Using a Well to Seal the Bore

[Sentinel78]

I made a comment on Herid’s blog entry related to the Eye of the World, and Herid asked me to repost for additional discussion.  The theory is basically that Rand will reseal the Bore using a Well. 

 

LTT’s attempt to seal the Bore was flawed, from tGS:

 

Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?
It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!

 

The problem was not merely that LTT touched saidin to the Dark One, but rather that he touched saidin from the True Source to the Dark One.  If Rand used saidin drawn from a Well instead, the Dark One would have no direct link to the True Source; he would merely be connected to the Well. 

 

This leads to the question of where could Rand possibly find a Well with enough Power to reseal the Bore and/or rebuild the Dark One’s prison.

 

Answer: He already had one; The Eye of the World.  As explained in detail by Herid in his blog entry at the link above, the purpose of the Eye was never really explained.  It is allegedly supposed to be used for "the greatest need the world would ever face" (tEoTW, ch 52).  However, all Rand did with it was (i) burn Aginor (or let Aginor self-destruct from drawing too much OP), (ii) destroy a moderate sized Shadowspawn army, (iii) wound Ishamael and (iv) safeguard the Horn of Valere, the Dragon Banner and one of the Seals.  (i)-(iii) are important, but not the greatest need the world would ever face.  (iv) could have been guarded like Callandor (which was warded by the same Aes Sedai in a way that Be’lal and the rest of the Forsaken could not breach).  No need to involve the Eye at all or to die in order to make that reservoir of saidin ‘pure’.

 

Ishamael wanted Rand to find the Eye. As explained in detail by Herid, Ishamael deliberately leaked alleged information that he would be attacking or commandeering the Eye somehow (through the one Aiel let escape to the Tinkers, through Noal / Jain Farstrider).  He also brings the Eye up numerous times to Mat, Rand and Perrin in their dreams telling them the Eye would never serve them.  Ishamael is a little crazy but not stupid.  He was taunting them into going for the Eye, and Moiraine took the bait.  Why would he do that?  Because the Eye of the World is a giant Well, built by Aes Sedai who understood how saidin was tainted and were aware of the Prophecies that eventually became the Karaethon Cycle.  They knew that the Dragon Reborn would need to use a Well when he next fought the Dark One so that the OP would not be exposed. 

 

Callandor would have been sufficient if the goal was merely to provide the Dragon Reborn with a Power source.  Consider, those Aes Sedai (which we see in Rand's Rhuidean flashbacks in tSR) built the Eye of the World near the mountains of Dhoom, a short ride from Shayol Ghul.  Why would they do this if it was not to be used at Shayol Ghul, which is relatively close nearby?  By contrast, they secured Callandor much further south, in Tear.  So, Ishamael cannot access the Eye himself because the whole area is warded and under the control of the Green Man, but he needs to eliminate the Eye as a threat so he taunts Rand into going for it too early, when Rand cannot possibly be knowledgeable enough to use it for its intended purpose.  Rand (and Aginor) drain the Eye and Ishamael successfully removes the Eye from the game.

 

However, the Eye was never destroyed; it was merely emptied.  Cadsuane and Nynaeve can both restore their Wells simply by drawing on the OP.   Could Rand have re-established his connection to the Eye somehow and restored the power in the Eye, perhaps during his Dragonmount epiphany?  Maybe that’s the mysterious “it” from the aMoL: Day One pre-release material (i.e., he drew on some of the Eye’s power in Maradon to destroy the Shadowspawn army).  If not, perhaps Rand needs to re-charge the Eye with Callandor in a circle with Nynaeve and Moiraine before they head down into the Pit of Doom.

