Why You Hatin' on Me? (asks Egwene, Nynaeve, Faile, etc)

[XXX]

All talk. It's the same disgruntled mumbling we hear in every region Rand takes over. And again, there's still no evidence that the majority of Andorans are willing to rise up against Rand. Elayne's words are extremely vague in regards to how many people have actually expressed that sentiment. In all the time Rand ruled, there were no plots against him, no rebellions like there were in Tear or elsewhere. The only incident in Andor was the power grab by Elenia and Naean, which was influenced by Rand's kidnapping and the meddling of the Aes Sedai, rather than any popular rebellion. The belief that the Andorans would actively rise and take back their country seems more like a naive belief of the nobility born from their sense of entitlement over the rule of their nation than anything else. If there were a serious rebellion or a riot, or if a usurper had historically taken power and then been driven out by a grassroots rebellion then Elayne's beliefs would be more realistic.

 

Not true in terms of plots and incidents, there was the other rebellion in Aringill that Dyelin(trying to place her as Queen) had to put down that happened while Rand was firmly in power. That incident highlights the fact that Rand controlled Caemlyn and nothing more.

 

The second quote provided says Elayne heard a "great deal" and that everyone even thos anti-Trakand believed "Rand Al Thor an invader". You can deny it all you want but RJ took pains to show us what both the nobles and commoners were thinking. Andor is different than any other country in it's patriotism this is told to us time and time again throughout the books. It is all written clearly in the text, if you have quote to back up your interpretation please provide them. Otherwise let's stick with the picture RJ painted.

 

Not sure how patriotic people of Andor are...the greater 2 Rivers area wanted to carve their own kingdom out.

[XXX]

If one group has travelling like the Ashaman...just a small group say 10 of them can be used to assassinate every single noble in Andor who rises against Rand. There can be no rebellion if there are no leaders.

And no one in their right mind will take on chaneelers..which is why the BT stays in Andor. No one can do anything about it.

Ituralde took on channelers. Is he not in his right mind? (I suppose that chaneelers might be more dangerous than mere channelers, but I don't of any chaneelers.) And assassinating every noble in the Kingdom does you no good if the commoners are rebelling, and find their own leaders. Commoners can rebel, remember, they don't need nobles to lead them. So will you kill every commoner who rises against Rand? How can you be sure you've got them all? Best to make sure - kill everyone in Andor.

 

 

Ah..sarcasm.

 

Ituralde won one big battle against "channelers" which also decimated his own forces and he was dead in the water till Rand came. Moreover he could see damane and prepare for them..Ash'aman can remove their coat and melt into the population.

 

As for the assassination strategy..kill the leaders and every revolt will fizzle out. Revolts are led by leaders.Cut all the leaders down and the people will go back to their lives. That is how every nation that was conquered in the history of the world was subdued.

[Suttree]

All talk. It's the same disgruntled mumbling we hear in every region Rand takes over. And again, there's still no evidence that the majority of Andorans are willing to rise up against Rand. Elayne's words are extremely vague in regards to how many people have actually expressed that sentiment. In all the time Rand ruled, there were no plots against him, no rebellions like there were in Tear or elsewhere. The only incident in Andor was the power grab by Elenia and Naean, which was influenced by Rand's kidnapping and the meddling of the Aes Sedai, rather than any popular rebellion. The belief that the Andorans would actively rise and take back their country seems more like a naive belief of the nobility born from their sense of entitlement over the rule of their nation than anything else. If there were a serious rebellion or a riot, or if a usurper had historically taken power and then been driven out by a grassroots rebellion then Elayne's beliefs would be more realistic.

 

Not true in terms of plots and incidents, there was the other rebellion in Aringill that Dyelin(trying to place her as Queen) had to put down that happened while Rand was firmly in power. That incident highlights the fact that Rand controlled Caemlyn and nothing more.

 

The second quote provided says Elayne heard a "great deal" and that everyone even thos anti-Trakand believed "Rand Al Thor an invader". You can deny it all you want but RJ took pains to show us what both the nobles and commoners were thinking. Andor is different than any other country in it's patriotism this is told to us time and time again throughout the books. It is all written clearly in the text, if you have quote to back up your interpretation please provide them. Otherwise let's stick with the picture RJ painted.

 

Not sure how patriotic people of Andor are...the greater 2 Rivers area wanted to carve their own kingdom out.

 

The 2Rs and a few other extreme remote areas have already been discussed in this thread as the few places where the sentiment would obviously be different. If you can draw a comparison between the way they think with large cities and areas closer to the capitol please do so. Andor's patriotism is well documented in text.

 

Nevertheless that will change very quickly with Perrin as Steward. Now when Elayne calls the banners the 2Rs marches.

 

Ituralde won one big battle against "channelers" which also decimated his own forces and he was dead in the water till Rand came. Moreover he could see damane and prepare for them..Ash'aman can remove their coat and melt into the population.

 

You keep making points that have zero to do with reality in this series. Ituralde won a series of guerilla battles against the Seanchan and Damane. His back was to the wall finally after a long campaign against superior forces. It is exactly the type of fight that Rand could not afford to have leading up to TG.

 

As for Ashaman are you proposing that Rand wages a guerilla war against what would be his own people? Secret Ashaman soldiers acting as police? This is not Seander, nothing would turn the country against him quicker.

[Guest PiotrekS]

All talk. It's the same disgruntled mumbling we hear in every region Rand takes over. And again, there's still no evidence that the majority of Andorans are willing to rise up against Rand. Elayne's words are extremely vague in regards to how many people have actually expressed that sentiment. In all the time Rand ruled, there were no plots against him, no rebellions like there were in Tear or elsewhere. The only incident in Andor was the power grab by Elenia and Naean, which was influenced by Rand's kidnapping and the meddling of the Aes Sedai, rather than any popular rebellion. The belief that the Andorans would actively rise and take back their country seems more like a naive belief of the nobility born from their sense of entitlement over the rule of their nation than anything else. If there were a serious rebellion or a riot, or if a usurper had historically taken power and then been driven out by a grassroots rebellion then Elayne's beliefs would be more realistic.

