Mat = Odin?

[Joshua Hendrickson]

I just finished rereading chapter 26 of TSR, one of the most important events in all of WOT. I can't believe I never noticed this before, and I can't think of anyone else bringing it up, though probably some have. (It might go under the heading of The Big Unnoticed Thing, which I hear has something to do with Mat's spear, though I don't know what, and at any rate I have only read up as far as KOD so I don't know what is revealed or what happens past that point.)

 

My realization is this: Mat is a variation on the myth of Odin, from Norse mythology. First there's the hanging from Avendesora, which is reminiscent of Odin's experience (and which was probably originally drawn from northern cultural adaptations of early Christian crucifixion stories). Second, there's the fact that Mat is supposed to lose an eye at some point (which may have happened in TGS or TOM; I don't know); Odin sacrifices an eye to gain wisdom. Mat's broad-brimmed hat is similar to Odin's. But most of all, and what struck me so hard upon this rereading, is the inscription on Mat's spear. The writing is framed by two ravens, and references thought and memory--and Mat says of the (Aelfinn? or Eelfinn? I don't recall which ones the Fox folk are) "I'll give them 'thought and memory'". Odin is accompanied by two ravens, Hugin and Munin, which are Thought and Memory.

 

I can't believe I'm the first to notice this, so I'd love to hear others weigh in on the subject. Jordan's weaving of many strands of myth and history just gets more impressive to me the more I read WOT. It's that, more than anything else, I think, which makes WOT great, and which helps to outweigh the series' many flaws.

[Majsju]

It is very well known that Mat draws heavily on Oden. Just as Perrin draws on Thor and Rand on Tyr (though those two are not quite as obvious).

[UncleButcher1980]

Yes, the Mat/Odin parallels have been discussed before but well done for spotting it. For me it was one of those things that only came to my attention after I'd read the books and started visiting the forums.

[Terez]

Same for me, but that's only because I didn't know the first thing about Odin. But yes, it's been common knowledge in the net fandom since its inception (after TSR was published). That's part of why we were so sure he would lose an eye (that along with Min's viewing and Egwene's dream). If you're interested in this sort of thing, I'd suggest checking out 13th Depository. It's in the reference library in my sig (or you could just google it). The Odin parallels are among the most obvious aside from maybe the Arthurian names and such. There are hundreds that are less obvious.

[Entreri]

I wonder if the Darkhound=Fenrir, which is a monstrous wolf that eventually kills Odin during Ragnarok/TG. The wolf is eventually killed by one of Odins sons...

 

Slight change of the myth above = Perrin's/Thor's death or Rand's death (a massive pack is hunting someone).

 

Unlike the regular Darkhounds ("almost Myddrraal"), the T-1000 Darkhounds (the gholam variety) that attacked Rand in book 5 were unkillable, he had to use balefire on them. Rand took off their heads via Power wrought sword, and they reconstituted themseleves. Their bite is death, even a drop of their saliva can kill.

 

I could easily see one of them killing either Mat or Perrin or almost any channeler for that matter (few know balefire, few are powerful enough to use it and few would have the time needed).

[Terez]

1. We know Mat's not going to die.

 

2. The massive pack was hunting Fain. (Brandon indirectly confirmed this.)

[Entreri]

1. We know Mat's not going to die.

 

2. The massive pack was hunting Fain. (Brandon indirectly confirmed this.)

 

I never said the pack was after Mat or Perrin, just that if a T-1000 Darkhound was ever unleashed on either, they would be dead.

 

Min did not see the death of even Perrin, and possibly beside the Broken Wolf (probably Rand), there is no indication Perrin will die either.

 

 

I wonder what the impact of Avienhda's vision will have...

 

 

Really? Those poor Darkhounds, they will not know what hit them. I wonder if Fain can turn them into zombie Darkhounds.

[Terez]

Since they seemed rather unskilled at actually finding him, maybe we'll never know.

[Entreri]

Since they seemed rather unskilled at actually finding him, maybe we'll never know.

 

They are supposed to able to track down any prey, but Fain is a very special case. Who knows until AMOL is released.