 

Basic theory: Rand uses a huge Well (i.e., the Eye) to recreate the Dark One's prison in a link with Nynaeve / Moiraine.  Saidin from the Well is placed on the inside of the prison and clean OP-drawn saidar is placed on the outside of the prison.  he Dark One cannot attack the True Source in response to this type of channeling and is thereby resealed.  The relevance of the Eye, and why so many people had to die during the Breaking to ensure its existence is thereby explained.  These people studied what LTT did wrong while the world was going to Hell and put together a Well for the Dragon to use the next time he needed to seal away the DO...  Of course, in that case, they should have provided some written instructions instead of simply the Dragon Banner, Horn of Valere and Seal.

 

But wait, the Dark One did not merely taint saidin, he also drove LTT completely nuts!  Yes, but the dark taint-tines protruding into Rand's brain from his tainted saidin use (detected by Nynaeve via Delving in ToM) are coated with Light, so Rand may actually be protected from future taint effects in a way that LTT never was...  

 

What about Nynaeve and Moiraine?  Wouldn’t they be driven nuts and saidar tainted?  Not sure on this one.  Cadsuane seems to think that the women need to be in control of the link with Rand when he uses Callandor, in which case the Dark One would have a link to saidar at the True Source, and there is no known saidar Well big enough to use against the Dark One.  However, Rand could be in control of a link with two other women, so he could still be in control with saidar being funneled one-way from Nynaeve / Moiraine in a way that the Dark One could not taint perhaps?

[Viperswhip]

Problem is, the Eye is now siting in a blighted area, no longer warded. Kind of hard to keep that much power secret.

 

I liked the theory that Saidin and Saidar at the sealing would have worked, but that was debunked by the authors themselves and made me sad. So, I am guessing Saidar being used won't work very well. However at Shadar Logoth, I can't remember if he tunneled Saidar right into SL, or just close enough that when Saidin was fed through it, SL would grab it or kind of like a tap into the sink. I don't know where I am going with that, but whatever.

[Ryan52]

IIRC (and correct me if I am wrong, it has been awhile since I read the first novel) the Banner, Horn and seal were safeguarded beneath the Eye and not discovered until it was drained.  Assuming these are all key components for the Dragon's assault on SG it would logically stand that the Eye was meant to be drained prior to TG.  What its purpose was is certainly debatable imo but I cannot see how it was intended to be saved and used as a well for sealing the Dark One if it was hiding some important items for that task.  Was the Eye even tied to any physical object that could have been moved?  

[Ryan52]

Double post.

[Sentinel78]

Problem is, the Eye is now siting in a blighted area, no longer warded. Kind of hard to keep that much power secret.

 

I liked the theory that Saidin and Saidar at the sealing would have worked, but that was debunked by the authors themselves and made me sad. So, I am guessing Saidar being used won't work very well. However at Shadar Logoth, I can't remember if he tunneled Saidar right into SL, or just close enough that when Saidin was fed through it, SL would grab it or kind of like a tap into the sink. I don't know where I am going with that, but whatever.

 

I'm not saying Rand needs to go into the Pit of Doom and use the 7-Seals approach via the Well, I'm just saying that using the Eye would permit Rand to rebuild the Dark One's prison without exposing saidin.

 

IIRC (and correct me if I am wrong, it has been awhile since I read the first novel) the Banner, Horn and seal were safeguarded beneath the Eye and not discovered until it was drained.  Assuming these are all key components for the Dragon's assault on SG it would logically stand that the Eye was meant to be drained prior to TG.  What its purpose was is certainly debatable imo but I cannot see how it was intended to be saved and used as a well for sealing the Dark One if it was hiding some important items for that task.  Was the Eye even tied to any physical object that could have been moved?  

 

The Eye makes no sense if it was merely intended to protect the Banner, Horn and Seal.  Callandor was protected much better than that.  Callandor's ward blocked the Forsaken and was somehow specially tuned to the Dragon soul.  However, despite having access to such sophisticated wards, those Aes Sedai built the Eye instead and all died doing so.  Why the heck would they do that if all they wanted to do was protect a few items?  

 

Moiraine's assumption was that the Eye must have been truly meant to protect the Banner, Horn and Seal, but she was wrong (about that and many other things too).