 

Not true in terms of plots and incidents, there was the other rebellion in Aringill that Dyelin(trying to place her as Queen) had to put down that happened while Rand was firmly in power. That incident highlights the fact that Rand controlled Caemlyn and nothing more.

 

The second quote provided says Elayne heard a "great deal" and that everyone even thos anti-Trakand believed "Rand Al Thor an invader". You can deny it all you want but RJ took pains to show us what both the nobles and commoners were thinking. Andor is different than any other country in it's patriotism this is told to us time and time again throughout the books. It is all written clearly in the text, if you have quote to back up your interpretation please provide them. Otherwise let's stick with the picture RJ painted.

 

Not sure how patriotic people of Andor are...the greater 2 Rivers area wanted to carve their own kingdom out.

 

The 2Rs and a few other extreme remote areas have already been discussed in this thread as the few places where the sentiment would obviously be different. If you can draw a comparison between the way they think with large cities and areas closer to the capitol please do so. Andor's patriotism is well documented in text.

 

Nevertheless that will change very quickly with Perrin as Steward. Now when Elayne calls the banners the 2Rs marches.

 

Remote areas, as opposed to flat, densely populated and crisscrossed with good roads region around Caemlyn is what would be absolutely necessary for any kind of guerilla warfare.People living in such areas are much less likely not only to rebel themselves, but even to give any support to the rebelious nobles and their patriotic followers.

 

2R would never march against Rand. The agreement between Elayne and Perrin had nothing to do with Andoran patriotism.

[Suttree]

Remote areas, as opposed to flat, densely populated and crisscrossed with good roads region around Caemlyn is what would be absolutely necessary for any kind of guerilla warfare.People living in such areas are much less likely not only to rebel themselves, but even to give any support to the rebelious nobles and their patriotic followers.

 

2R would never march against Rand. The agreement between Elayne and Perrin had nothing to do with Andoran patriotism.

 

First as to Perrin's allegiance I wasn't meaning in a conflict with Rand. Was speaking to the 2Rs patriotism moving forward and how it will be integrated into Andor. There time as a sleepy backwater removed from the world is over.

 

As for your point yes remote areas are good but the 2Rs is at the extreme of that. Look at a map of Andor, there is a ton of land to do what you say above, the 2Rs would be just about the last place you would stage what we are discussing.

 

The point is we know the 2Rs is the one exception in this entire world that Jordan created ala the Shire for LoTR. It can not be compared to anywhere else in Andor.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Remote areas, as opposed to flat, densely populated and crisscrossed with good roads region around Caemlyn is what would be absolutely necessary for any kind of guerilla warfare.People living in such areas are much less likely not only to rebel themselves, but even to give any support to the rebelious nobles and their patriotic followers.

 

2R would never march against Rand. The agreement between Elayne and Perrin had nothing to do with Andoran patriotism.

 

First as to Perrin's allegiance I wasn't meaning in this conflict. Was speaking to the 2Rs patriotism moving forward.

 

As for your point yes remote areas are good but the 2Rs is at the extreme of that. Look at a map of Andor, there is a ton of land to do what you say above, the 2Rs would be just about the last place you would stage what we are discussing.

 

The point is we know the 2Rs is the one exception in the entire world ala the Shire for LoTR. It can not be compared to the rest of the country.

 

Ok, but might I just point out that any patriotism that began to develop in 2Rs was their own local one, reinforced by the memory of Menetheren. They don't feel connected with the queen in Caemlyn.

 

I agree 2Rs is an extreme case in its remotness and lack of ties with the throne, but similar if not as extreme processes probably take place in a lot of peripheral areas. Mountains of Mist is another area we are told about which is pretty autonomous and lives its own life. In other places the Andoran patriotism might be stronger, but still much weaker than in Caemlyn, therefore lessening the changes for unequivocal support for the rebels in places where they would need it the most.

 

Still, we are discussing a totally impossible scenario in excruciating detail

[MasterAblar]

He would find it much harder to take them on one by one if they were linked. They can't see his weaves, but he can't see theirs either. For Elayne alone it might be too hard a fight, but if he is having to take on, say, two links of two, he is outnumbered and outgunned. They're probably stronger than him as well, and he would find it hard to win a fight. He's either run or die in all likelihood.

 

In addition to what Piotrek said, while Rahvin cannot see their weaves that doesn't stop him from defending against them, which is precisely what the supergirls do not know how to do. In a circle they would be stronger than him, but it would also leave those who are not weaving vulnerable. While they would have the advantage in strength, Rahvin would have the advantage in skill, experience, and knowledge. And they don't even know how to defend against his weaves.

 

The only way they could defeat him is by taking him completely by surprise and killing him before he even has a chance to react.

 

They didn't have to flee to the BT, they weren't shunned or rejected. Most of them are learners. And even so, they will not necessarily be so keen to turn their backs on their country and slaughter their countrymen.

 

Doesn't mean they will agree with the official stance when push comes to shove and their families, friends and neighbours are in the firing line.

 

I get the impression that insubordination is a pretty dangerous move in the BT. If they refuse to do what they're told, it could go as far as executions. The Ashaman were made to be weapons. I doubt there would be many protest against fighting a rebellion, whether it's in their own country or not.

 

Now slaughtering people they might care less for. I remember one of the Ashaman with Logain saying he didn't care for "the butcher's yard", and that while he does what he's told, he doesn't have to like it. I don't how heartless they can be, but it's hardly unheard of in history for the police or the army to open fire on it's own civilians.

[Suttree]

I don't how heartless they can be, but it's hardly unheard of in history for the police or the army to open fire on it's own civilians.

 

In a country like Andor, the only Democratic Monarchy in Randland that would set the country up like a tinderbox. It would be the single quickest way to turn everyone against him.

[MasterAblar]

You keep making points that have zero to do with reality in this series. Ituralde won a series of guerilla battles against the Seanchan and Damane. His back was to the wall finally after a long campaign against superior forces. It is exactly the type of fight that Rand could not afford to have leading up to TG.

 

As for Ashaman are you proposing that Rand wages a guerilla war against what would be his own people? Secret Ashaman soldiers acting as police? This is not Seander, nothing would turn the country against him quicker.

