Why You Hatin' on Me? (asks Egwene, Nynaeve, Faile, etc)

[tiolis]

Favorite Character is Mat

 

For one scene which perfectly depicts why he is the best character in the series.

 

Throwing pinecones at Perrin to get his attention to show him that he has caught a badger in a sack in ToM.

 

While every character from the beginning has had to adapt to who they needed to become, they have either put aside or repressed who they were at the beginning. What I think we need to understand is that this series has been a feature of the lives of readers for such a long time that the regression to that simplicity that there still was in the EotW and the other first novels, is not only heart warming and fun but what makes this series resonate so powerfully. This series has been an experience more than anything and Mat's character is really the only one who can elicit these truly light hearted moments which we not only enjoy but make us remember why we began these books and why we are still interested enough to post on a forum.

[MasterAblar]

I see no reason to believe that. After all, against one of the Chosen, Elayne could call on the White Tower. If nothing else, she could call on Egwene and Nynaeve - Rand went into battle alone.

 

Do Elayne, Egwene, and Nyneave (or the Aes Sedai in general) even know how to fight a male channeller? Apart from shielding him I mean, like how Rand and Lanfear were fighting. Because if they don't I have hard time seeing them succeeding in a fight against Rahvin. He would probably have wards set up, and know they were in Caemlyn immediately. And Rahvin wouldn't be stupid enough to take on a great number of Aes Sedai. He would simply take them out one by one. After all they have no way of detecting him, and since they can't see weaves of saidin, they would have no way of defending themselves.

[XXX]

I see no reason to believe that. After all, against one of the Chosen, Elayne could call on the White Tower. If nothing else, she could call on Egwene and Nynaeve - Rand went into battle alone.

 

Do Elayne, Egwene, and Nyneave (or the Aes Sedai in general) even know how to fight a male channeller? Apart from shielding him I mean, like how Rand and Lanfear were fighting. Because if they don't I have hard time seeing them succeeding in a fight against Rahvin. He would probably have wards set up, and know they were in Caemlyn immediately. And Rahvin wouldn't be stupid enough to take on a great number of Aes Sedai. He would simply take them out one by one. After all they have no way of detecting him, and since they can't see weaves of saidin, they would have no way of defending themselves.

 

 

Elayne,Egwene and Ny did not even know that a forsaken was in control at Andor...and as they cannot know when he channels, any of them coming face to face with him would be compelled or killed before they even knew what they were facing.

[David Selig]

I see no reason to believe that. After all, against one of the Chosen, Elayne could call on the White Tower. If nothing else, she could call on Egwene and Nynaeve - Rand went into battle alone.

 

Do Elayne, Egwene, and Nyneave (or the Aes Sedai in general) even know how to fight a male channeller? Apart from shielding him I mean, like how Rand and Lanfear were fighting. Because if they don't I have hard time seeing them succeeding in a fight against Rahvin. He would probably have wards set up, and know they were in Caemlyn immediately. And Rahvin wouldn't be stupid enough to take on a great number of Aes Sedai. He would simply take them out one by one. After all they have no way of detecting him, and since they can't see weaves of saidin, they would have no way of defending themselves.

 

 

Elayne,Egwene and Ny did not even know that a forsaken was in control at Andor...and as they cannot know when he channels, any of them coming face to face with him would be compelled or killed before they even knew what they were facing.

Moggy told Nynaeve about Rahvin.

 

The Supergirls plus Aviedha and with the collared Moggy could've killed Rahvin IMO.

[MasterAblar]

I see no reason to believe that. After all, against one of the Chosen, Elayne could call on the White Tower. If nothing else, she could call on Egwene and Nynaeve - Rand went into battle alone.

 

Do Elayne, Egwene, and Nyneave (or the Aes Sedai in general) even know how to fight a male channeller? Apart from shielding him I mean, like how Rand and Lanfear were fighting. Because if they don't I have hard time seeing them succeeding in a fight against Rahvin. He would probably have wards set up, and know they were in Caemlyn immediately. And Rahvin wouldn't be stupid enough to take on a great number of Aes Sedai. He would simply take them out one by one. After all they have no way of detecting him, and since they can't see weaves of saidin, they would have no way of defending themselves.

