The Black Ajah & Seanchan Morality

[Mr Ares]

The end of your sentence doesn't follow from the premise at the beginning. If we do not know how they lived, how can we be sure they did not conquer the depression? We do not know how they died either - any of them. Therefore we cannot draw conclusions about how they died.

 

We do not know if they conquer the depression true, but we do know that they do not live as long as others, we do know severed channelers get fatally depressed. Something make these men have shorter lifespans than normal people, and while it is not written in stone it is a fair guess to assume that what kills people with their condition normally would be what is killing these who manage to live a bit longer as well.

What is causing those brought in by Cadsuane to live longer? Are they conquering the depression, merely displacing it, or simply coping with it for longer than others? If we take Setalle as an example - is the depression truly gone for her, is it gone only as long as she has something to fill the hole, or is she still depressed? Well, we have no indication of the last. If it is possible to overcome the depression, then it therefore follows that all the men brought in by Cadsuane dying prematurely is unlikely to be as a result of the depression.

If not what else could be killing them? If one group of people have one distinct thing in common, but nothing else and this group then live shorter lifespans than the regular population then it is rather fair to assume that what they have in common causes their early deaths, and if this thing generally causes death due to one cause or another but this group have been lucky and lived longer than what is common with said condition then it is fair to assume that the cause of their early deaths is the same as for those with the same affliction who have not lived as long. Off course with the number we are talking about here some would have died of natural causes most likely, or like you suggested died in battle or been murdered, but the fact still remain that this group live short lifespans which means that while you will have some deaths due to unrelated causes most of them die from the thing they have in common, the gentling and the way that is known to kill is due to depression.

Those who cannot find something to fill the hole die from the depression - and soon. Those who do not die soon do not fit the pattern. So we have no solid foundation for conclusions about what causes them to die, nothing on the long term problems of stilling or gentling. If it is the same thing killing them, why are they living longer? Again, they do not fit the pattern of those who die of the depression.

 

We don't know what the chances are. We have too little information to draw reliable conclusions.

We do not know the exact numbers no, but we do know that the chance of a severed channeler surviving being rather slim as that is stated several times in the books.

By people who lack the information to draw reliable conclusions.

 

Logain was not a normal male channeler. He was a false Dragon. Therefore, there is a risk to him from people who disapprove of that particular career choice, and a risk to others from him deciding that maybe Gentling doesn't ave to be the end of this "I am the Dragon" lark after all. And therefore, do we know that his treatment was not atypical? They might treat other male channelers differently, and therefore they might end up in a different state.

 

While it is true that Logain might have been kept under more watch he is not treated badly per say, at least not from what we see in the scenes he is in, his Accepted guards wanting him to go into the sunlight as it would do him good for example. And while we do not know if other gentled male channelers would end up exactly like him we do know that when he Siuan and the rest arrive at the rebel Aes Sedai with him being in a rather sorry state none seam surprised and just say that it is the gentling so obviously they had seen it before. Also it is stated again and again that channelers who are severed lose the will to live and either kill themselves or just die shortly after anyway so it do not seam like Logain is a particularly bad case.

I never said Logain was treated badly, only that as a prisoner of the WT, he is atypical. Do other male channelers stay there at all? They certainly send away the women. And it is stated again and again, but then there are lots of things that are stated again and again in the series that turn out to be untrue. No AS is strong enough to Travel was stated a few times. Then someone rediscovered Travelling. No-one can Heal stilling was said many times. Then it was Healed. What people state again and again is the accepted wisdom, not the truth. And they don't need to have seen gentled men before, as they have all heard about it.

 

The big problem here is we are having to speculate with very little by way of concrete information. For example, women who are burnt out are sent away from the Tower. What are their survival rates like? The AS don't tend to keep tabs on them - the very subject makes them uncomfortable. Getting rid of them is as much for the peace of mind of the AS as it is the benefit of the women in question.