 

Yes, well, one must remember that Ituralde is sort one of the greatest generals in the westlands. I doubt the andorans have anyone like that (seeing as Gareth Bryne is with the Aes Sedai, and is not one to go back on his oaths).

 

Also, the difference between Ituralde, and a hypothetical andoran rebellion, is that Ituralde already had a large army, which he had all the time in the world to organise, with vast lands to hide, or fall back on. He actually attacked the seanchan first, in a sort of Pearl Harbor scenario. The andorans on the other hand, would be completely unorganised, and if Rand moves quickly, they would also be leaderless.

 

The Ashaman give Rand a ridiculous advantage that obviously goes beyond their abilities in battle. Mainly travelling, which would allow Rand to respond swiftly and decisively against any strike on his forces. And how many times has it been said that if you have seen an Aiel, it's because he meant for you to see him? They'd have a hard time surprising Rand's forces which is basically what hit and run tactics are about. That and superior speed, which the andorans do not possess. Once they suffer enough losses, they'll wonder if it's really worth it. Afterall what does it matter who sits on the throne to commoners? At first they might feel that they must unseat whoever is sitting on the throne (and if Rand is smart he'll have chose an andoran noble anyway), but after a few months of bloody and fruitless rebellion, they might feel differently, especially if it's an andoran noble on the throne in the first place.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I don't how heartless they can be, but it's hardly unheard of in history for the police or the army to open fire on it's own civilians.

 

In a country like Andor, the only Democratic Monarchy in Randland that would set the country up like a tinderbox. It would be the single quickest way to turn everyone against him.

 

True, but they wouldn't be fighting civilians but armed rebel soldiers.

 

Another things - yes, Andor is shown to be distinctly different than Cairhien or Tear. People speak their own mind and are less servile. But it is not a democracy, nor a democratic monarchy! The throne belongs to one of the great houses and they choose a new queen in case of Succession among themselves. At most, it should be called oligarchical monarchy. It isn't as though Elayne or Morgase was elected in free ballot by all the Andorans or that those average Andorans were even asked for the opinion.

 

what is worse, the choice during the Succession in made with hectolitres of commoner blood being spilled in the fighting and the nobles risk getting arrested for ransom, in worst case banition. That alone should show hoe undemocratic Andor in reality is, and how different is the way even Elayne thinks from what we see as democratic. You could argue that the common people are actuall less well off with a system that allows for occasional civil war for a throne than with the one which would firmly fix the rules in Seanchan style and limit the fighting to back-stabbing among the ruling class.

 

I would say especially Aiel are more democratic than Andor since the distance betwen the chiefs and common people is smaller and the chiefs are not chosen according to blood criteria.

[MasterAblar]

I don't how heartless they can be, but it's hardly unheard of in history for the police or the army to open fire on it's own civilians.

 

In a country like Andor, the only Democratic Monarchy in Randland that would set the country up like a tinderbox. It would be the single quickest way to turn everyone against him.

 

If there is a rebellion, then they already are against him.

 

If anything the knowledge that they're facing male channellers capable of killing them in the blink of an eye might actually make them think twice about continuing a rebellion.

 

Obviously it's not a very nice regime that would be being set up, but with Tarmon Gaidon on the horizon...

[SuperFade]

All talk. It's the same disgruntled mumbling we hear in every region Rand takes over. And again, there's still no evidence that the majority of Andorans are willing to rise up against Rand. Elayne's words are extremely vague in regards to how many people have actually expressed that sentiment. In all the time Rand ruled, there were no plots against him, no rebellions like there were in Tear or elsewhere. The only incident in Andor was the power grab by Elenia and Naean, which was influenced by Rand's kidnapping and the meddling of the Aes Sedai, rather than any popular rebellion. The belief that the Andorans would actively rise and take back their country seems more like a naive belief of the nobility born from their sense of entitlement over the rule of their nation than anything else. If there were a serious rebellion or a riot, or if a usurper had historically taken power and then been driven out by a grassroots rebellion then Elayne's beliefs would be more realistic.

 

Not true in terms of plots and incidents, there was the other rebellion in Aringill that Dyelin(trying to place her as Queen) had to put down that happened while Rand was firmly in power. That incident highlights the fact that Rand controlled Caemlyn and nothing more.

 

I assume the 'rebellion' you are refering to is the incident mentioned in passing in Lord of Chaos chapter 24. That's the only reference I can find about fighting in that area, and it's extremely flimsy since it's a rumour heard by Egwene in Cairhein that's probably been retold three or four times. Information being muddled is a theme in the WoT, and there's a paragraph at the end of every book portraying the various versions of events people have heard. As far as I'm aware there is no other mention of rebels in Aringill, and all other rebellions occur when Rand is kidnapped.

 

And controlling Caemlyn means controlling Andor. It's the biggest, most prosperous and best defended city in the country. If it's anything like Medieval cities were in reality, it also has all the administrative systems needed to run the nation, such as the nation's treasury, courts of justice and Guild headquarters. Like it or not, posessing Andor means having power over the rest of the country.

 

The second quote provided says Elayne heard a "great deal" and that everyone even thos anti-Trakand believed "Rand Al Thor an invader". You can deny it all you want but RJ took pains to show us what both the nobles and commoners were thinking. Andor is different than any other country in it's patriotism this is told to us time and time again throughout the books. It is all written clearly in the text, if you have quote to back up your interpretation please provide them. Otherwise let's stick with the picture RJ painted.

 

So Elayne spoke to everyone in every settlement she passed through on her way to Caemlyn? She must have a lot of time on her hands. If the sentiment of marching to Caemlyn with torches and pitchforks was so prevalent, why didn't it happen? Either the sentiment was never that prevalent to begin with, or Robert Jordan was telling rather than showing. I seem to recall Rand taking part in a rally in Caemlyn where someone in the crowd proclaims him King of Andor, with Rand's reaction suggesting that it wasn't the first time it had happened.

 

What we're told in-story isn't necessarily true anyway, and Robert Jordan has used that as a narrative device before. Moiraine and others talk about how the Forsaken are unbelievably powerful and the most dangerous opponents one could possibly encounter, and yet nearly all of them go down like chumps. The reason? They're all fish out of water in the new age.