 

 

Elayne,Egwene and Ny did not even know that a forsaken was in control at Andor...and as they cannot know when he channels, any of them coming face to face with him would be compelled or killed before they even knew what they were facing.

Moggy told Nynaeve about Rahvin.

 

The Supergirls plus Aviedha and with the collared Moggy could've killed Rahvin IMO.

 

How? They don't know how to defend against him, whereas he'll just slice any weaves they send at him. Not to mention he'll probably have wards set up.

[Suttree]

I see no reason to believe that. After all, against one of the Chosen, Elayne could call on the White Tower. If nothing else, she could call on Egwene and Nynaeve - Rand went into battle alone.

 

Do Elayne, Egwene, and Nyneave (or the Aes Sedai in general) even know how to fight a male channeller? Apart from shielding him I mean, like how Rand and Lanfear were fighting. Because if they don't I have hard time seeing them succeeding in a fight against Rahvin. He would probably have wards set up, and know they were in Caemlyn immediately. And Rahvin wouldn't be stupid enough to take on a great number of Aes Sedai. He would simply take them out one by one. After all they have no way of detecting him, and since they can't see weaves of saidin, they would have no way of defending themselves.

 

 

Elayne,Egwene and Ny did not even know that a forsaken was in control at Andor...and as they cannot know when he channels, any of them coming face to face with him would be compelled or killed before they even knew what they were facing.

Moggy told Nynaeve about Rahvin.

 

The Supergirls plus Aviedha and with the collared Moggy could've killed Rahvin IMO.

 

How? They don't know how to defend against him, whereas he'll just slice any weaves they send at him. Not to mention he'll probably have wards set up.

 

Do people forget that without Nyn Rand would not have won? She played a huge role in defeating him. In terms of the Super Girls for one all it takes is a distraction ala Be'lal and a group effort. Not to mention with Moggy collared they would have considerable insight into how to go about it. Pretty short sighted imo to say powerful female channelers are incapable of defeating a male forsaken.

 

Edit: Corrected name

[David Selig]

I see no reason to believe that. After all, against one of the Chosen, Elayne could call on the White Tower. If nothing else, she could call on Egwene and Nynaeve - Rand went into battle alone.

 

Do Elayne, Egwene, and Nyneave (or the Aes Sedai in general) even know how to fight a male channeller? Apart from shielding him I mean, like how Rand and Lanfear were fighting. Because if they don't I have hard time seeing them succeeding in a fight against Rahvin. He would probably have wards set up, and know they were in Caemlyn immediately. And Rahvin wouldn't be stupid enough to take on a great number of Aes Sedai. He would simply take them out one by one. After all they have no way of detecting him, and since they can't see weaves of saidin, they would have no way of defending themselves.

 

 

Elayne,Egwene and Ny did not even know that a forsaken was in control at Andor...and as they cannot know when he channels, any of them coming face to face with him would be compelled or killed before they even knew what they were facing.

Moggy told Nynaeve about Rahvin.

 

The Supergirls plus Aviedha and with the collared Moggy could've killed Rahvin IMO.

 

How? They don't know how to defend against him, whereas he'll just slice any weaves they send at him. Not to mention he'll probably have wards set up.

The same way the modern channellers kicked the butts of the Forsaken at the cleansing - too much difference in the power levels between a Forsaken and several powerful channellers linked together.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I see no reason to believe that. After all, against one of the Chosen, Elayne could call on the White Tower. If nothing else, she could call on Egwene and Nynaeve - Rand went into battle alone.

 

Do Elayne, Egwene, and Nyneave (or the Aes Sedai in general) even know how to fight a male channeller? Apart from shielding him I mean, like how Rand and Lanfear were fighting. Because if they don't I have hard time seeing them succeeding in a fight against Rahvin. He would probably have wards set up, and know they were in Caemlyn immediately. And Rahvin wouldn't be stupid enough to take on a great number of Aes Sedai. He would simply take them out one by one. After all they have no way of detecting him, and since they can't see weaves of saidin, they would have no way of defending themselves.

