Seanchan and the AoL

[Vardar]

Also, what varios initiaves over the years were aimed at the BA? The ones I can recall are all fairly recent, otherwise they refuse to admit they even exist.

 

Cads

WH

She was sure they would keep that ridiculous oath, if not always in ways the boy would like, but there was always the possibility that one or two might be Black Ajah. Once she had thought herself on the point of rooting out the Black only to watch her quarry slip through her fingers like smoke, her bitterest failure except possibly for failing to learn what Caraline Damodred's cousin had been up to in the Borderlands until the knowledge was years too late to do any good.

 

Verin and the BA hunters is what I was referring to. Another was sure to start around the time Tamra was killed but then Moir and Siuan were forced underground when the DR hunters started being taken out.

 

What's the Tower going to say when the Tairens and Illians blame the Tower. "Oh, we've been fairly sure there have been BA among us for decades, at least, but you know.... there not our problem since they've sworn other oaths. Don't blame us. We just sent them to you as if they were AS and funded them and told them all about your problems but you can't blame us"?

 

They will say the truth. They have foresworn their oaths as AS and they serve the DO.

 

Can you attribute individual actions to the WT as a whole? Just because 2 people were trying to prove they existed, doesnt' mean the Tower tried. given the Tower officially refuses to believe in the BA, that the actions of those few would be in the same catagory as the actions of the BA, rogue doings.

 

Thaks for clarifying what you meant however.

[thisguy]

Also, what varios initiaves over the years were aimed at the BA? The ones I can recall are all fairly recent, otherwise they refuse to admit they even exist.

 

Cads

WH

She was sure they would keep that ridiculous oath, if not always in ways the boy would like, but there was always the possibility that one or two might be Black Ajah. Once she had thought herself on the point of rooting out the Black only to watch her quarry slip through her fingers like smoke, her bitterest failure except possibly for failing to learn what Caraline Damodred's cousin had been up to in the Borderlands until the knowledge was years too late to do any good.

 

Verin and the BA hunters is what I was referring to. Another was sure to start around the time Tamra was killed but then Moir and Siuan were forced underground when the DR hunters started being taken out.

 

What's the Tower going to say when the Tairens and Illians blame the Tower. "Oh, we've been fairly sure there have been BA among us for decades, at least, but you know.... there not our problem since they've sworn other oaths. Don't blame us. We just sent them to you as if they were AS and funded them and told them all about your problems but you can't blame us"?

 

They will say the truth. They have foresworn their oaths as AS and they serve the DO.

They would probably only tell the truth if directly asked. If not, they would say something that isn't a lie but not the whole truth. They would still be responsible in the world's eyes for sending a BA. It is their responsibility to do something about this and the Tower has not. A couple of women from the Tower have tried to do something. Why not the Tower?

 

In my example, they sent that BA out as an AS. That shows that the woman is an AS to EVERYONE but herself and the DO. The world thinks she is and the Tower thinks she is an AS. For all practical purposes she is an AS.

[Suttree]

In my example, they sent that BA out as an AS. That shows that the woman is an AS to EVERYONE but herself and the DO. The world thinks she is and the Tower thinks she is an AS.

 

And with that statement this portion of the argument is officially over.

 

Can you attribute individual actions to the WT as a whole? Just because 2 people were trying to prove they existed, doesnt' mean the Tower tried. given the Tower officially refuses to believe in the BA, that the actions of those few would be in the same catagory as the actions of the BA, rogue doings.

 

Yes they are AS. They along with the BA hunters hold to the mandate of the WT in fighting the shadow. There is no rule how one must go about those goals and it matters little whether you work as a group or individual. They are still AS. You can not even remotely compare that to the actions of the BA who have not only severed their oaths to the WT to join another group but are also working in direct opposition.

[thisguy]

In my example, they sent that BA out as an AS. That shows that the woman is an AS to EVERYONE but herself and the DO. The world thinks she is and the Tower thinks she is an AS.

 

And with that statement this portion of the argument is officially over.

 

Can you attribute individual actions to the WT as a whole? Just because 2 people were trying to prove they existed, doesnt' mean the Tower tried. given the Tower officially refuses to believe in the BA, that the actions of those few would be in the same catagory as the actions of the BA, rogue doings.

 

Yes they are AS. They along with the BA hunters hold to the mandate of the WT in fighting the shadow. There is no rule how one must go about those goals and it matters little whether you work as a group or individual. They are still AS. You can not even remotely compare that to the actions of the BA who have not only severed their oaths to the WT to join another group but are also working in direct opposition.