[herid]

Ryan52 makes a good point about the original purpose of the Eye. It's also not really clear if there was some kind of physical object containing it that can be moved around. I rather think not. It looks to me like RJ hasn't fully developed the notion of the Wells when the first novel was written. Before it is used up the Eye is described as a pool of saidin which literally looks like a pool filled with some sort of liquid (essence of saidin according to Moiraine)  shaped as an eye. This is definitely not how the other Wells in the series are described. Once the Eye is drained I'm not sure if there is anything left that can be reused or moved. It is mentioned that there is a crystal column left in the middle of the pool and the Horn, the Banner  and the broken Seal  were under it. Someone on Tor suggested that it might be the crystal pillar in Egwene's dream in memory  #7. That would be a cool twist.   But even if the Eye can not be moved it's possible that it can be refilled and used from distance. It's not made very clear in the book but I think that Rand used the Eye to kill Trollocs in Tarwin's gap which is some distance from the Eye location (which is not constant anyway). So it might be possible that Rand refilled the Eye during VoG and will use it again in the Last Battle. But even in such scenario it would not be used for the original purpose of the Eye as Ryan52 explained.

[Ryan52]

I do not disagree the Eye had some other purpose besides serving as a safe-deposit box for the Dragon.  I tend to lean towards it being meant to provide Rand a source of clean saidin to stretch out and maximize his power level (as they do at the Black Tower) without being driven insane by the taint, by hiding items necessary to his success beneath it they ensured his abilities would be pushed before he went to face the Dark One.  There is a lot about the end (and novel in general) that seem like early-bookisms, but it did seem like there was something else to do with the Eye's power besides saidin (Light).  Perhaps it had been meant to provide the Dragon some form of protection from the Taint but Aginor's theft of a seemingly significant amount of it caused this to fail?  

[raz311]

I'm not sure on the mechanics of how the Eye would be used to seal the bore, but from a story telling point of view, how many times do we see something happen in the first novel/episode/movie turn out to be the saviour (dues ex machina anyone?)at the big finale? Could be related in some fashion to the re-sealing of the bore. I like the theory of it being a well btw.

[raz311]

Double post sorry :(

[herid]

@Ryan52 Sentinel provided a link to my own theory on the matter in his post. In short I believe that The Eye was originally intended to be used to break the Seals at the right moment. Then get the Horn and the Banner, call the Heroes of the Horn and go fight the DO. There is a lot more to it but I don't want to reproduce it all here.

I still find Sentinel's theory interesting even if it doesn't agree with the original purpose of the Eye.

[Amandera]

I see some problems with this theory.

 

First and the biggest, Eye of the World is not a Well and cannot be refilled. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=173#2

Both Nynaeve's and Cadsuane's Wells contain only a small amount of saidar. There must be limits for a typical Well ter'angreal. I am doubtful one that contains enough Power to seal the Bore can be made.

 

Second, for the most part the Eye seems to work very similarly to a Well. I don't think you can use an angreal and a Well at the same time. Both proccesses are very similar: you draw the Power through both. But we know Callandor is the key to Last Battle, it must be used. And the cover shows it is used in the Pit of Doom. Then again, you can use multiple angreal so that might be a non-issue.

 

Third, both saidin and saidar need to be used. So even with a Well for saidin, saidar is susceptible to the taint. Though, you can probably circumvent this by using a Well for saidar as well or using saidin to touch the DO and saidar for whatever else that needs to be done.

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

I see some problems with this theory.

 

First and the biggest, Eye of the World is not a Well and cannot be refilled. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=173#2 .

As someone who works often with liquid N2, I don't understand the analogy. You can refill a glass with water. You can refill a canister with liquid N2. Heck you can even fill a glass with liquid N2. I've done it.

 

If the "Pool" cannot be refilled, can a new one be made? Maybe that is what Callandor is for (new fringe theory?)