 

Mashadar can destroy any size army of Shadowspawn...now it appears Fain can turn them into his slaves. Even an army of gholam would be annihlated against Fain. Fain is far too powerful.

[Terez]

Since they seemed rather unskilled at actually finding him, maybe we'll never know.

They are supposed to able to track down any prey, but Fain is a very special case.

I think his regular use of the Ways was probably throwing them off, even though Slayer seems to be able to use Tel'aran'rhiod to help transport them. Their birth in Tel'aran'rhiod likely has something to do with their special qualities, too.

[contempt]

Their birth in Tel'aran'rhiod likely has something to do with their special qualities, too.

It was said somewhere that they were born in TAR? I didn't know that. I thought RJ or BS said that was impossible (I'm referring to one of them saying Rand couldn't imagine himself a new hand & walk out with it).

 

I guess if DHs were brought there in the flesh & bred there that might be different. Still you spoke of it as if you knew it to be a fact so I assume one or both of them said that in an interview? Or did I just completely miss it in one of the books?

[Terez]

Their birth in Tel'aran'rhiod likely has something to do with their special qualities, too.

It was said somewhere that they were born in TAR?

Not explicitly. But then, RJ dislikes being too explicit. Slayer was hunting wolves in Tel'aran'rhiod in TSR.

 

"I've come awfully far afield from what I intended," Perrin muttered. He explained his need to find wolves in the Two Rivers, or the mountains above, explained about the ravens, and the Trollocs in the Ways.

 

When he was done, Hopper remained silent for a long time, his bushy tail held low and stiff. Finally... Avoid your old home, Young Bull. The image Perrin's mind called "home" was of the land marked by a wolfpack. There are no wolves there now. Those who were and did not flee are dead. Slayer walks the dream there.

 

The Dark Prophecy connects Slayer to Darkhounds.

 

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now

course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

 

He likes killing wolves.

 

It really was a pity. He had rather looked forward to killing his nephew and the wench. But if there was time to pass, hunting was always a pleasure. He became Isam. Isam liked killing wolves even more than Luc did.

 

And the quote by which Brandon indirectly confirmed that the wolves were hunting Fain has to do with a Moridin quote where he asserts that Slayer is hunting Fain. Since we had already put those clues together, Brandon thought that it had essentially been revealed that the pack was hunting Fain:

 

"Mesaana is absent again?" Moridin said instead of answering. "A pity. She should hear what I have to say." Plucking the rat from his shoulder by its tail, he watched the animal wave its legs futilely. Nothing except the rat seemed to exist for him. "Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important," he murmured. "This rat. Whether Isam succeeds in finding and killing that other vermin, Fain. A word whispered in the wrong ear, or not spoken to the right. A butterfly stirs its wings on a branch, and on the other side of the world a mountain collapses."

And in the next book, we see the huge Darkhound pack. Perrin assumes they're hunting Rand (since it's obvious they weren't after him), but the clues point to Fain.

 

Towers of Midnight Book Tour, Midnight release, Provo, UT 2 November 2010 - Tamyrlin reporting

 

Matt: What happened to the large packs of Darkhounds that were patrolling Altara back in Crossroads of Twilight?

Brandon: We already know, don't we?

Matt: Honest, can't remember.

Brandon: Well, I know, but I think we do know.

 

I didn't know that. I thought RJ or BS said that was impossible (I'm referring to one of them saying Rand couldn't imagine himself a new hand & walk out with it).

I think it has something to do with the fact that wolves have reflections in Tel'aran'rhiod (as do all non-domesticated animals). While they are incarnate, they are in both places at once. But anyway...

 

The fetid feel grew stronger, and a burned sulfur smell filled the air. Suddenly things moved, slinking away from the stairs like moonshadows, along the outside of the room. Slowly they resolved into three black dogs, darker than night and big as ponies. Eyes shining silver, they circled him warily. With the Power in him, he could hear their hearts beat, like deep drums pounding. He could not hear them breathe, though; perhaps they did not.

 

He channeled, and a sword was in his hands, its slightly curving, heron-marked blade seeming hammered out of fire. He had expected Myrddraal, or something even worse than the Eyeless, but for dogs, even Shadowspawn dogs, the sword would be enough. Whoever had sent them did not know him. Lan said he had very nearly reached the level of a blademaster, now, and the Warder was sparing enough with praise to make him think he might have passed onto that level already.