HAhaha! No, it's not. If the Tower treats her as an AS and sends her out as an AS that only proves they are completely responsible for her actions.

[thisguy]

In my example, they sent that BA out as an AS. That shows that the woman is an AS to EVERYONE but herself and the DO. The world thinks she is and the Tower thinks she is an AS.

 

And with that statement this portion of the argument is officially over.

 

Can you attribute individual actions to the WT as a whole? Just because 2 people were trying to prove they existed, doesnt' mean the Tower tried. given the Tower officially refuses to believe in the BA, that the actions of those few would be in the same catagory as the actions of the BA, rogue doings.

 

Yes they are AS. They along with the BA hunters hold to the mandate of the WT in fighting the shadow. There is no rule how one must go about those goals and it matters little whether you work as a group or individual. They are still AS. You can not even remotely compare that to the actions of the BA who have not only severed their oaths to the WT to join another group but are also working in direct opposition.

Where does it say there is an AS mandate to fight the shadow? There isn't. The three oaths don't even say that. And, while there are no rules, there is supposed to be an order. We see AS after AS hiding what they do from each other, doing things that are punishable by tower law.

[thisguy]

By the way, didn't Verin become a BA? So, you can't hold her up as an AS fighting the BA. By your definition, she's a BA fighting the BA.

 

See, even you think BA are AS.

[Vardar]

In my example, they sent that BA out as an AS. That shows that the woman is an AS to EVERYONE but herself and the DO. The world thinks she is and the Tower thinks she is an AS.

 

And with that statement this portion of the argument is officially over.

 

Can you attribute individual actions to the WT as a whole? Just because 2 people were trying to prove they existed, doesnt' mean the Tower tried. given the Tower officially refuses to believe in the BA, that the actions of those few would be in the same catagory as the actions of the BA, rogue doings.

 

Yes they are AS. They along with the BA hunters hold to the mandate of the WT in fighting the shadow. There is no rule how one must go about those goals and it matters little whether you work as a group or individual. They are still AS. You can not even remotely compare that to the actions of the BA who have not only severed their oaths to the WT to join another group but are also working in direct opposition.

 

They are AS, but the Official stance of the WT is there is no BA, so they're not fighting against it. But your own defintion, they're going against the tower. I think they're perfectly comparable.

 

And I hate to say it, but Guy is right, Verin swore those DO oaths, but your definitions she's not AS.

[Suttree]

And I hate to say it, but Guy is right, Verin swore those DO oaths, but your definitions she's not AS.

 

This has always been a tricky one and there have been some pretty epic flame wars over the years. She more than anything would be close to the "rogue" character you guys are talking about(rogue to the BA). Yes she foreswore the oaths but she did so in greater service to the light and fighting the shadow. She is a true AS to the core.

 

@thiguy

 

It is implicit that the WT mandate is to fight the shadow and an AS must serve the light. Moiriane discusses it in detail and it should go without saying that is the case. More proof is in how BA sisters when found are stilled and executed. BA is an AS in name only, not in spirit. You yourself admitted as much ins post #152.

[Vardar]

And I hate to say it, but Guy is right, Verin swore those DO oaths, but your definitions she's not AS.

 

This has always been a tricky one and there have been some pretty epic flame wars over the years. She more than anything would be close to the "rogue" character you guys are talking about(rogue to the BA). Yes she foreswore the oaths but she did so in greater service to the light and fighting the shadow. She is a true AS to the core.

 

@thiguy

 

It is implicit that the WT mandate is to fight the shadow and an AS must serve the light. Moiriane discusses it in detail and it should go without saying that is the case. More proof is in how BA sisters when found are stilled and executed. BA is an AS in name only, not in spirit. You yourself admitted as much ins post #152.

 

Pre-This year (book time)

 

How many BA sisters were found and excuted? None that I can think of...

[thisguy]

And I hate to say it, but Guy is right, Verin swore those DO oaths, but your definitions she's not AS.

 

This has always been a tricky one and there have been some pretty epic flame wars over the years. She more than anything would be close to the "rogue" character you guys are talking about(rogue to the BA). Yes she foreswore the oaths but she did so in greater service to the light and fighting the shadow. She is a true AS to the core.