 

 

Elayne,Egwene and Ny did not even know that a forsaken was in control at Andor...and as they cannot know when he channels, any of them coming face to face with him would be compelled or killed before they even knew what they were facing.

Moggy told Nynaeve about Rahvin.

 

The Supergirls plus Aviedha and with the collared Moggy could've killed Rahvin IMO.

 

How? They don't know how to defend against him, whereas he'll just slice any weaves they send at him. Not to mention he'll probably have wards set up.

 

Do people forget that without Avi Rand would not have won? She played a huge role in defeating him. In terms of the Super Girls for one all it takes is a distraction ala Be'lal and a group effort. Not to mention with Moggy collared they would have considerable insight into how to go about it. Pretty short sighted imo to say powerful female channelers are incapable of defeating a male forsaken.

 

I think you meant Nynaeve. Avi was dead until Rand baliefired Rahvin. I agree Nyn played huge role.

 

Remember that Rand had his elite troops with him - they engaded Rahvin's people and trollocs and myrdraal. Also if you read the description of the fight with Rahvin, you'll Rand was displaying battle skills way surpassing everything Nyn, Elayne or Egwene have shown so far, including TGS and ToM. And even that would avail him nothing had they not stumbled upon Nynaeve with leashed Moggy.

[Suttree]

I think you meant Nynaeve. Avi was dead until Rand baliefired Rahvin. I agree Nyn played huge role.

 

Correct, fast typing. My bad...

[Guest PiotrekS]

 

I think it was much more likely Rand would have hardly any problems with most of Andorans had he decided to alter Andor's traditions and take the throne or give it to somebody, than that Elayne or Morgase would be able to free Andor from Rahvin's grip. Rand needed a lot of luck to do it, while Morgase and Elayne simply did not have adequate resources, both on channeling and military fronts.

 

I see no reason to believe that. After all, against one of the Chosen, Elayne could call on the White Tower. If nothing else, she could call on Egwene and Nynaeve - Rand went into battle alone.

 

I think it is beyond doubt that a direct White Tower military intervention in Andor would spark the reaction much worse than anything Rand could have triggered by his alleged disrespect for Andor's independence. Not only in Andor, where the mood is very anti-Aes Sedai, but also in all the other countries which would now see a direct proof of the fears so far only whispered in the corners - that Aes Sedai want to control the world. That could even prompt the creation of international coalition against the White Tower.

 

What is more, when would Elayne be able to call on the White Tower? Probably only as late as in ToM. Or do you think Elaida would intervene in Andor while Alviarin and Mesaana would idly stand by?

 

Furthermore, Rand did not go alone. He had Aiel and Saldeans. He also had Avi with him - she was killed by Rahvin's lightning just at the beggining of the fight along with Mat. Rand was stronger in the Power, had more battle skills than any of the Supergirls, had his ta'veren luck - and almost lost. I don't see even all Supergirls together standing much of the chance.

Even assuming Deylin and some other nobles with backbones would rebel against Rand, he would have no problems with crushing them since they don't have any large regular army units and even if they had, they would be no match for Rand's elite forces. Not to mention the channeling. Arymilla and her sort would lick Rand's boots and as we have seen, commoners don't care which noble actually sits on the throne as much as said nobles like to think. Morgase wasn't unequivocally loved by Andorans even in EotW.

But the commoners have expressed the view that they don't want Rand. Also, Rand would have to draw on forces that would be better spent elsewhere, a guerilla campaign would be a large drain on his resources, some of the Asha'man are Andorans (and so wouldn't necessarily agree to the slaughter of their countrymen - Rand hasn't really done much to earn their loyalty). I doubt Bashere would follow him unequivocally either. So Rand has to expend his Aiel soldiers on such a pointless endeavour as crushing the forces of the Light? Yes, it would be a problem for him, but not an insurmountable one.

 

The fighting would be pointless and any victory pyrrhic - this is not a point of contention between us.

