perform the weaves meaning one of his servants would have to be killed and him have the desire to bring them back at the time that Nynaeve is around to see what is done assuming that this servant is not destroyed by balefire.. I do not see the likelihood of one of the Forsaken being destroyed in a manner other than balefire since we know that some of our key people have the knowledge of its weave and we know that Rand has shown these weaves to his followers as a means of destroying the Forsaken permanately.

Second, Nynaeve learning the weaves from the DO assumes that she is somehow able to view the weaving as it is done. Unless the DO decides to use the male half of the One Power for some odd reason while Nynaeve is linked to Rand and able to see these weaves, I do not see how that is possible. This assumes that the DO does not use his own source, the "True Source" that only the Forsaken are able to access until Rand so recently tapped that violent power himself. Ok, so assuming that Nynaeve somehow is able to access the "alien source of power" herself, the standing problem is that one cannot see the weaves of someone else wielding this source. Other Forsaken may recognize what is done with it and know what weaves it takes for something to happen, but the weaves themselves are invisible.

Finnaly, we are also assuming that similar to what Moghedian did to Birgetta, bringing someone back uses actual weaves instead of a simple command from the "Lord of the Grave."

Lord of Chaos

Chapter 14, "Dreams and Nightmares"

"Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle."

If you read the entire paragraph, it speaks firstly of who "the three" are. That would be Elayne, Avhienda, and Min in the boat along with "he who is dead yet lives" which could be either Rand dead, yet living or LTT who is dead yet living in Rand's head. Remember though that while Rand is atop Dragonmount deciding whether to commit suicide as he did so long ago, he realizes that the voice was not imagination or a seperate entity, but himself reborn as Rand/LTT all along. At the end of the paragraph, "The great battle done, but the world not done with battle." The next part "the land divided by the return" obviously refers to the descendants of Artur Hawkwing and their war to reclaim all of their anscestor's nation. The possiible outcome has been seen through Avhienda during her final trial to become a Wise One in Rhuidean. Next, "The gaurdians balance the servants." obviously alludes to the Asha Man and the Aes Sedai. Possibly they are equaled in numbers, or power. Possibly the unite or... "The future teeters on the edge of a blade." Maybe there is a war between the two factions without the Dragon there to intervene. Possibly they will unite against the Seanchan.

While writing this I have thought about the earlier responses and it seems to me that everyone is assuming that Rand will be killed by the DO just as he seems to assume about the prophecy of his blood on the rocks at Shayol Ghul. But we forget about the viewing of Alivia helping Rand die. We see that Ishmael now in the form of Moridid has a connection where Moridid seems to feel echoes of Rand's extreme pains or discomforts. We see Moridid in his tower playing a "famous game from the past" while he speaks of the battles between Light and Darkness being an eternal struggle endlessly repeated. The figure that he toys with that was carved millenia ago is a perfect representation of how Rand looks, clutching his side where his wounds are located with blood spurting through his fingers. So I gather that this is a foreshadowing of a pose adopted by Rand during the last battle at Shayol Ghul. Nynaeve has promised to be there and it seems likely to me that Alivia will be there as well since she is supposed to "help Rand die." Since Alivia is so knowledgable about all weaves used in battle and pertaining to war, maybe she will find a way to place a weave on Rand that kills him and Moridid at the same time. Possibly before or after or in order to re-seal the DO in his prison. Maybe Alivia and Nynaeve will have gotten together to find a way to do this with Nynaeve having the knowledge to cancel the effects to Rand "bringing him back to life" or just a plain Jane way of Healing death.

As for the idea of the last battle being over and won, with Rand dead, returned to the pattern then using Moghedian's weave to rip him away from the pattern in order to bring him back; well, I find this to be a possibility since he should be rewarded for his efforts, yet not have to have all the memories of a dead mad man who killed his family. Since Birgetta is losing the memory of her past lives the farther along we go, maybe the same thing could happen to Rand.

have you considered that the "Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle." may not be referring to avi, min, or elayne? it could be mat, rand and perrin, and moridin

The whole quote is "the lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by th return, and the gaurdians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond." These refer to Elayne, who has taken the Lion throne, Avhienda, of the Aiel, and Min who can see and interpret the lace of the Pattern.

What if the Lion Sword and She who sees Beyond is Gawyn and Egwene? Along with Aviendha and Rand.

"...she who sees beyond..." could also refer to Avhienda since her most recent trip to Rhuidean where she saw a potential future of the Aiel... just a thought.