 

Characters in-story tell us that the Aes Sedai are impossibly wise and all-knowing, beings who are widely respected and feared for their power...and yet, it quickly becomes obvious that most have an extremely childish mentality with a colossal sense of entitlement on the side. The reason? Three thousand years of nearly absolute dominance without any sort of balancing force.

 

Applying this technique to Andor works as well. We're told that Andorans are fiercely proud patriots who would never allow a usurper on the Lion Throne, with both nobles and commoners agreeing. And yet, in all the time Rand rules Caemlyn, nobody lifts so much as a finger against him. The reason? The patriotic nationalism of Andor isn't nearly as strong as we are told. It's one thing to say that everyone should march on Caemlyn and oust Rand from power, but another thing entirely to actually grab your pitchfork and do it. Like I said before, it's all talk.

[Guest PiotrekS]

All talk. It's the same disgruntled mumbling we hear in every region Rand takes over. And again, there's still no evidence that the majority of Andorans are willing to rise up against Rand. Elayne's words are extremely vague in regards to how many people have actually expressed that sentiment. In all the time Rand ruled, there were no plots against him, no rebellions like there were in Tear or elsewhere. The only incident in Andor was the power grab by Elenia and Naean, which was influenced by Rand's kidnapping and the meddling of the Aes Sedai, rather than any popular rebellion. The belief that the Andorans would actively rise and take back their country seems more like a naive belief of the nobility born from their sense of entitlement over the rule of their nation than anything else. If there were a serious rebellion or a riot, or if a usurper had historically taken power and then been driven out by a grassroots rebellion then Elayne's beliefs would be more realistic.

 

Not true in terms of plots and incidents, there was the other rebellion in Aringill that Dyelin(trying to place her as Queen) had to put down that happened while Rand was firmly in power. That incident highlights the fact that Rand controlled Caemlyn and nothing more.

 

I assume the 'rebellion' you are refering to is the incident mentioned in passing in Lord of Chaos chapter 24. That's the only reference I can find about fighting in that area, and it's extremely flimsy since it's a rumour heard by Egwene in Cairhein that's probably been retold three or four times. Information being muddled is a theme in the WoT, and there's a paragraph at the end of every book portraying the various versions of events people have heard. As far as I'm aware there is no other mention of rebels in Aringill, and all other rebellions occur when Rand is kidnapped.

 

And controlling Caemlyn means controlling Andor. It's the biggest, most prosperous and best defended city in the country. If it's anything like Medieval cities were in reality, it also has all the administrative systems needed to run the nation, such as the nation's treasury, courts of justice and Guild headquarters. Like it or not, posessing Andor means having power over the rest of the country.

 

The second quote provided says Elayne heard a "great deal" and that everyone even thos anti-Trakand believed "Rand Al Thor an invader". You can deny it all you want but RJ took pains to show us what both the nobles and commoners were thinking. Andor is different than any other country in it's patriotism this is told to us time and time again throughout the books. It is all written clearly in the text, if you have quote to back up your interpretation please provide them. Otherwise let's stick with the picture RJ painted.

 

So Elayne spoke to everyone in every settlement she passed through on her way to Caemlyn? She must have a lot of time on her hands. If the sentiment of marching to Caemlyn with torches and pitchforks was so prevalent, why didn't it happen? Either the sentiment was never that prevalent to begin with, or Robert Jordan was telling rather than showing. I seem to recall Rand taking part in a rally in Caemlyn where someone in the crowd proclaims him King of Andor, with Rand's reaction suggesting that it wasn't the first time it had happened.

 

What we're told in-story isn't necessarily true anyway, and Robert Jordan has used that as a narrative device before. Moiraine and others talk about how the Forsaken are unbelievably powerful and the most dangerous opponents one could possibly encounter, and yet nearly all of them go down like chumps. The reason? They're all fish out of water in the new age.

 

Characters in-story tell us that the Aes Sedai are impossibly wise and all-knowing, beings who are widely respected and feared for their power...and yet, it quickly becomes obvious that most have an extremely childish mentality with a colossal sense of entitlement on the side. The reason? Three thousand years of nearly absolute dominance without any sort of balancing force.

 

Applying this technique to Andor works as well. We're told that Andorans are fiercely proud patriots who would never allow a usurper on the Lion Throne, with both nobles and commoners agreeing. And yet, in all the time Rand rules Caemlyn, nobody lifts so much as a finger against him. The reason? The patriotic nationalism of Andor isn't nearly as strong as we are told. It's one thing to say that everyone should march on Caemlyn and oust Rand from power, but another thing entirely to actually grab your pitchfork and do it. Like I said before, it's all talk.

 

I like this interpretation. It takes some of the glaring inconsistencies one unfortunately often encounters in WOT and portrays them as a consious literary choice by RJ. Why not, it works.

[Suttree]

I assume the 'rebellion' you are refering to is the incident mentioned in passing in Lord of Chaos chapter 24. That's the only reference I can find about fighting in that area, and it's extremely flimsy since it's a rumour heard by Egwene in Cairhein that's probably been retold three or four times. Information being muddled is a theme in the WoT, and there's a paragraph at the end of every book portraying the various versions of events people have heard. As far as I'm aware there is no other mention of rebels in Aringill, and all other rebellions occur when Rand is kidnapped.

 

Not what I was referring to(now we have two examples) and you are wrong about Aringill.

 

“Take the throne?” Deira said incredulously, and her husband laughed out loud.

 

“I have no understanding of wetlander ways,” Bael said, “but I do not think that is what she has done.”

 

“Far from it.” Davram carried the pitcher over to pour more punch for Rand. “Some lesser lords and ladies who thought to curry favor proclaimed for her at Aringill. She moves quickly, Lady Dyelin. Within four days she had the two leaders hanged, for treason to the Daughter-Heir Elayne, and ordered another twenty flogged.” He chuckled approvingly. His wife sniffed. Likely she would have had the road lined with gibbets all the way from Aringill to Caemlyn

 

So Elayne spoke to everyone in every settlement she passed through on her way to Caemlyn? She must have a lot of time on her hands.