 

With snarls like bones being ground to dust, the dogs hurtled at him from three sides, faster than galloping horses.

 

He did not move until they were almost on him; then he flowed, one with the sword, move to move, as though dancing. In the blink of an eye the sword form called Whirlwind on the Mountain became The Wind Blows Over the Wall became Unfolding the Fan. Great black heads flew apart from black bodies, their dripping teeth, like burnished steel, still bared as they bounced across the floor. He was already stepping from the mosaic as the dark forms collapsed in twitching, bleeding heaps.

 

Laughing to himself, he let the sword go, though he held on to saidin, to the raging Power, the sweetness and the taint. Contempt slid along the outside of the Void. Dogs. Shadowspawn, certainly, but still just... Laughter died.

 

Slowly, the dead dogs and their heads were melting, settling into pools of liquid shadow that quivered slightly, as if alive. Their blood fanned across the floor, trembled. Suddenly the smaller pools flowed across the floor in viscous streams to merge with the larger, which oozed away from the mosaic to mound higher and higher, until the three huge black dogs stood there once more, slavering and snarling as they gathered massive haunches under them.

How else do you explain that? The properties of Tel'aran'rhiod might explain it rather well. Elyas explains how Darkhounds are normally created:

 

“Seven,” Elyas murmured in surprise. “Even an Aes Sedai would have to go some to do that. Most tales of Darkhounds are just people frightened by the dark.” Frowning at the tracks crossing the smoothed stone, he shook his head, and sadness entered his voice when he said, “They were wolves, once. The souls of wolves, anyway, caught and twisted by the Shadow. That was the core used to make Darkhounds, the Shadowbrothers. I think that’s why the wolves have to be at the Last Battle. Or maybe Darkhounds were made because wolves will be there, to fight them. The Pattern makes Sovarra lace look like a piece of string, sometimes. Anyway, it was a long time ago, during the Trolloc Wars as near as I can make out, and the War of the Shadow before that. Wolves have long memories. What a wolf knows is never really forgotten while other wolves remain alive. They avoid talking about Darkhounds, though, and they avoid Darkhounds, too. A hundred wolves could die trying to kill one Shadowbrother. Worse, if they fail, the Darkhound can eat the souls of those that aren’t quite dead yet, and in a year or so, there’d be a new pack of Shadowbrothers that didn’t remember ever being wolves. I hope they don’t remember, anyway.”

So, who knows how Slayer is making them...but these Darkhounds are definitely different from the normal ones.

[contempt]

How else do you explain that?

Calm down, I can't.

The properties of Tel'aran'rhiod might explain it rather well.

I agree, it might. But it's still just a theory... a good one, but not a fact. I can't think of any better way to explain them & I haven't heard anyone else try. So unless/until someone else does, yours is the best idea I've heard.

So, who knows how Slayer is making them...but these Darkhounds are definitely different from the normal ones.

Exactly, who knows? Until we do, I just think it might be misleading to say it as if it were definitely true. The way you just laid it out was quite convincing enough.

[Terez]

How else do you explain that?

Calm down, I can't.

Just because someone emphasizes a word doesn't mean they need to calm down.

 

The properties of Tel'aran'rhiod might explain it rather well.

I agree, it might. But it's still just a theory... a good one, but not a fact.

Who said anything differently?

[Entreri]

^That is the first thing that came to my mind as well, these Darkhounds are somehow connected to TAR. TAR connected heroes are imprevious to the OP + anything else thrown at them in the real world...although we have not seen balefire thrown at them.

 

Anyway, these Darkhounds are nearly invincible and if the entire pack is made out of the T-1000 variety, can Fain destroy/convert their souls if they are indeed connected to TAR...

[contempt]

Calm down, I can't.

Just because someone emphasizes a word doesn't mean they need to calm down.

Ok, I think we both used smileys to make sure the other knew we weren't trying to be hostile, I'm glad we both understand that.

Who said anything differently?

Well, you did.

Their birth in Tel'aran'rhiod likely has something to do with their special qualities, too.