Some small points:

 

1. I don't think any potential Andoran rebels have the skills, the soldiers and the right battleground to wage a guerilla compaign. Ituralde was a great captain with seasoned soldiers, the terrain was different, the enemy was different. Aiel and Asha'man has huge mobility and firepower advantage, it is counterproductive to use guerilla tactics against enemy who is more mobile and better commanded and more efficient in such type of war than your own forces.

 

2.Asha'man knew what kind of treatment could they expect from their own countrymen had they not gone to the Black Tower (see Owyn's example). I doubt they would place any loyalty to the country they effectively had to flee over that to the one person who offered them some kind of safety and a goal in life beyond going mad and dying.

 

3. I just don't see an unified Andoran front against Rand. Deylin and few other nobles, with general sympathy of the commoners would not mean the whole country going against Rand(I concede the quotes show anti-Rand mood, but the commoners rather talk than rebel. They have their jobs and families to tend to - and they don't love Trakands very much right now).

[MasterAblar]

I see no reason to believe that. After all, against one of the Chosen, Elayne could call on the White Tower. If nothing else, she could call on Egwene and Nynaeve - Rand went into battle alone.

 

Do Elayne, Egwene, and Nyneave (or the Aes Sedai in general) even know how to fight a male channeller? Apart from shielding him I mean, like how Rand and Lanfear were fighting. Because if they don't I have hard time seeing them succeeding in a fight against Rahvin. He would probably have wards set up, and know they were in Caemlyn immediately. And Rahvin wouldn't be stupid enough to take on a great number of Aes Sedai. He would simply take them out one by one. After all they have no way of detecting him, and since they can't see weaves of saidin, they would have no way of defending themselves.

 

 

Elayne,Egwene and Ny did not even know that a forsaken was in control at Andor...and as they cannot know when he channels, any of them coming face to face with him would be compelled or killed before they even knew what they were facing.

Moggy told Nynaeve about Rahvin.

 

The Supergirls plus Aviedha and with the collared Moggy could've killed Rahvin IMO.

 

How? They don't know how to defend against him, whereas he'll just slice any weaves they send at him. Not to mention he'll probably have wards set up.

 

Do people forget that without Nyn Rand would not have won? She played a huge role in defeating him. In terms of the Super Girls for one all it takes is a distraction ala Be'lal and a group effort. Not to mention with Moggy collared they would have considerable insight into how to go about it. Pretty short sighted imo to say powerful female channelers are incapable of defeating a male forsaken.

 

Edit: Corrected name

 

Nyneave ambushed him just like Moiraine did with Bel'al. It was not through skill that she managed to injure him.

 

The only way they could defeat Rahvin is by taking him by surprise. I just don't believe they can do that. Bel'al was toying with Rand which is why Moiraine was able to ambush him. And Rahvin was fully focused on Rand. None of he Super Girls would survive a second against Rahvin for the simple reason that they do not know how to defend against his weaves. There wouldn't be time enough to ambush him.

 

Also relying on Moghedien in this would be a terrible idea. All it takes is a tiny bit of misinformation from her, and everything could go wrong.

 

I see no reason to believe that. After all, against one of the Chosen, Elayne could call on the White Tower. If nothing else, she could call on Egwene and Nynaeve - Rand went into battle alone.

 

Do Elayne, Egwene, and Nyneave (or the Aes Sedai in general) even know how to fight a male channeller? Apart from shielding him I mean, like how Rand and Lanfear were fighting. Because if they don't I have hard time seeing them succeeding in a fight against Rahvin. He would probably have wards set up, and know they were in Caemlyn immediately. And Rahvin wouldn't be stupid enough to take on a great number of Aes Sedai. He would simply take them out one by one. After all they have no way of detecting him, and since they can't see weaves of saidin, they would have no way of defending themselves.

 

 

Elayne,Egwene and Ny did not even know that a forsaken was in control at Andor...and as they cannot know when he channels, any of them coming face to face with him would be compelled or killed before they even knew what they were facing.

Moggy told Nynaeve about Rahvin.