[Amandera]

Doubt it. People who made the Eye had Callandor. I assume if it could be done, they'd have used it. A lot of people died, they would want to avoid that. They also made the Eye because of a Foretelling and they had a purpose for creating it beyond "the prophecy says so". That implies the Foretelling mentioned how it would be used and we know Rand did not use it for the reasons the creators intended per interviews. I don't know whether that means the Eye of the World still has a purpose or its purpose was fulfilled unintendedly though.

[herid]

I see some problems with this theory.

 

First and the biggest, Eye of the World is not a Well and cannot be refilled. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=173#2

Both Nynaeve's and Cadsuane's Wells contain only a small amount of saidar. There must be limits for a typical Well ter'angreal. I am doubtful one that contains enough Power to seal the Bore can be made.

I can't believe I missed that quote! I looked through the Eye related stuff in the interview database when writing that blog post. That definitely does it for Sentinel's idea that the Eye could be reused. But it still might be possible that Rand got hold of another Well (or created one during VoG). He handled a LOT of Power there. More than all those people who made the original Eye, I'm sure.

 

Second, for the most part the Eye seems to work very similarly to a Well. I don't think you can use an angreal and a Well at the same time. Both proccesses are very similar: you draw the Power through both. But we know Callandor is the key to Last Battle, it must be used. And the cover shows it is used in the Pit of Doom. Then again, you can use multiple angreal so that might be a non-issue.

I really don't see why a Well and an angreal can not be used at the same time.

 

Third, both saidin and saidar need to be used. So even with a Well for saidin, saidar is susceptible to the taint.

That's what I argued to Sentinel in the comments on my blog too especially in view of RJ's comments that both saidin and saidar would have been tainted if used together when LTT was sealing the Bore. But this might not be the case if Rand uses a different method than LTT which is very likely and is what Sentinel is suggesting.

 

[Pinzarn]

If the "Pool" cannot be refilled, can a new one be made? Maybe that is what Callandor is for (new fringe theory?)

 

 

Regarding the refilling of th Eye, I took RJ's linked quote to mean it isn't as easy as refilling a normal well.    His analogy of the glass and canister I took to mean that a glass of water is easily refilled from a faucet, but a liquid nitrogen canister needs special procedures.

 

I like the thought that Callandor is somewhere linked to the Eye.  Perhaps Callandor isn't flawed, instead, everyone has been using it incorrectly.  An item would appear to be flawed when using it for something different; however, when used correctly it isn't flawed.

[raz311]

Maybe Moiraine has some new info about the Eye from her requests to the Finns?

[Amandera]

 

If the "Pool" cannot be refilled, can a new one be made? Maybe that is what Callandor is for (new fringe theory?)

 

 

Regarding the refilling of th Eye, I took RJ's linked quote to mean it isn't as easy as refilling a normal well.    His analogy of the glass and canister I took to mean that a glass of water is easily refilled from a faucet, but a liquid nitrogen canister needs special procedures.

 

I like the thought that Callandor is somewhere linked to the Eye.  Perhaps Callandor isn't flawed, instead, everyone has been using it incorrectly.  An item would appear to be flawed when using it for something different; however, when used correctly it isn't flawed.

 

Except the quote says the Eye cannot be refilled. And Callandor is flawed, it's a manufacturing flaw because they rushed it during the War of the Shadow. Whatever properties Callandor has, they are unintended by its creators.

[Guest Richdeen65]

Could the quote mean that a single male channeler could not refill the Eye, but perhaps "many" could refill it?  Jordan references that "lots of Aes Sedai died to make it" in answering a question about a male channeler being able to refill the Eye.  I'm not sure that he completely rules out the Eye being refilled by a group of channelers. 

[herid]

@Richdeen65 No. There is  another quote I found after seeing this one and it says that the Eye can not be refilled at all.

Interview: Nov 30th, 2000

WH Signing Report - Matt Peck (Paraphrased)

Question

Was the Eye of the World a Well/variant of a Well?