 

We do not know their exact survival rates but it is stated that a few manage to survive by finding something they can fill the hole in their mind with, so while statistics are not given it is strongly indicated that burned out women have a low survival rate but that it is not unknown for some to make it. Also the fact that the Aes Sedai are made so uncomfortable around severed channelers is also a bit telling, in setting most of them seam far more afraid of that than death which do also indicate that it is a rather bad fate. Yes we do have to speculate some, but there is also a fair amount of information available to make a rather educated guess in my option.

AS see burning out or stilling as a fate worse than death, which colours their views. They are uncomfortable about the subject, so as much for their own peace of mind as the good of the women in question, they get rid of them. They do not study them. We don't know how much of what they say is backed by evidence, and how much is just what they say with no backing. It is strongly indicated by women who don't know the survival statistics that the survival rate is low. You don't see a problem trying to use that as the basis for your speculation?

 

For the men who are Gentled - what is life expectancy?

From one to three years if I do not remember it wrong.

I'm not aware of any quote, in book or out, to that effect.

 

What is life expectancy for men brought in by Cadsuane?

That we do not know, we know one lived or ten years and that all live longer than what is average for a gentled male channeler but that all of them live short lives.

Shorter. Not short.

 

See, we're denied so much information that we are reduced to speculating in a vacuum.

 

Look at Logain at Tower or during the last leg of the journey to the rebel Tower and tell me it is better to be left like that than to be dead. Also tell me that it is better to live with always feeling that magick you so desire to touch, the magick that have become the greatest thing in your life, something so amazing that every other experience pales to it, but never being able to touch it so you live in an eternal state of loss. I do not think that is better than death, even if it is possible to survive.

I have to agree with what Suttree and elric have already said - depression, caused by gentling or otherwise, might not be much fun to live with, but it is something that it is possible to recover from. It is surely better to let people live and try to get better than just to kill people out of hand.

[Hagazussa]

What is causing those brought in by Cadsuane to live longer?

 

That we do not know, it can be all from support to compulsion to her kicking them into actually doing something.

 

Are they conquering the depression, merely displacing it, or simply coping with it for longer than others? If we take Setalle as an example - is the depression truly gone for her, is it gone only as long as she has something to fill the hole, or is she still depressed?

 

From what is said in the books a severed channeler will always feel the loss, but to me she do not seam depressed, I do however think that if she did not have something to fill that hole in her mind she would be.

 

Well, we have no indication of the last. If it is possible to overcome the depression, then it therefore follows that all the men brought in by Cadsuane dying prematurely is unlikely to be as a result of the depression.

 

Actually I was reading up on this yesterday to have the information fresh in my mind and when Logain and the rest are traveling to the rebel tower he is reasonably fine for a while, he hunt, he argues, he hit on women and while he is bitter he appear to be rather well and rather normal, but then over the last 15 days of the journey he just falls apart, beginning with having to be dragged out of his blankets in the morning, then he stops arguing and for the last few days he just do nothing, he just stares right in front of him and walk if someone push him. Siuan is angry that gentling would catch up with him now that they where so close to the goal. This indicates rather strongly that a gentled channeler can function well for a while, feel loss yes but live well and then suddenly deteriorate. Siuan also on one point is relieved that she get to work on her schemes at the rebel Tower as she thinks as long as he have something to do she can live on but if she is sent to some hut to do nothing she will quickly die.

 

To me when you look at Logain he seam to have the lemmings syndrome and what I mean by that is that strong emotions or some task will get him active and then he function. He is rather broken down at the Tower spending his time thinking about suicide and crying on park benches, then he escapes with Siuan and the rest and he wakes up and function well, but when he looses faith that Siuan can get him revenge then he deteriorates and fast but when she get him involved with the whole framing the Red Ajah plan he wakes up again and even takes joy in smoking a pipe, drinking wine and reading a book. It seam that he can do something he can be active and focused on a goal but he run out of steam very quickly and have to be constantly given a goal to work towards then he function, but unless he have that overpowering goal then he just withers away. I think this is what happens to Cads captured male channelers, they function well as long as the goals in their lives are there but that they have a lower tolerance for handling the difficulties of life and when they meet a wall gentling catches up with them.