 

The Supergirls plus Aviedha and with the collared Moggy could've killed Rahvin IMO.

 

How? They don't know how to defend against him, whereas he'll just slice any weaves they send at him. Not to mention he'll probably have wards set up.

The same way the modern channellers kicked the butts of the Forsaken at the cleansing - too much difference in the power levels between a Forsaken and several powerful channellers linked together.

 

All those groups had men and women in them.

[MasterAblar]

 

I think it was much more likely Rand would have hardly any problems with most of Andorans had he decided to alter Andor's traditions and take the throne or give it to somebody, than that Elayne or Morgase would be able to free Andor from Rahvin's grip. Rand needed a lot of luck to do it, while Morgase and Elayne simply did not have adequate resources, both on channeling and military fronts.

 

I see no reason to believe that. After all, against one of the Chosen, Elayne could call on the White Tower. If nothing else, she could call on Egwene and Nynaeve - Rand went into battle alone.

 

I think it is beyond doubt that a direct White Tower military intervention in Andor would spark the reaction much worse than anything Rand could have triggered by his alleged disrespect for Andor's independence. Not only in Andor, where the mood is very anti-Aes Sedai, but also in all the other countries which would now see a direct proof of the fears so far only whispered in the corners - that Aes Sedai want to control the world. That could even prompt the creation of international coalition against the White Tower.

 

What is more, when would Elayne be able to call on the White Tower? Probably only as late as in ToM. Or do you think Elaida would intervene in Andor while Alviarin and Mesaana would idly stand by?

 

Furthermore, Rand did not go alone. He had Aiel and Saldeans. He also had Avi with him - she was killed by Rahvin's lightning just at the beggining of the fight along with Mat. Rand was stronger in the Power, had more battle skills than any of the Supergirls, had his ta'veren luck - and almost lost. I don't see even all Supergirls together standing much of the chance.

Even assuming Deylin and some other nobles with backbones would rebel against Rand, he would have no problems with crushing them since they don't have any large regular army units and even if they had, they would be no match for Rand's elite forces. Not to mention the channeling. Arymilla and her sort would lick Rand's boots and as we have seen, commoners don't care which noble actually sits on the throne as much as said nobles like to think. Morgase wasn't unequivocally loved by Andorans even in EotW.

But the commoners have expressed the view that they don't want Rand. Also, Rand would have to draw on forces that would be better spent elsewhere, a guerilla campaign would be a large drain on his resources, some of the Asha'man are Andorans (and so wouldn't necessarily agree to the slaughter of their countrymen - Rand hasn't really done much to earn their loyalty). I doubt Bashere would follow him unequivocally either. So Rand has to expend his Aiel soldiers on such a pointless endeavour as crushing the forces of the Light? Yes, it would be a problem for him, but not an insurmountable one.

 

The fighting would be pointless and any victory pyrrhic - this is not a point of contention between us.

Some small points:

 

1. I don't think any potential Andoran rebels have the skills, the soldiers and the right battleground to wage a guerilla compaign. Ituralde was a great captain with seasoned soldiers, the terrain was different, the enemy was different. Aiel and Asha'man has huge mobility and firepower advantage, it is counterproductive to use guerilla tactics against enemy who is more mobile and better commanded and more efficient in such type of war than your own forces.

 

2.Asha'man knew what kind of treatment could they expect from their own countrymen had they not gone to the Black Tower (see Owyn's example). I doubt they would place any loyalty to the country they effectively had to flee over that to the one person who offered them some kind of safety and a goal in life beyond going mad and dying.

 

3. I just don't see an unified Andoran front against Rand. Deylin and few other nobles, with general sympathy of the commoners would not mean the whole country going against Rand(I concede the quotes show anti-Rand mood, but the commoners rather talk than rebel. They have their jobs and families to tend to - and they don't love Trakands very much right now).

 

I agree. A unified Andor would certainly be a headache for Rand. But it's doubtful that all the nobles in Andor would be willing to rebel against Rand. And even if they did, Rand wouldn't allow them the time to organise.