That sounds a lot more like a statement of fact than it does a theory. That's why I asked in the first place where I missed when it was pointed out by RJ or BS, or if I just completely didn't remember reading it in one of the books when it was said there.

 

Edit:

^That is the first thing that came to my mind as well, these Darkhounds are somehow connected to TAR. TAR connected heroes are imprevious to the OP + anything else thrown at them in the real world...although we have not seen balefire thrown at them.

 

Anyway, these Darkhounds are nearly invincible and if the entire pack is made out of the T-1000 variety, can Fain destroy/convert their souls if they are indeed connected to TAR...

I have no idea, but I look forward to reading that showdown. TAR connected or not, "T-1000 variety" is a good name for them!

[Terez]

Who said anything differently?

Well, you did.

No, I didn't. I used the word 'likely' for a reason.

[Terez]

^That is the first thing that came to my mind as well, these Darkhounds are somehow connected to TAR. TAR connected heroes are imprevious to the OP + anything else thrown at them in the real world...although we have not seen balefire thrown at them.

 

Anyway, these Darkhounds are nearly invincible and if the entire pack is made out of the T-1000 variety, can Fain destroy/convert their souls if they are indeed connected to TAR...

Fain is the wild card. He's like to accidentally incapacitate the Dark One long enough for them to properly seal the Bore by killing Shaidar Haran. (I don't think that's likely to kill the Dark One.) But there's nothing to prevent him from dying after that in the process by trying to take control of the Darkhounds. Luckers thinks Mashadar is related to the 'unseen eyes' of Tel'aran'rhiod because of the unseen eyes in Shadar Logoth, and in Fal Dara. I think the unseen eyes in Shadar Logoth have to do with the way that Mashadar seems to absorb the people it kills (even the bodies disappear). Sammael can be reborn, but he couldn't be transmigrated by the Dark One because Mashadar corrupted his soul. Mordeth himself was consumed by Mashadar, and presumably that has something to do with why Fain now wields it like a weapon. (I also think it has to do with zombie Sammael and the stolen Shadowspawn.) Brandon said that Mordeth's body in Shadar Logoth was not an illusion, but in a way less than real, and Fain was somehow able to make an illusion of Torval and Gedwyn, both of whom were killed by his dagger.

[Finnssss22]

^That is the first thing that came to my mind as well, these Darkhounds are somehow connected to TAR. TAR connected heroes are imprevious to the OP + anything else thrown at them in the real world...although we have not seen balefire thrown at them.

 

Anyway, these Darkhounds are nearly invincible and if the entire pack is made out of the T-1000 variety, can Fain destroy/convert their souls if they are indeed connected to TAR...

Fain is the wild card. He's like to accidentally incapacitate the Dark One long enough for them to properly seal the Bore by killing Shaidar Haran. (I don't think that's likely to kill the Dark One.) But there's nothing to prevent him from dying after that in the process by trying to take control of the Darkhounds. Luckers thinks Mashadar is related to the 'unseen eyes' of Tel'aran'rhiod because of the unseen eyes in Shadar Logoth, and in Fal Dara. I think the unseen eyes in Shadar Logoth have to do with the way that Mashadar seems to absorb the people it kills (even the bodies disappear). Sammael can be reborn, but he couldn't be transmigrated by the Dark One because Mashadar corrupted his soul. Mordeth himself was consumed by Mashadar, and presumably that has something to do with why Fain now wields it like a weapon. (I also think it has to do with zombie Sammael and the stolen Shadowspawn.) Brandon said that Mordeth's body in Shadar Logoth was not an illusion, but in a way less than real, and Fain was somehow able to make an illusion of Torval and Gedwyn, both of whom were killed by his dagger.

 

 

 

Seems more probable that Mordeth created Mashadar through his various dark experiments to fight the Shadow.

Mash showed up after SL was decimated and that seems to imply it was a result of what Mordeth did.

It was born from their deaths, it wasn't the cause of their deaths (they killed each other) and if it didn't consume a single resident, it's doubtful it consumed Mordeth either.

[contempt]

^^I like that idea, there is a waygate in SL & they were not corrupted until well after the breaking. Maybe around when SL fell?