 

@thiguy

 

It is implicit that the WT mandate is to fight the shadow and an AS must serve the light. Moiriane discusses it in detail and it should go without saying that is the case. More proof is in how BA sisters when found are stilled and executed. BA is an AS in name only, not in spirit. You yourself admitted as much ins post #152.

 

I'm sorry, you can't say someone is not an AS when they forswear themselves to the DO and then say, not in this case. The BA we say are AS have all the honors and entitlements of any AS - they have the ring, they may sleep in the tower, they have the finances of the tower, some are advisors and officers of the tower, they may use the resources of the tower, including money and the library. They are Aes Sedai. You can't have it both ways here, man.

 

I can get a job at friendy's as a waiter but call myself a musician - I'm still a waiter at friendly's. What makes these women AS is that the Tower treats them as AS. That is Exactly why the Tower is responsible for them.

[Suttree]

And I hate to say it, but Guy is right, Verin swore those DO oaths, but your definitions she's not AS.

 

This has always been a tricky one and there have been some pretty epic flame wars over the years. She more than anything would be close to the "rogue" character you guys are talking about(rogue to the BA). Yes she foreswore the oaths but she did so in greater service to the light and fighting the shadow. She is a true AS to the core.

 

@thiguy

 

It is implicit that the WT mandate is to fight the shadow and an AS must serve the light. Moiriane discusses it in detail and it should go without saying that is the case. More proof is in how BA sisters when found are stilled and executed. BA is an AS in name only, not in spirit. You yourself admitted as much ins post #152.

 

I'm sorry, you can't say someone is not an AS when they forswear themselves to the DO and then say, not in this case. The BA we say are AS have all the honors and entitlements of any AS - they have the ring, they may sleep in the tower, they have the finances of the tower, some are advisors and officers of the tower, they may use the resources of the tower, including money and the library. They are Aes Sedai. You can't have it both ways here, man.

 

Not sure what about AS in "name" not in "spirit" you are having trouble with. It is not both ways in the slightest. Is Verin not an AS in "spirit" if she is making the ultimate sacrifice to serve the light?

 

thisguy every single other poster besides you in this thread(and maybe shortkut) has agreed AS are responsible for rooting out the BA but can not be blamed for the BA's actions(let alone the forsaken which is laughable) as part of a seperate organization in service to the DO.

[thisguy]

Your argument about Verin is a good one but it contradicts your other argument. Your first argument states simply that an AS breaks her oaths when she swears herself to the DO and is, thus, no longer AS.

 

This argument for Verin states that her reasoning or principles overrides her oaths. I thought by your argument that the Oaths were what makes an AS an AS.

[thisguy]

And I hate to say it, but Guy is right, Verin swore those DO oaths, but your definitions she's not AS.

 

This has always been a tricky one and there have been some pretty epic flame wars over the years. She more than anything would be close to the "rogue" character you guys are talking about(rogue to the BA). Yes she foreswore the oaths but she did so in greater service to the light and fighting the shadow. She is a true AS to the core.

 

@thiguy

 

It is implicit that the WT mandate is to fight the shadow and an AS must serve the light. Moiriane discusses it in detail and it should go without saying that is the case. More proof is in how BA sisters when found are stilled and executed. BA is an AS in name only, not in spirit. You yourself admitted as much ins post #152.

 

I'm sorry, you can't say someone is not an AS when they forswear themselves to the DO and then say, not in this case. The BA we say are AS have all the honors and entitlements of any AS - they have the ring, they may sleep in the tower, they have the finances of the tower, some are advisors and officers of the tower, they may use the resources of the tower, including money and the library. They are Aes Sedai. You can't have it both ways here, man.

 

Not sure what about AS in "name" not in "spirit" you are having trouble with. It is not both ways in the slightest. Is Verin not an AS in "spirit" if she is making the ultimate sacrifice to serve the light?

 

thisguy every single other poster besides you in this thread(and maybe shortkut) has agreed AS are responsible for rooting out the BA but can not be blamed for the BA's actions(let alone the forsaken which is laughable) as part of a seperate organization in service to the DO.

I could care less - are we getting into ad hom attacks. There are a billion communist chinese, maybe we should turn communist. Not to mention, that not everyone agrees with you. Your argument is flawed. She is not AS or she is, by your own definition.

[Suttree]

Your argument about Verin is a good one but it contradicts your other argument. Your first argument states simply that an AS breaks her oaths when she swears herself to the DO and is, thus, no longer AS.