I don't have the exact quotes, or where they fall in the series. But I have read the series alot, and I have an excellent memory. Way back when, Gitara Sedai, told the prince and princess of Camelyn a form of foretelling. She told Rand's mother that the world rested on her going into the Waste, where she became a Maiden of the Spear, the Aiel crossed the Dragon Wall, yada yada, and was how Rand's birth came to pass. She also told Luc that the fate of the Last Battle rested on him going to the Blight. Well, actually I think Rand was told this information during a story, I think by Dyelin. When she was asking him about his face, and that he looked like the long lost princess that vanished. Anyway, why would the fate of the Last Battle depend upon Luc, GOING INTO THE BLIGHT? That seems a bit drastic! I always thought that this tied into Elaida's foretelling of "The Royal Line of Andor holds the Key to the Last Battle". For what was the prince and princess of Andor but the Royal Line. Elaida's foretelling didn't specify which Royal Line, past, present, or future. The only thing Luc has to bring to the table is the fact that he is two people bonded into one. Kinda of like Rand/Moridin. Maybe he will shed some light on the subject to the good guys. Maybe he dies at the Last Battle, and Nyneave (while trying to heal him) learns something about the bonding process and how to help Rand somehow with that info. Thats the only thing I can think of that Luc can bring to the story, which obviously he will bring something, due to the fact that Gitara Sedai said he would.

Had another thought while typing this up. I can't remember if Aviendha gave that dagger(the one that blocks the Shadows ability to see you) to Elayne or not, but I think see did before she went away. And I think on the cover of AMOL, Rand might be carrying it in his belt. Does this refer to the foretelling of "The Royal Line of Andor holds the key to the Last Battle"? The fact that Elayne holds this dagger, and it is the key to the LB. And I think I remember somewhere it refering to how important the cache of ter' angreal and angreal that was found was. I think it was said when Nyneave and Elayne where trying to explain how important it was they go and get it, that maybe the fate of the world rested on them finding it. The Bowl of Winds, even though it did some good, sure didn't change the fate of the world. Okay, I'm done ranting. txs for reading

Death cannot be healed without the Creator's help of some type.

Interesting ideas about the dagger and the whole royal line of Andor being the key to the last battle. I also remember the quote and personally believe that it refers to Elayne; but, I will not say your ideas hold no merit. I suppose we shall eagerly await the book to draw conclusions in that area.

As to your reference about Mat and the discussion with the snakes, (he met the foxes in Rhuidean they were the ones to grant wishes while the snakes answer questions) the snakes were speaking of the "savor" incurred by having not only one ta' veren but two ta' veren in their domain at the same time. The snakes and foxes both feed off of "sensations, emotions and experiences" as Moriane tells Rand and Mat Ta' veren though, give off a much stronger... "sustenance" for them to feed on. Read pages 250-257 of The Shadow Rising to read the entire account.

Tarmon Gai’don - The LAST Battle. This implies that it will be the last one. Not one more in a series of never ending struggles between the Creator and the Dark One, but the LAST one. Is Rand’s experience just another manifestation of the turning of the Wheel? – I think not. Otherwise his story loses relevance. What makes this turning of the Wheel different from the others? We don’t know, but it is made clear that for whatever reason this is the FINAL conflict. My point in bringing that up is to point out that while the Creator has stood aside thus far, it only stands to reason that at some point we will be introduced to him. Why not? After all we have already heard the voice of the Dark One, and I suspect we will be seeing more of him in the final book. So it stands to reason that after Tarmon Gai’don, when the conflict with the Dark One has been resolved that the Creator would make some sort of appearance. It seems more logical to me that he will be the one to bring Rand back to life. This makes more sense to me than Nyneave (or any other character) doing it. It would remove the issues associated with having the ability to ‘resurrect’ people, and make for a more rounded ending. I would love to hear any thoughts any one else has about this line of thinking.

Elaida's Foretelling about the Royal line of Andor says, "the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle. She had attached herself to Morgase as soon as it was clear Morgase would succeed to the throne..." (The Shadow Rising, Chapter 1, "Seeds of Shadow").

 

Still doesn't explain what Luc, going to the blight years before, has to do with the Last Battle and it depending on him going there. With that knowledge, knowing he will do something, gives more credit to the ideal of it being him who Elaida's "Royal Line of Andor" prohecy was talking about. I think its that, or Elayne and therefore Andor, having the dragons (cannons) that Mat and Aludra devised up. Maybe its the "Dragons" that will turn the tide. But if the whole entire quote is " royal line of andor will be the key to defeating the Dark One" and not just the key to the LB, then the dragons couldn't be it. You can't kill the DO with a cannon. Maybe the cannons kill so many darkspawn and etc., that they free up the friends of the light for an all out assault on the Bore. But that is a big, big maybe. So, its either Luc or the Dagger (that hides you from the Shadow) that Elayne has now in her posession. Could be both. My thoughts anyway. txs for reading