 

Now your just being silly. Why even attempt to have an honest debate when you are going to make statements like that. Go back and read the quote. You claimed earlier that Elayne's words were vague. In point of fact she says straight out that everyone she spoke with both pro and anti Trakand on the entire trip was against the DR being in the country.

 

Applying this technique to Andor works as well. We're told that Andorans are fiercely proud patriots who would never allow a usurper on the Lion Throne, with both nobles and commoners agreeing. And yet, in all the time Rand rules Caemlyn, nobody lifts so much as a finger against him. The reason? The patriotic nationalism of Andor isn't nearly as strong as we are told.

 

You have already been proving wrong in regards to rebellion ie Aringill & the LoC incident and in addition Dyelin's and the nobles intentions were clear. To add to that RJ paints a picture of the commoners mood. That is far different than a character not having all the facts on a topic such as AS, they are describing how they feel. It didn't go any further because Rand did not stay in Andor. If Rand & the Aiel(Cairhein and Aiel War fresh in everyones minds) had overstayed their welcome Dyelin and the nobles were going to come against him, it is stated straight out. She has been shown time and time again to not be the type to make idle threats. We also have a good deal of quotes in text supporting the sentiment across the country. To counter that you offer personnel opinion with no textual basis as to why what is writing doesn't actually mean what it says. Sorry my friend but you are going to have to do much better than that. Again if you can find anything from in text to support your claims please do so.

[MasterAblar]

All talk. It's the same disgruntled mumbling we hear in every region Rand takes over. And again, there's still no evidence that the majority of Andorans are willing to rise up against Rand. Elayne's words are extremely vague in regards to how many people have actually expressed that sentiment. In all the time Rand ruled, there were no plots against him, no rebellions like there were in Tear or elsewhere. The only incident in Andor was the power grab by Elenia and Naean, which was influenced by Rand's kidnapping and the meddling of the Aes Sedai, rather than any popular rebellion. The belief that the Andorans would actively rise and take back their country seems more like a naive belief of the nobility born from their sense of entitlement over the rule of their nation than anything else. If there were a serious rebellion or a riot, or if a usurper had historically taken power and then been driven out by a grassroots rebellion then Elayne's beliefs would be more realistic.

 

Not true in terms of plots and incidents, there was the other rebellion in Aringill that Dyelin(trying to place her as Queen) had to put down that happened while Rand was firmly in power. That incident highlights the fact that Rand controlled Caemlyn and nothing more.

 

I assume the 'rebellion' you are refering to is the incident mentioned in passing in Lord of Chaos chapter 24. That's the only reference I can find about fighting in that area, and it's extremely flimsy since it's a rumour heard by Egwene in Cairhein that's probably been retold three or four times. Information being muddled is a theme in the WoT, and there's a paragraph at the end of every book portraying the various versions of events people have heard. As far as I'm aware there is no other mention of rebels in Aringill, and all other rebellions occur when Rand is kidnapped.

 

And controlling Caemlyn means controlling Andor. It's the biggest, most prosperous and best defended city in the country. If it's anything like Medieval cities were in reality, it also has all the administrative systems needed to run the nation, such as the nation's treasury, courts of justice and Guild headquarters. Like it or not, posessing Andor means having power over the rest of the country.

 

It's also spoken of when Rand returns to Caemlyn in aCoS. Bashere tells him about it. A few minor nobles declared for Dyelin, and she had them hanged.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I disagree...the forsaken have centuries of experience in TAR. Their age had training ter'angreal used to teach people to walk the TAR. That can only mean that they had an extensive training program. And the first rule in TAR is that your mind controls reality in there.

 

Frankly that scene with Egwene and Messana was not written well.

 

That's not accurate, as it assumes that the Forsaken spent any major amount of those centuries in TAR, something not supported by the books. Yes, their Age had training to walk in TAR and ter'angreal to get you there... our Age has training to walk on the moon and rocketships to get you there. We know many of the basic rules, but we don't know everything. If we were to be transported into a future with our rocketships and a means of fueling them, we would be the undisputed masters of that space. But it would be arrogance and ignorance to assume that we know everything about it.

 

I would imagine that there is an assumption that because your mind controls reality, a truly arrogant mind (see: Forsaken) would leap to the conclusion against an unschooled opponent, that one's mind controls -all- reality. After all, with the dominant power, a Forsaken's reality, the one they created through this Age's a'dam, should dominate all, should it not?

 

Ignorance of what she's dealing with, and assumptions regarding the rules of TAR can kill. It was stupidly arrogant of her to be playing with an a'dam in the first place if she's had no real experience with them.

[SuperFade]

“Take the throne?” Deira said incredulously, and her husband laughed out loud.

 

“I have no understanding of wetlander ways,” Bael said, “but I do not think that is what she has done.”

 

“Far from it.” Davram carried the pitcher over to pour more punch for Rand. “Some lesser lords and ladies who thought to curry favor proclaimed for her at Aringill. She moves quickly, Lady Dyelin. Within four days she had the two leaders hanged, for treason to the Daughter-Heir Elayne, and ordered another twenty flogged.” He chuckled approvingly. His wife sniffed. Likely she would have had the road lined with gibbets all the way from Aringill to Caemlyn

 

That's not a full scale rebellion by any means. A few lesser Lords and Ladies, who only proclaimed for her (Note how there's no mention of them gathering armies) to curry favour rather than for the good of Andor. It's not indicative of the feelings of the population by any means. It wasn't a popular revolt.

 

Now your just being silly. Why even attempt to have an honest debate when you are going to make statements like that. Go back and read the quote. You claimed earlier that Elayne's words were vague. In point of fact she says straight out that everyone she spoke with both pro and anti Trakand on the entire trip was against the DR being in the country.

 

Way to misinterpret my point. We have no idea how many people Elayne spoke to. Was it ten people? Fifty? One hundred? We aren't told. Elayne uses a lot of imprecise phrases in that quote, such as, "Elayne heard a great deal about Rand," (How much is a great deal?) and "She heard it all again and again," (How many times is 'again and again'?).

 

You also might want to read your own quote again, since the line paraphrased in your last sentence actually reads, "And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader." It's 'even', not 'everyone'. So, once again, it's vague as to how many people actually hold those sentiments.

 

That's what I meant by vague. It's not possible to gauge the mood of the entirety of Andor with just that quote.