 

As for the Ashaman, it's made clear to them when they join the BT that the only loyalty they have from there on is to the BT.

[Suttree]

Not only in Andor, where the mood is very anti-Aes Sedai,

 

Where is this mentioned? If anything they have a history of being close allies with the WT? AS are held with great respect in that country except for maybe far outlying areas such as the 2Rs.

 

I agree. A unified Andor would certainly be a headache for Rand. But it's doubtful that all the nobles in Andor would be willing to rebel against Rand.

 

Not at all considering Dyelin had all the support needed in order to take the throne. We see very clearly the nobles were ready to support her in the resistance speech to Rand. Not to mention how patriotic Andorans are. RJ painted a clear picture of how both the nobles and commoners perceived the DR overstaying his welcome. Not sure why that is even open for debate. The proof is in the text.

[MasterAblar]

Not only in Andor, where the mood is very anti-Aes Sedai,

 

Where is this mentioned? If anything they have a history of being close allies with the WT? AS are held with great respect in that country except for maybe far outlying areas such as the 2Rs.

 

I agree. A unified Andor would certainly be a headache for Rand. But it's doubtful that all the nobles in Andor would be willing to rebel against Rand.

 

Not at all considering Dyelin had all the support needed in order to take the throne. We see very clearly the nobles were ready to support her in the resistance speech to Rand. Not to mention how patriotic Andorans are. RJ painted a clear picture of how both the nobles and commoners perceived the DR overstaying his welcome. Not sure why that is even open for debate. The proof is in the text.

 

Dyelin and the 5 other nobles with her would certainly rebel yes, as well as all the minor nobles sworn to them, but would Arymilla? Karind and Lir? Naean and Jarid? Nasin? Would Danine?

 

All of those (apart from Danine) seem more interested in gaining power than anything else. They never made any objections to the DR being in Andor.

 

But again, if they did rebel, Rand would hardly sit back and let them organise themselves. With travelling, he could end the rebellion in days.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Not only in Andor, where the mood is very anti-Aes Sedai,

 

Where is this mentioned? If anything they have a history of being close allies with the WT? AS are held with great respect in that country except for maybe far outlying areas such as the 2Rs.

 

First in EotW, where the whitecloaks influence in rising due to the anti-Aes Sedai mood and Morgase is criticized mainly because of her ties with the White Tower (I remember distinctly that in Caemlyn streets red ribbons - against Morgase and Aes Sedai - vastly outnumbered the white).

 

The situation only worsened in later books, when the gossip emerged that WT is holding Elayne and Morgase got under Rahvin's influence.

I agree. A unified Andor would certainly be a headache for Rand. But it's doubtful that all the nobles in Andor would be willing to rebel against Rand.

 

Not at all considering Dyelin had all the support needed in order to take the throne. We see very clearly the nobles were ready to support her in the resistance speech to Rand. Not to mention how patriotic Andorans are. RJ painted a clear picture of how both the nobles and commoners perceived the DR overstaying his welcome. Not sure why that is even open for debate. The proof is in the text.

 

Suttree, what about Arymilla and her party? She was besieging Elayne and Deylin in Caemlyn for a long, long time. It is very possible she would support the stronger party and certainly neither Deylin nor Elayne. After all, Rahvin was doing much worse things than Rand has ever said and there was no outright rebellion.

[MasterAblar]

Not only in Andor, where the mood is very anti-Aes Sedai,

 

Where is this mentioned? If anything they have a history of being close allies with the WT? AS are held with great respect in that country except for maybe far outlying areas such as the 2Rs.

 

First in EotW, where the whitecloaks influence in rising due to the anti-Aes Sedai mood and Morgase is criticized mainly because of her ties with the White Tower (I remember distinctly that in Caemlyn streets red ribbons - against Morgase and Aes Sedai - vastly outnumbered the white).

 

The situation only worsened in later books, when the gossip emerged that WT is holding Elayne and Morgase got under Rahvin's influence.