Robert Jordan

He said that it was similar, but different. Similar in the sense that it it held the One Power, but it's not a ter'angreal. They are also created in different ways. The Eye was a one-time use, where a well can be refilled. He went on a little further, but I forget a little of his explanation. But no earth-shakers here, just a little clarification of what we already knew.

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

 

 

If the "Pool" cannot be refilled, can a new one be made? Maybe that is what Callandor is for (new fringe theory?)

 

 

Regarding the refilling of th Eye, I took RJ's linked quote to mean it isn't as easy as refilling a normal well.    His analogy of the glass and canister I took to mean that a glass of water is easily refilled from a faucet, but a liquid nitrogen canister needs special procedures.

 

I like the thought that Callandor is somewhere linked to the Eye.  Perhaps Callandor isn't flawed, instead, everyone has been using it incorrectly.  An item would appear to be flawed when using it for something different; however, when used correctly it isn't flawed.

 

Except the quote says the Eye cannot be refilled. And Callandor is flawed, it's a manufacturing flaw because they rushed it during the War of the Shadow. Whatever properties Callandor has, they are unintended by its creators.

 

(Now we're getting into a Callandor debate) isn't the flaw imporant though? The flaw "unintended by its creators", is this something RJ said or something the people of modern Randland believe? I mean, why Callandor over Choedan Kal if not for that flaw? I found it very interesting plot-wise that the female Choedan-key broke, but not the male one...

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

 

If the "Pool" cannot be refilled, can a new one be made? Maybe that is what Callandor is for (new fringe theory?)

 

 

Regarding the refilling of th Eye, I took RJ's linked quote to mean it isn't as easy as refilling a normal well.    His analogy of the glass and canister I took to mean that a glass of water is easily refilled from a faucet, but a liquid nitrogen canister needs special procedures.

 

I like the thought that Callandor is somewhere linked to the Eye.  Perhaps Callandor isn't flawed, instead, everyone has been using it incorrectly.  An item would appear to be flawed when using it for something different; however, when used correctly it isn't flawed.

 

Ok, if we pair this quote, with the one Herid found that the Pool cannot be refilled at all, then that leaves us with two conclusions;

A))Rand(or someone) will make a new pool

B)The making of a new pool shall not come to pass for the task of re-imprisoning the Dark One.

 

As far as we know, if it's possibility A) they would need a sa'angreal. It would require Saidin. or Saidin and Saidar (or super-fringe theory: the True Power). The True Power is unlikely because the whole point of a pool is to not get tainted by the Dark One.

 

Based on the initial, an ingenious, Herid(&Sentinel78?) theory, I suggest the following:

 

Rand WON'T have a Pool/Well. He was supposed to use the original Eye of the World one to Seal the Dark One's prison so as not to get counter-tainted, but he will somehow use the True Power to stop the Dark One from doing that instead of a Pool.

[Suttree]

(Now we're getting into a Callandor debate) isn't the flaw imporant though? The flaw "unintended by its creators", is this something RJ said or something the people of modern Randland believe?

 

Jason Wolfbrother

Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

Robert Jordan

The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.

[HighSimms]

fain is what will touch the dark one, freeing up the one power and keeping it clean. the same way the source was cleansed, one evil consuming another

[hypmatt]

fain is what will touch the dark one, freeing up the one power and keeping it clean. the same way the source was cleansed, one evil consuming another

I've seen this one thrown round quite a lot, and whilst its a possibility it just seems too much of a cop out considering it's already been done.

I mean there's foreshadowing and then there's just repeating yourself

[Pinzarn]

 

(Now we're getting into a Callandor debate) isn't the flaw imporant though? The flaw "unintended by its creators", is this something RJ said or something the people of modern Randland believe?

 

Jason Wolfbrother

Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

Robert Jordan

The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.

 

 

Dang it, I hate all of the random quotes out there for stuff that isn't really definite in the books.