 

Applying this technique to Andor works as well. We're told that Andorans are fiercely proud patriots who would never allow a usurper on the Lion Throne, with both nobles and commoners agreeing. And yet, in all the time Rand rules Caemlyn, nobody lifts so much as a finger against him. The reason? The patriotic nationalism of Andor isn't nearly as strong as we are told.

 

You have already been proving wrong in this claim ie Aringill and in addition Dyelin's and the nobles intentions were clear. To add to that RJ paints a picture of the commoners mood. That is far different than a character not having all the facts on a topic such as AS, they are describing how they feel. It didn't go any further because Rand did not stay in Andor. If Rand & the Aiel(Cairhein and Aiel War fresh in everyones minds) had overstayed his welcome Dyelin and the nobles were going to come against him. She has been shown time and time again to not be the type to make idle threats. We have a good deal of quotes in text supporting the sentiment across the country. Again if you can find anything from in text to support your claims please do so.

 

See above, you didn't prove anything except that Aringill was the result of opportunistic nobles attempting to curry favor rather than any sense of popular patriotism. The fact of the matter is that we never see the kind of grassroots opposition that Elayne or the other nobles speak of, aside from the usual grumbling that becomes prevalent after Rand takes over a nation. I have no idea why you're dragging Dyelin into this, since my original point was about the commoners rather than the nobles.

 

You seem very fixated on getting me to use quotes in order to prove my argument. I'm guessing this is because you believe there aren't any and that a lack thereof would diminish my point. It's true that if you take all the quotes at face value then they appear to support the notion that Andorans would indeed do as you say and rise up. My argument is based on the fact that that simply doesn't happen despite all those quotes to the contrary. If the hostility towards Rand was really so great, why was there no uprising? Why was the only real rebellion led by opportunistic Lords and Ladies, rather than a general revolt by the people of Andor?

 

I would ask you to see my previous post about showing and telling. The quotes tell us that the people of Andor would rise up against a foreign usurper. But the text never shows us any acts of popular rebellion. We don't see any angry Andorans clogging the roads in an attempt to eject Rand from Caemlyn. Nor do we have proof that they have done so at any time in the past. All we do see are people talking and criticizing Rand's rule, like they do in every other country he takes over.

[Suttree]

...

 

Sigh.

 

Here are the facts. We have quotes from the nobles supporting my view. We have quotes from the commoners(yes read the thread there are others than the one you reference). Meanwhile you present opinion and nothing more.

 

In addition your question as to why has been answered a number of times. Rand left, so it never got to the point that we are all discussing. If he had stayed based on all the quotes the nobles would have came against him, they would have called their levies, and they would have had the support of the commoners.

 

’Tisn’t right, if you ask me. He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from.”

 

& later

 

And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

 

This whole discussion started with the hypothetical "what if Rand stayed and took the throne". Not sure why you would try to use the fact of no popular rebellion happening when Rand never tried to do(he only acted as regent for a short time) so in the first place to support your view?

 

RJ reinforced that viewpoint more than once in different parts of the story. You are right about one thing, there are no quotes to counter the idea. That leaves us with a personnel opinion that runs counter to the sentiment RJ portrays in the Andoran storyline. Suffice to say I'll side with the author.

[MasterAblar]

That's not accurate, as it assumes that the Forsaken spent any major amount of those centuries in TAR, something not supported by the books. Yes, their Age had training to walk in TAR and ter'angreal to get you there... our Age has training to walk on the moon and rocketships to get you there. We know many of the basic rules, but we don't know everything. If we were to be transported into a future with our rocketships and a means of fueling them, we would be the undisputed masters of that space. But it would be arrogance and ignorance to assume that we know everything about it.

 

I would imagine that there is an assumption that because your mind controls reality, a truly arrogant mind (see: Forsaken) would leap to the conclusion against an unschooled opponent, that one's mind controls -all- reality. After all, with the dominant power, a Forsaken's reality, the one they created through this Age's a'dam, should dominate all, should it not?

 

Ignorance of what she's dealing with, and assumptions regarding the rules of TAR can kill. It was stupidly arrogant of her to be playing with an a'dam in the first place if she's had no real experience with them.

 

Personally, I've never had an issue with the scene, simply because it didn't portray Egwene as being more skilled or knowledgeable than Mesaana. She won because she had great willpower, and great determination. Mesaana lost because she was arrogant enough to believe that she could simply bend Egwene to her will. To me, Mesaana showed that she had greater experience in TAR through capturing Egwene in the first place. That should have ended the fight. It didn't because there was little luck involved (not that there hasn't been in the defeat of other Forsakens). So to me Egwene didn't invent anything new, she just took advantage of Mesaana's arrogance. Which is quite believable.

 

This whole discussion started with the hypothetical "what if Rand stayed and took the throne". Not sure why you would try to use the fact of no popular rebellion happening when Rand never tried to do(he only acted as regent for a short time) so in the first place to support your view?

 

RJ reinforced that viewpoint more than once in different parts of the story. You are right about one thing, there are no quotes to counter the idea. That leaves us with a personnel opinion that runs counter to the sentiment RJ portrays in the Andoran storyline. Suffice to say I'll side with the author.

 

I think it's pretty obvious that there would have been a rebellion if Rand had tried to take power in Andor for himself, not just from the nobles, but from the people as well once they learned. Rand is an outsider so far as the andorans are concerned, and if he actually proclaimed himself King, I don't think there is any doubt that the commoners would rally behind the rebelling nobles. Some would rebel even on their own, although there is a difference between words and acts, one that would difficult to cross in this particular case. Which is why the nobles would be so important.

[Guest PiotrekS]

How did it look with Gaebril? Hasn't he proclaimed himself king after Morgase's disappearance? I don't recall any rebellion then.

 

I guess the point is that there would be a rebellion, only it might be controversial how big and how much trouble would Rand have with supressing it. It all came from the opinion held by some that Elayne was unjustified in her indignation over Rand's words about "giving her the throne". I haven't changed my opinion about it - the probability that Andor would be better off without Rand is imho infinitesimal. Despite all our discussions, it remains fact that Elayne and Deylin have done nothing to save Andor from the Forsaken. If I remember correctly, she has never tkanked him for it.