 

Actually it's the other way around. The "reds" were for the queen and the "whites" against her (or at least the Aes Sedai), and the whites vastly outnumbered the reds.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Not only in Andor, where the mood is very anti-Aes Sedai,

 

Where is this mentioned? If anything they have a history of being close allies with the WT? AS are held with great respect in that country except for maybe far outlying areas such as the 2Rs.

 

First in EotW, where the whitecloaks influence in rising due to the anti-Aes Sedai mood and Morgase is criticized mainly because of her ties with the White Tower (I remember distinctly that in Caemlyn streets red ribbons - against Morgase and Aes Sedai - vastly outnumbered the white).

 

The situation only worsened in later books, when the gossip emerged that WT is holding Elayne and Morgase got under Rahvin's influence.

 

Actually it's the other way around. The "reds" were for the queen and the "whites" against her (or at least the Aes Sedai), and the whites vastly outnumbered the reds.

 

Yeah, my mistake. Thanks for correcting me on this!

The point stands though.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I doubt it's only in Andor that being given a throne by an outsider is disliked by that nation's population. I'm sure Rand realized that. I don't remember him saying that he was giving Elayne the throne in front of other andoran nobles.

 

Andor seems to be one of those "special" cases, and not representative of Rand caring what the nobles and population think about his appointees. iirc, he very publicly stomped Colavaere's ambitions to the Sun Throne of her own nation flat in front of a bunch of assembled nobles/high lords and told everyone exactly what was what in a brutally efficient manner. That's not a sympathetic attitude. It's also not his "right" as anything other than the Dragon Reborn.

[trelkor]

i think the people of andor were more disgruntled than anti aes sedai, we have seen throughout the story that many andorans show aes sedai respect if not on par then very close to borderlanders

[MasterAblar]

I doubt it's only in Andor that being given a throne by an outsider is disliked by that nation's population. I'm sure Rand realized that. I don't remember him saying that he was giving Elayne the throne in front of other andoran nobles.

 

Andor seems to be one of those "special" cases, and not representative of Rand caring what the nobles and population think about his appointees. iirc, he very publicly stomped Colavaere's ambitions to the Sun Throne of her own nation flat in front of a bunch of assembled nobles/high lords and told everyone exactly what was what in a brutally efficient manner. That's not a sympathetic attitude. It's also not his "right" as anything other than the Dragon Reborn.

 

That's true. But then he had a far stronger hold on Cairhien than on Andor, and Cairhien was also considerably weakened and very much in debt to Rand. And I believe the nobles had sworn to follow Rand too.

[MasterAblar]

i think the people of andor were more disgruntled than anti aes sedai, we have seen throughout the story that many andorans show aes sedai respect if not on par then very close to borderlanders

 

I don't think they were really anti Aes Sedai, they just wanted them to stop meddling in Andor. Which is why an Aes Sedai army coming into Andor would definitely not be welcome.

[Suttree]

First in EotW, where the whitecloaks influence in rising due to the anti-Aes Sedai mood and Morgase is criticized mainly because of her ties with the White Tower (I remember distinctly that in Caemlyn streets red ribbons - against Morgase and Aes Sedai - vastly outnumbered the white).

 

Edit: read through again. Basel Gill talks about how the Whitecloaks have recently been drumming up the anti-AS sentiment in Caemlyn. It's not a statement on how they are viewed in general. Also it mentions how outlanders make up a good deal of numbers for the White.

[Guest PiotrekS]

First in EotW, where the whitecloaks influence in rising due to the anti-Aes Sedai mood and Morgase is criticized mainly because of her ties with the White Tower (I remember distinctly that in Caemlyn streets red ribbons - against Morgase and Aes Sedai - vastly outnumbered the white).

 

Edit: read through again. Basel Gill talks about how the Whitecloaks have recently been drumming up the anti-AS sentiment in Caemlyn. It's not a statement on how they are viewed in general. Also it mentions how outlanders make up a good deal of numbers for the White.

 

Ok, I'm afraid I'm not really able to get the quotes right now. Maybe when I go home for Christmas I'll find some because it seems to me there were some more then what you mention. But maybe I'm mistaken, I'm not very vehement about it.