 

It would also explain why Fain/Mordeth can control Mashadar.

 

Edit: BTW Terez, well executed quick double-post. Touche.

[Terez]

Seems more probable that Mordeth created Mashadar through his various dark experiments to fight the Shadow.

Mash showed up after SL was decimated and that seems to imply it was a result of what Mordeth did.

It was born from their deaths, it wasn't the cause of their deaths (they killed each other) and if it didn't consume a single resident, it's doubtful it consumed Mordeth either.

Mashadar is just an extension of the evil that corrupted Aridhol in the first place. Lke Moiraine said:

 

How the armies of Manetheren came to avenge Caar and found the gates of Aridhol torn down, no living thing inside the walls, but something worse than death. No enemy had come to Aridhol but Aridhol. Suspicion and hate had given birth to something that fed on that which created it, something locked in the bedrock on which the city stood. Mashadar waits still, hungering....Mordeth alone was not consumed by Mashadar, but he was snared by it, and he, too, has waited within these walls through the long centuries.

He wasn't consumed by it to the point that he became just another pair of unseen eyes, but obviously it aided his survival all those years, so it's probably safe to say he developed a special relationship with it, despite the fact that it somehow limited him to the city. He depended on it for survival, needing another soul/body to steal to escape. Of course, Moiraine doesn't know anything about Mordeth's little experiments, nor do any of the other Aes Sedai apparently. They think it was born of hatred and suspicion, but obviously there was more going on than just that.

[contempt]

Yeah I was going to say "how could Moiraine know for sure" also. What I was putting fourth was that Mashadar & Machin Shin were one & the same (I meant to say Machin Shin instead of Mashadar in my earlier post). Some people being trapped in SL & some escaping through the waygate before being fully transformed, eventually growing much bigger than Mashadar because more people entered the Ways & got consumed there than entered SL.

[Terez]

Yeah I was going to say "how could Moiraine know for sure" also. What I was putting fourth was that Masadar & Machin Shin were one & the same (I meant to say Machin Shin instead of Mashadar in my earlier post).

RJ has refuted this.

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: In The Great Hunt, when Rand, Mat and Perrin are trying to enter the Ways, Machin Shin is waiting there for them. It seems like Padan Fain has it waiting there for them. Is Machin Shin in any way related to the evil of Shadar Logoth?

RJ: In some ways. Machin Shin is linked, or you might say drawn, to that. Its not a matter of linked, but more attracted by, in much the same ways as I spoke about the evils being attracted to one another due to opposite polarities. (Shadar Logoth and the taint.) In the same way there is an attraction because Machin Shin was created in effect by the taint. It grew out. You can see it as a fungus that was constructed with the wrong type of materials. If you think about it as that way you get a better idea about its true nature.

Machin Shin grew out of the taint. Mashadar grew out of Mordeth's experiments with things which were, according to Brandon, 'related to the Shadow'. However, Mashadar became what essentially amounts to the polar opposite of the Shadow's power, while Machin Shin remains to be aligned with the power of the Dark One.

 

Winter's Heart book tour 11 November 2000, San Jose - Brandon Downey reporting

 

Q: Is Machin Shin a result of the Dark One's taint on saidin being used in the creation of the Ways, or a result of some portion of the corruption of Shadar Logoth creeping into the Ways via the Waygate there? Or is it something completely orthogonal to both these powers, merely being a parasite that showed up once the place began to grow dim?

RJ: Machin Shin is a function of the Dark One's taint on the male side of the force.. er.. source. [we all chuckled, and he mentioned how much he'd been traveling. :)] The corruption on Shadar Logoth is a result of an evil specifically designed to combat the Dark One's taint. This is why Rand experiences a resonance while channeling in Shadar Logoth -- the Dark One's taint is reacting to the corruption of Shadar Logoth.

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Matt: Ok. You mentioned that Mordeth was a man that had "power". You are reported as saying that his power was that "which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow"…

Brandon: He was seeking things that were related to the Shadow. I think that that might be a misquote. He was looking into the power of the Shadow in order to defeat it, was his goal. He was looking into everything. He was looking into things that were not necessarily related to the Dark One as well. He was looking for everything that he could get.