 

Those who cannot find something to fill the hole die from the depression - and soon. Those who do not die soon do not fit the pattern. So we have no solid foundation for conclusions about what causes them to die, nothing on the long term problems of stilling or gentling. If it is the same thing killing them, why are they living longer? Again, they do not fit the pattern of those who die of the depression.

 

When a group who have one thing in common all die prematurely we can safely assume that the thing they have in common is contributing to their death. When we know that others with the same thing in common die from a lack of the will to live we can make an educated guess that it is also what is killing those who live longer. Yes do we know this for sure no, it can be severing causes some physical defect or other problem but there is nothing that indicates this so the most likely thing is that it is depression killing Cad's victims/patients as well.

 

By people who lack the information to draw reliable conclusions.

 

I disagree most of those who say this are Aes Sedai who have books on the matter and they have seen severed channelers quite a few times, they definitely do have the information to draw reliable conclusions on the subject.

 

I never said Logain was treated badly, only that as a prisoner of the WT, he is atypical. Do other male channelers stay there at all? They certainly send away the women.

 

We do not know if male channelers are kept in the Tower or not, the women are sent away yes but it says nowhere that the men are but this we just do not know.

 

And it is stated again and again, but then there are lots of things that are stated again and again in the series that turn out to be untrue. No AS is strong enough to Travel was stated a few times. Then someone rediscovered Travelling. No-one can Heal stilling was said many times. Then it was Healed. What people state again and again is the accepted wisdom, not the truth. And they don't need to have seen gentled men before, as they have all heard about it.

 

There is a difference between saying something can not be done, some knowledge or method can not be developed and commenting on reality right in front of you. Someone saying such a thing would never be possible that is making a guess about the future, but stating that a group of people who have received a certain kind of treatment do not live long and it is a fate worse than death that is observable reality. Now could it be some method to make it more bearable can be discovered, sure but as of what the characters making these claims can observe it is a fate worse than death.

 

AS see burning out or stilling as a fate worse than death, which colours their views. They are uncomfortable about the subject, so as much for their own peace of mind as the good of the women in question, they get rid of them. They do not study them.

 

Some do study them actually I came over someone commenting about that when I read over the material yesterday, though they studied them gingerly they did study them.

 

We don't know how much of what they say is backed by evidence, and how much is just what they say with no backing. It is strongly indicated by women who don't know the survival statistics that the survival rate is low. You don't see a problem trying to use that as the basis for your speculation?

 

I do not consider using the opinions of the group who are actually generally the ones to perform severing and is also the one who observe the result as a basis for my assumptions no. I think that after 3000 years of doing it and whatever information about it which can have survived from the Age of Legends the Aes Sedai do have a fair grasp of what they are talking about, also the Forsaken seam to be terrified of it as well, if the only reason why severing is feared is that the Aes Sedai is hyping it up then why would the Forsaken fear it so much?

 

I'm not aware of any quote, in book or out, to that effect.

 

I am fairly sure it is in there but I can not be certain, I will try to find it.

 

I have to agree with what Suttree and elric have already said - depression, caused by gentling or otherwise, might not be much fun to live with, but it is something that it is possible to recover from. It is surely better to let people live and try to get better than just to kill people out of hand.

 

I agree that for some the chance for a life, even a life filled with loss would be better than death, but why not make it a choice? Why not give a captured male channeler the choice between gentling and death, then if he want to try to survive then he could and if he considers it a fate worse than death he can choose an execution. I am not saying that gentling would be a bad choice for everyone, I am saying forcing it on someone who would rather die is bad.

 

But like others have said we have stayed off topic, perhaps it would be better to make a new thread for this topic though I do feel that we for the last few posts to one another we have mostly just repeated our points and I am not so sure we will come to an agreement here, we see the material differently and while I respect you opinion perhaps it is better to agree to disagree, though I am off course willing to continue the debate with you in another thread if you want to continue it as I do find your points enlightening and interesting even when I do not agree with them. However I do not think we should continue to derail the thread.