 

I don't have the books in electronic form, so it would be quite a lot of work to find and retype the quotes here. I'll try to do it, because I most definitely wasn't trying to make things up.

 

Still, the Whitecloaks who were pretty unpopular themselves would hardly be able to stir up any anti-Ae Sedai sentiment if there had been no basis for it in the first place. Even if the sentiment was artificially generated by the Whitecloaks, does it matter? It existed and got a life of its own on the streets. Its origin is irrelevant from this perspective.

 

Second, who did the Aes Sedai send to Caemlyn and who was the queen's adviser? That's right, that should suffice by itself to change the popular perception of the White Tower from love to hatred

 

Third, even taking into account the number of outlanders in Caemlyn, we have to remember that it was a very big city, a capital. For the whites to outnumber the reds as vastly as they did, a fair number of people from Caemlyn should also be wearing white. What's more, simple common sense tells us that most of those outlanders were people from outside Caemlyn, but still from Andor. We wouldn't expect people from e.g. Tear to travel all the way to see the false Dragon. There is larger probability that more people come from nearer than from father away.Therefore, we have even a better sample of moods in Andor, because the number of people in Caemlyn is greater than usually and they come from different parts of the country, not only the capital.

[Suttree]

Third, even taking into account the number of outlanders in Caemlyn, we have to remember that it was a very big city, a capital. For the whites to outnumber the reds as vastly as they did, a fair number of people from Caemlyn should also be wearing white. What's more, simple common sense tells us that most of those outlanders were people from outside Caemlyn, but still from Andor. We wouldn't expect people from e.g. Tear to travel all the way to see the false Dragon. There is larger probability that more people come from nearer than from father away.Therefore, we have even a better sample of moods in Andor, because the number of people in Caemlyn is greater than usually and they come from different parts of the country, not only the capital.

 

While I get the point you are trying to make if things were really as you say there would be a huge uproar over Elayne becoming Queen. We see zero negative reaction to her, the kindswomen or any AS in the city of which there are a number of groups. This goes for how they are treated both in palace, in Caemlyn and how they are viewed by the other nobles. Not once is there a negative comment based on the AS involved with the succession. If it was an issue in the slightest that would be the very first thing the other claimants would bring up to sabotage Elayne's chances. As for the mood of Andor when Elayne was doing her journey polling the countryside we see zero sign of anti-AS sentiment. Instead as I quoted earlier they blame the DR for everything going wrong.

 

The fact that this was mentioned in EotW seems to be a result of as Basel Gill says the Children combined with an early bookism.

[MasterAblar]

Third, even taking into account the number of outlanders in Caemlyn, we have to remember that it was a very big city, a capital. For the whites to outnumber the reds as vastly as they did, a fair number of people from Caemlyn should also be wearing white. What's more, simple common sense tells us that most of those outlanders were people from outside Caemlyn, but still from Andor. We wouldn't expect people from e.g. Tear to travel all the way to see the false Dragon. There is larger probability that more people come from nearer than from father away.Therefore, we have even a better sample of moods in Andor, because the number of people in Caemlyn is greater than usually and they come from different parts of the country, not only the capital.

 

While I get the point you are trying to make if things were really as you say there would be a huge uproar over Elayne becoming Queen. We see zero negative reaction to her, the kindswomen or any AS in the city of which there are a number of groups. This goes for how they are treated both in palace, in Caemlyn and how they are viewed by the other nobles. Not once is there a negative comment based on the AS involved with the succession. If it was an issue in the slightest that would be the very first thing the other claimants would bring up to sabotage Elayne's chances. As for the mood of Andor when Elayne was doing her journey polling the countryside we see zero sign of anti-AS sentiment. Instead as I quoted earlier they blame the DR for everything going wrong.

 

The fact that this was mentioned in EotW seems to be a result of as Basel Gill says the Children combined with an early bookism.

 

Well, people are fickle. With the Dragon Reborn around, he is now the one getting blamed for everything, instead of the Aes Sedai. He's the bigger concern now.