 

What would be the result of the rebellion, we'll never know.

[MasterAblar]

How did it look with Gaebril? Hasn't he proclaimed himself king after Morgase's disappearance? I don't recall any rebellion then.

 

I guess the point is that there would be a rebellion, only it might be controversial how big and how much trouble would Rand have with supressing it. It all came from the opinion held by some that Elayne was unjustified in her indignation over Rand's words about "giving her the throne". I haven't changed my opinion about it - the probability that Andor would be better off without Rand is imho infinitesimal. Despite all our discussions, it remains fact that Elayne and Deylin have done nothing to save Andor from the Forsaken. If I remember correctly, she has never tkanked him for it.

 

What would be the result of the rebellion, we'll never know.

 

She's never thanked him personally no, though to be fair she hasn't exactly seen him much.

 

However, she did say in ToM, when she met with Perrin, that Andor owed Rand a debt (which is her excuse for granting him the TR). So she does seem to recognise what Rand did for Andor.

 

As for Rahvin, I think people were still blaiming Morgase for everything, and with the nobles not doing anything, perhaps the commoners felt no reason to rebel. Which is why I think that the nobles are so important in any hypothetical rebellion against Rand.

[XXX]

 

Ituralde won one big battle against "channelers" which also decimated his own forces and he was dead in the water till Rand came. Moreover he could see damane and prepare for them..Ash'aman can remove their coat and melt into the population.

 

You keep making points that have zero to do with reality in this series. Ituralde won a series of guerilla battles against the Seanchan and Damane. His back was to the wall finally after a long campaign against superior forces. It is exactly the type of fight that Rand could not afford to have leading up to TG.

 

As for Ashaman are you proposing that Rand wages a guerilla war against what would be his own people? Secret Ashaman soldiers acting as police? This is not Seander, nothing would turn the country against him quicker.

 

I said one big battle..he won a no of skirmishes and could keep it up for what 2 months before he was cornered. And he is a Great Captain who could identify the Damane and prepare accordingly. And the Damane could not travel. The hypothetical rebels in Andor would not even be bale to identify an Asha'man once he melts into the population.

 

And I said an assassination squad of 10 AM could travel from place to place and kill all the rebel leaders in a ridiculously easy fashion. And that is how every rebellion in every country ever conquered has been squashed in our world atleast. You do not need to kill the entire population to subjugate a country as Mr Ares seems to suggest.

[Suttree]

How did it look with Gaebril? Hasn't he proclaimed himself king after Morgase's disappearance? I don't recall any rebellion then.

 

Lord Gaebril was a supposed Andoran who put forth a claim for the throne. He had been using compulsion on nobles and solidifying his power for some time. It is a totally different situation than an outsider with a force of Aiel trying to take the throne.

 

Look no one at anytime has said Andor would be better of without Rand. He liberated the country and did an admirable job policing with his forces until he disappeared. At that point Dyelin stepped in as regent and Elayne then shows up later to put forth her own claim. From there we have Bashere explain why she can't bee seen using Rand's forces, she holds the city with a force she built up from scratch and goes about winning the needed votes to win the Lion Throne on her own. The votes are what matter, so although Andor owes him a huge debt for his service(naming him High Lord and giving him a seat in the 2Rs while exempting them from taxes is a good start at thanks), Rand did not hand her the throne by any definition. The whole perception hurt her based on concepts unique to Andoran culture such as.

PoD, Ch. 28

 

"You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

 

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against? I have heard your name often on my way here.”

 

“Since you claim the throne by your own right, with.”

 

She would not have had the support of any nobles had she answered otherwise.

 

I disagree...the forsaken have centuries of experience in TAR.

 

Does anyone know how much time realistically the forsaken have? I mean iirc they were in a normal lifespan when they were sealed and then only have the current time since release correct?

 

And I said an assassination squad of 10 AM could travel from place to place and kill all the rebel leaders in a ridiculously easy fashion. And that is how every rebellion in every country ever conquered has been squashed in our world atleast.

 

You really need to read up on your history if you believe the above statement to be true.

[Eht Slat Meit]

No. I'm pointing out the Sea Folk can be gained either way.

 

Except that they cannot, and the reason they cannot is because you're failing to make a critical distinction - Sea Folk and Windfinders. The Windfinders have been reduced to animals with no other purpose than to be trained. The rest of the Sea Folk continue on their merry way after swearing the oaths, minus a Windfinder, and minus their amazing reputation. So - either you have the Sea Folk and their Windfinders as a single cohesive force, or you Windfinders as chained damane relegated to whatever they are deemed most suitable for. Not necessarily even what they used to do, if you'll recall Egwene.

 

Massive benefit is putting them back together the way they were. Seanchan broke it, like they do all their channeling toys. Because that's what animals are for. To serve the Seanchan see fit, not as what is necessarily best for Mat or anyone else.

 

Domani were the ones I was thinking of, but no matter, it's not important. The Sea Folk gained a small bit of land. They will still need to pay customs duties to trade with Andor. Where's the downside to Andor?

 

This is part of the point I was making. They don't have to pay customs duties. Elayne got suckered; there is a very specific reason that Zaida phrased it the way she did and a reason why Zaida led her to believe that she was settling for a minor concession:

 

Zaida raised her silver cup to her mouth, and when she low­ered it, she wore the tiniest smile. Yet Elayne thought it was a smile of relief rather than triumph. “Goods moving into Andor, but not goods coming from the river onto our land. ~ CoT

 

Translated: The Sovereignty is not part of Andor, and therefore they only have to do what every normal nation would do - set up shop on their own land, make the Andorans come to them, and the Andorans get hit with the import duties. The Sea Folk end up paying not a single red cent to Andor. Because it is their sovereign territory. And on that note, since it's their own territory, if they can hit the Andorans with an import tax of their own. Who loses? Andoran merchants. Why? Because that Sovereignty can get anything they'll ever need by river or by gateway.

 

What's Andor get? A temporary supply line to Caemlyn so that Elayne can become queen. This bargain may be in perpetuity for the Sovereignty. Understand that they are not even required to sell to Andor. If Andor gets out of line, Andor is out of luck.