As for the whether this is truly the Last Battle or not, maybe it is, maybe not. I like to think that there would be some kind of great ending that Jordan has thought up to put our minds at rest about whether there is to be another Golden age, and downfall leading up to the DO's possible escape again. But through conversations with Ishmael, who was once a philospher before turning to the Shadow, (and still is) Rand has found out that the Dragon has fought the DO many times in the past. The same soul that has been reborn countless times previously as LTT and so on. The difference that has been introduced in the later books spoken by Ishmael/Moridid, is that this time if the DO wins, it will be final because he plans to blind the Serpent and break the Wheel of Time in order to remake it in his image which does not include rebirth of the Dragon and other figures that I suppose he just does not like. This is the reason that Rand guesses acted as a catalyst for Ishmael to turn to the Shadow. Because no matter how many times the Dragon, the light, or whoever defeats the DO, there is always another turning of the Wheel and another chance for the DO to break free. All the DO has to do is win once, to remake creation as he pleases.

Frankly, I do not think that the dagger (hides one from shadowspan, possibly even light blinder himself) is the key to victory. If that were so, I think that the prophecy would have been worded differently since anyone at all can be in possession of it. I believe it has more to do with Elayne personally possibly because of her connection to Rand, as well as Egwene, and another with Avhienda or any other number of reasons. But then again, Luc's relation to Rand is a matter of interesting thought. What is his purpose? Why did he have to go to the blight? It sure seems that he is a willing tool for the DO and the Forsaken, but maybe it is all a ruse until a crucial moment?

What am I overlooking? The royal line of Andor is Rand himself, being of the royal line and at the same time the clear focal point for the forces of "good" vs the DO. While yes you can look at clues at the other people that fit the description through one way or another the simple fact is none of them fit near as well as Rand himself does. I don't see a reason for overcomplicating that part of it. There's simply too thin reasoning to suggest that Luc, Elayne or any other member of the royal line would be equally significant.

As far as the last battle, we already know it isn't the -last- battle from "The great battle done, but the world not done with battle" as well as the various references to the world after where you still have the Seanchan, parts of the Aiel as well as various factions that may seize the opportunity, given the chance. This should however be the last great battle in the fight against the shadow, during this period of time.

Also, the Wheel turns. I have a hard time seeing how this does not mean that the bore will happen again and thus eventually even Randland, again. The implications of taking the DO entirely out of the playing field (the only way to ensure it does not happen again) are way too major in my book. RJ wrote about the ongoing fight between good and evil and suddenly ending that fight would just feel wrong towards the tone of RJ's writing.

My point in bringing that up is to point out that while the Creator has stood aside thus far, it only stands to reason that at some point we will be introduced to him.

I think it'd be interesting if it turned out that the Creator had been helping all along, disguised as some other character. Maybe Bela isn't the Dark One after all, but actually the Creator. :)

hi, i am, too, a big fan to the series. have read them twice in german, once in english and heard the audio book for four times.

you mention interesting ideas here. :)

i also think, Nynaeve will heal Rands death. She surely will be there at the last Battle. But i dont think, she will be in the circle wielding Callandor.

i think, the circle will be made of obviously Rand, Moraine ... and Cyndane/Lanfear/Mierin - she is The female wielder while opening the Bore in the first place [Rands memories in the Aiel Ter'Angreal]. And she regrets going for the Shadow [Epilog of ToM].

Also, i think, the Callandor is not only a Sa'Angreal for the male One Power, but also for the True Power [all this hints from Min: "it is flawed beyond we know.." and "Callandor, hold in an onyx hand.." and the fact Rand is now connected to it].

i think, Rand will hurl Padan Fain/Mashadar into the Bore, using the True Power itself and somehow die for it, surely with Alivias help, to cut his connection to the evil energies thus closing the way for the True Power to fire back [how it did "the last time"].

btw, i think, the essence of the One Power is the Creator: it creates lifes and does the Weaving of the Wheel of Time go on - it is the energy of Life.

On the other hand, the True Power is the energy of Death. The energy of Destruction. It is absolute opposit to the energy of Life, hence the inevitable struggle between the Creator and the DarkOne.

Remember Rand connecting for the first time to the True Power, the Lews Therin saying: "..It's Him! We are holding HIM!"...

Lews Therin was Grandmaster of Mages in the Age of Legends, he was the best of the best. We see it in the ToM, "Storm of Light", when he saved Maradon. Seasoned Ashaman Naeff "..cannot track all the weaves coming from him. He is the Storm of Power and Light!" Rand was never that strong and knowledgable befor Melting with Lews Therin.

DarkOne is not a person. This Voice forsaken hear while in the Pit of Doom is the voice planted into their minds by Ishamael/Moridin, who is playing "this fools" for his own end.

that are mine two coppers :)

Ameneon, on , said:

 

The royal line of Andor is Rand himself

I agree. I'm sure Elaida's Foretelling was referring to Rand. Doesn't that just make you grin?

...

~Mashiara

it sure does! elaida failed in every way possible :D hurray! :D