 

It doesn't in the slightest. I have said all along that they are AS in name not in spirtit and that the WT has a mandate to fight the shadow. When a BA foreswears their oaths, joins the new organization and serves the shadow they are no longer AS. That is what I have claimed all along.

 

Edit: Ad hom attacks? What would give you that idea in the slightest? I admire your passion but keep it cool my man. We are just having a fun debate is all. You can say I am wrong or my argument as flawed as many times as you want but you know that doesn't make it true correct? You have to prove it and so far you have come up well short as people have jumped in to point out. All I was doing by pointing at the numbers is at the very least you should realize it's not as cut and dry as you keep trying to make out.

[thisguy]

In fact, before you backtrack, you looked at Verin as an AS, not a BA. This is exactly what I'm saying. By the Tower allowing or sending BA out as AS, they are AS for all practical purposes. And, that means, the Tower is responsible for them. A member of the Senate or the army doing work for a foreign enemy is member of the Senate or the Army until they are tried and imprisoned.

[thisguy]

Your argument about Verin is a good one but it contradicts your other argument. Your first argument states simply that an AS breaks her oaths when she swears herself to the DO and is, thus, no longer AS.

 

It doesn't in th slightest. I have said all along that they are AS in name not in spirtit and that the WT has a mandate to fight the shadow. When a BA foreswears their oaths, joins the new organization and serves the shadow they are no longer AS. That is what I have claimed all along.

You have not said that all along.

 

Right. So, Verin is not an As. Great. By your definition, that is.

[thisguy]

If a police officer commits a crime, the police force may be sued. why? Because they are responsible. It is the same here. That's actually one of the main reasons the AS haven't faced the problem, it would destroy their legitimacy and power in the world.

[Suttree]

Your argument about Verin is a good one but it contradicts your other argument. Your first argument states simply that an AS breaks her oaths when she swears herself to the DO and is, thus, no longer AS.

 

It doesn't in th slightest. I have said all along that they are AS in name not in spirtit and that the WT has a mandate to fight the shadow. When a BA foreswears their oaths, joins the new organization and serves the shadow they are no longer AS. That is what I have claimed all along.

You have not said that all along.

 

Right. So, Verin is not an As. Great. By your definition, that is.

 

Yes she is because she is in spirit. In fact Mastar Ablar concurred with me on that point of in "spirit" not "name" pages and pages ago all you have to do is go back and read the thread. Maybe take a break and come back when you have cooled off a bit?

 

Notice the time stamp below

In name only, not in spirit. The may still carry the name, but it's a lie, and it does not represent what WT stands for.

 

Exactly my point. Thisguy is hung up on the technicality of the name. When judging the WT you don't count the actions of Forsaken and BA on the ledger.

 

& another

 

Are they called AS in name sure, but they serve the DO. It is a matter of allegiance not title.

[thisguy]

Ummmm... no.... sorry. There you are saying that the BA are members of the AS in name but not in spirit. That is different than saying that Verin is a member of the BA in name but a member of the AS in spirit. And, you saying that they are members in name proves my entire point. On one hand your argument is that the Oaths make them AS or BA. Now, your argument is that there spirit is what makes them. How would the Tower or the BA even know what they feel in their hearts?

 

I'm glad you have people who have agreed with you. So have I. And, we've had people who agree with this part of your argument and this part of my argument. So?

 

You posted that Verin was Aes Sedai. From the beginning I have said the Tower is responsible for their members. That is my point. Any woman who has a ring freely given to them by the tower and acting under the authority of the Tower is an AS when dealing with the world. Your posts about her as AS went on for a couple of pages. To you she is AS. As I said before, if the world thinks you're AS because the Tower backs you, then you are.

[Suttree]

Ummmm... no.... sorry. There you are saying that the BA are members of the AS in name but not in spirit. That is different than saying that Verin is a member of the BA in name but a member of the AS in spirit. And, you saying that they are members in name proves my entire point. On one hand your argument is that the Oaths make them AS or BA. Now, your argument is that there spirit is what makes them. How would the Tower or the BA even know what they feel in their hearts?

 

I'm glad you have people who have agreed with you. So have I. And, we've had people who agree with this part of your argument and this part of my argument. So?

 

Have you had one person aside from short agree AS are to blame for BA actions? Would be intrested to see that. I could be wrong but I don't recall it.