 

If you think I'm running you a line, re-read the text.

 

 

Elayne is inexperienced. All things considered, her bargain was not bad. An experienced negotiator should fare much better. If they were so tough to negotiate with that none but ta'veren could get a good deal, why would anyone bother?

 

Question: If an experienced negotiator could have done better, if Elayne's training for her future as queen was not enough to make her an experienced negotiator... why was she the one doing the bargaining? You seem to be giving her the same raw deal you insist I'm giving her; what I'm saying here is that she really is that ready and experienced, and this was the best deal she could come up with, because the Sea Folk really are that much better.

 

As for why bargain? They bother for the same old reasons of supply and demand. The Sea Folk have something they want, and can sell it to anyone they want. They can bargain with the Sea Folk or they can have nothing. That simple.

 

 

The same way any other commoner would - by petitioning someone in power. Kings and nobles listen to petitions from commoners. Yes, it would take time (although her being an Illuminator could help speed things along - having access to fireworks might not be of military benefit, but in thelong term it could always be good to be the only monarch with an Illuminator).

 

Under the scenario you suggest, assuming she could get that access as easily as you claim (and ignore most of my arguments in doing so, like good faith), there are still a lot of issues. Like, why should they risk fighting the Seanchan for her? You treat these military minds, these people in power, as if they were paladin-like simpletons, ready to hand out a little coin for a lot of power and risk their kingdoms against the insanely powerful armies of the Seanchan. The same Seanchan we just discussed the power of. So tell me, why again is that person going to take that risk... and more importantly why would they take the risk of allowing her to live once they've gotten what they want from her?

 

This is world-shaking power, man. We've agreed that any general can recognize it, queens, kings and nobles too. So why would they risk, even for a second, the chance that this woman is going to take her information to the enemy? Jagad, Bashere, they'll take the chance of handing it over to the Shadow or their enemies among the Seanchan? They got where they are by making hard decisions...

 

No fighting against the Seanchan? No fireworks, no cannons. Maybe she'll go elsewhere.

 

... and when some little lady with the power to break the world at her fingertips threatens to take that information somewhere else, she ends up dead in a ditch. Or rot in a prison, hoping for a ta'veren to break her out.

 

Not much. He sped things along a little. Such access is very likely. All she needs to do is wait for an audience with someone in power, and then make use of it.

 

And that's what it all comes down to. She has to rely on trust and good faith in a section of the population known for neither. Which noble do you take it to? Which queen/king? Which great captain? She's a commoner, not a player of the great game. Walk the path of daggers and die.

 

Why would she be giving you the knowledge? She can make it herself. If she needs apprentices to help her, they don't have to have the whole process - compartmentalise the information, and keep some knowledge for yourself, and they won't be able to piece it together.

 

And Aludra gained these elite powers of subterfuge where? She's a member of the Illuminators... they keep outsiders OUTSIDE for a reason. Are the people dealing with her supposed to be so stupid they can't begin to guess how the things they're acquiring for her work?

 

This doesn't actually relate to the initial point you were responding to.

 

That's right, your claim that I'm singling Elayne out had nothing to do with our argument. If that's a problem for you, then perhaps you shouldn't have brought a completely irrelevant issue up.

 

Yes, I can. All you can do is ask me not to.

 

Okay, let me clarify. You can do it, and not be taken seriously at all, because speaking to my motivations would make you a liar. You don't know what's going on in my head, you're not a psychic, and you have nothing more than your perception of what I'm written to make such a claim on...

 

Now, are you actually going to come up with an argument, or just keep making baseless claims with little to nothing by way of evidence or reasoning to support them?

 

... in other words, practice what you preach. You're clearly not doing that here. If you want to make baseless claims about my motivations, then you have worthwhile to contribute except a potential flamewar. You're making things personal where they don't need to be.

[Suttree]

This is part of the point I was making. They don't have to pay customs duties. Elayne got suckered; there is a very specific reason that Zaida phrased it the way she did and a reason why Zaida led her to believe that she was settling for a minor concession:

 

Zaida raised her silver cup to her mouth, and when she low­ered it, she wore the tiniest smile. Yet Elayne thought it was a smile of relief rather than triumph. “Goods moving into Andor, but not goods coming from the river onto our land. ~ CoT

 

Translated: The Sovereignty is not part of Andor, and therefore they only have to do what every normal nation would do - set up shop on their own land, make the Andorans come to them, and the Andorans get hit with the import duties. The Sea Folk end up paying not a single red cent to Andor. Because it is their sovereign territory. And on that note, since it's their own territory, if they can hit the Andorans with an import tax of their own. Who loses? Andoran merchants. Why? Because that Sovereignty can get anything they'll ever need by river or by gateway.

 

What's Andor get? A temporary supply line to Caemlyn so that Elayne can become queen. This bargain may be in perpetuity for the Sovereignty. Understand that they are not even required to sell to Andor. If Andor gets out of line, Andor is out of luck.

 

If you think I'm running you a line, re-read the text.

 

CoT

Best not to let the woman think that was her way of rejecting the offer out of hand. “Of course, the normal cus­toms duties would apply to any goods moving off this land into Andor.”

Zaida raised her silver cup to her mouth, and when she low­ered it, she wore the tiniest smile. Yet Elayne thought it was a smile of relief rather than triumph. “Goods moving into Andor, but not goods coming from the river onto our land. I might leave three Windfinders. For half a year, say. And they must not be used in fighting. I will not have my people die for you, and I will not have other Andorans angry at us because Sea Folk have killed some of them.”

 

I believe you are misinterpreting the implications of that bargain, the situation will enrich Andor and the Sea Folk will pay custom duties. Are you forgetting the later scene where Elayne thinks how they never specified the the land has to be on a river. She has thought it through and according to her inner thoughts has worked out a way that Andor will profit.

 

As for how she did we have comments stating how well Elayne came out on the bargain.

 

“Under the Light, it is agreed,” she was able to say at last, kiss­ing the fingertips of her right hand and leaning forward to press them to Zaida’s lips. Aviendha grinned, obviously impressed. Bir­gitte kept a smooth face, but the bond said she found it hard to believe Elayne had come out so well.