 

Again your logic falls short here. The overriding point is BA are AS in "name" only. That inversely also makes Verin(my quote above concerning allegiance not title can be applied directly to her) a BA member in "name" only. My argument has never changed. The fact the BA swear new oaths and forsake their old organization and service to the light only highlights my point further.

[thisguy]

Ummmm... no.... sorry. There you are saying that the BA are members of the AS in name but not in spirit. That is different than saying that Verin is a member of the BA in name but a member of the AS in spirit. And, you saying that they are members in name proves my entire point. On one hand your argument is that the Oaths make them AS or BA. Now, your argument is that there spirit is what makes them. How would the Tower or the BA even know what they feel in their hearts?

 

I'm glad you have people who have agreed with you. So have I. And, we've had people who agree with this part of your argument and this part of my argument. So?

 

Have you had one person aside from short agree AS are to blame for BA actions? Would be intrested to see that. I could be wrong but I don't recall it.

 

Again your logic falls short here. The overriding point is BA are AS in "name" only. That inversely also makes Verin(my quote above concerning allegiance not title can be applied directly to her) a BA member in "name" only. My argument has never changed. The fact the BA swear new oaths and forsake their old organization only highlights my point further.

 

Right and the fact that the entire world look at the BA as AS with the Towers full endorsement only proves my point. Any governing body with traitors is responsible for their traitors actions. Obviously, a Senator betraying the US to any other country is no longer holding up his or her oaths to uphold the Constitution. But, they are still Senators in name and in fact until tried and convicted.

 

And, by the way, your argument before hinged on the breaking and swearing of new oaths, not on the reason for doing it. They are two separate arguments.

[Suttree]

And, by the way, your argument before hinged on the breaking and swearing of new oaths, not on the reason for doing it. They are two separate arguments.

 

I have shown you the time stamps that put paid to this being false. Not sure why you continue when everyone can read what happend.

 

You have already condemned yourself long ago with this statement.

 

That shows that the woman is an AS to EVERYONE but herself and the DO.

 

If she isn't an AS to herself and the DO then she has forsaken her oaths and the implicit AS mandate to serve the light. She is an AS in name only. They are part of a separate organization, which swears separate oaths, that serves a separate master. It is all the same argument and you trapped yourself with the statement above.

 

I do understand you trying to split hairs and pretend there is a difference in arguments as it is the only way you can keep holding on by a thread but at some point you need to give over. Just because you miscontrued the point we were all making don't try to act as if the arguments are different. Mastar Ablar, Mr Ares and I to name a few have all said the same thing.

 

In summary AS are responsible for rooting out the BA but can not be blaimed for their actions. A forsaken(are you even disputing this one anymore) and BA stop being AS when they swear to the DO. They have forsaken their oaths and service to the light and remain AS in "name" only. There really is no point to continue rehashing this. I have enjoyed the conversation however.

[thisguy]

Considering my entire argument is that they are AS because the Tower says they are, I have not condemned myself at all. In any court, the Tower would be responsible for the actions of its members.

[thisguy]

And, by the way, your argument before hinged on the breaking and swearing of new oaths, not on the reason for doing it. They are two separate arguments.

 

I have shown you the time stamps that put paid to this being false. Not sure why you continue when everyone can read what happend.

 

You have already condemned yourself long ago with this statement.

 

That shows that the woman is an AS to EVERYONE but herself and the DO.

 

If she isn't an AS to herself and the DO then she has forsaken her oaths and the implicit AS mandate to serve the light. She is an AS in name only. They are part of a separate organization, which swears separate oaths, that serves a separate master. It is all the same argument and you trapped yourself with the statement above.

 

I do understand you trying to split hairs and pretend there is a difference in arguments as it is the only way you can keep holding on by a thread but at some point you need to give over. Just because you miscontrued the point we were all making don't try to act as if the arguments are different. Mastar Ablar, Mr Ares and I to name a few have all said the same thing. There really is no point to continue rehashing this. I have enjoyed the conversation however.

First off, I don't care if everyone thinks I am wrong. There have been scientists who have been laughed at and even imprisoned for their beliefs and have been found to be correct.

 

Verin has sworn herself to the DO, how can she be AS? That's where the 'hair splitting' comes into place, because you made a point before, and now, that this is why they are not truly AS. So, an AS who is selfish and does what she wants but never swears an oath to the DO is not an AS - if she doesn't fight for the light?

[thisguy]

And, I looked at one page and found two people who agree with me: Knivy and Morden. Until you're kicked out of the Tower, your AS. So there.