Matt: Previous to him arriving to Aridhol?

Brandon: Yeah.

Matt: Before he went to the king and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for power?

Brandon: Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it. He originally was good. He did not…he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with, but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has…just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power…we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than…there are other evil things that are old in a similar way.

Matt: Is the assumption then that he found one of these?

Brandon: He did.

Matt: He found one or multiple?

Brandon: He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him, but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into…when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought, 'We are going to raise this kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow', but he was already by then corrupted.

Matt: Is this same corrupting influence what corrupts everyone through the dagger itself?

Brandon: Yeah. Through him, yes. And even through his presence.

[Finnssss22]

Seems more probable that Mordeth created Mashadar through his various dark experiments to fight the Shadow.

Mash showed up after SL was decimated and that seems to imply it was a result of what Mordeth did.

It was born from their deaths, it wasn't the cause of their deaths (they killed each other) and if it didn't consume a single resident, it's doubtful it consumed Mordeth either.

Mashadar is just an extension of the evil that corrupted Aridhol in the first place. Lke Moiraine said:

 

How the armies of Manetheren came to avenge Caar and found the gates of Aridhol torn down, no living thing inside the walls, but something worse than death. No enemy had come to Aridhol but Aridhol. Suspicion and hate had given birth to something that fed on that which created it, something locked in the bedrock on which the city stood. Mashadar waits still, hungering....Mordeth alone was not consumed by Mashadar, but he was snared by it, and he, too, has waited within these walls through the long centuries.

He wasn't consumed by it to the point that he became just another pair of unseen eyes, but obviously it aided his survival all those years, so it's probably safe to say he developed a special relationship with it, despite the fact that it somehow limited him to the city. He depended on it for survival, needing another soul/body to steal to escape. Of course, Moiraine doesn't know anything about Mordeth's little experiments, nor do any of the other Aes Sedai apparently. They think it was born of hatred and suspicion, but obviously there was more going on than just that.

 

 

There is no evidence that Mordeth was ever consumed in any way by Mash or ensnared by it. He WAS the creator of it. It was his idea, his experiments and his direct actions that created Mash. HE corrupted SL and Mash was created as a result of that corruption, not the other way around.

And it wasn't just any soul that would allow Mordeth to escape SL, RJ stated flat out that it was Fain's unique, DO directly touched soul that made it possible.

Going by what Mo said, or any other AS for that matter doesn't hold much water. They are, sadly, terribly out to lunch on not only what exactly happened in SL but also to the hows and whats of its evil.

Half of what Mo said about SL and its taint, is directly contradicted by RJ and he even goes so far as to point that out as well.

 

 

 

Isabel: When Mat had the dagger, Moiraine and Verin thought he would contaminate other people with the evil of Shadar Logoth, and they would contaminate other people. Fain does seem to be influencing without contaminating people. Is it as dangerous as it seems? Could also normal people become evil, and would they also contaminate other people?

 

Jordan: No. Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger. What Verin and Moiraine thought was incorrect; they were extending it too far. It is the one of things you may have noted in the books. Aes Sedai often believe they know more than they actually know. In other words, a lot of people believe they know more than they actually know. One of the themes I have running through the books is that whatever you think you know, some of it is almost certainly wrong, and it may even be the most crucial bit that is wrong. But even when you are aware that some of your information may be wrong you still have to go ahead and make a decision. You...you cannot afford the luxury of saying, well I don't know everything and some of what I know may be wrong, so I am not going to do anything, I am just going to sit here and wait and see if I can find out some more, because that only leads to sitting still forever.

 

and...

Question: Now that Shadar Logoth is gone, (cool way to get rid of it by the way), has the evil power in Padan Fain/Mordeth/the Ruby Dagger decreased any? Has it driven him even more insane? Or since the next book is called the Knife of Dreams, will all these questions be answered in it?

 

Robert Jordan: The evil power in Padan Fain has neither decreased nor increased, nor has that in the dagger. The corruption in him was partly caused by the taint on Shadar Logoth, but it didn't constitute a real connection to the city. Remember that it was because he was Padan Fain, the Hound of the Shadow, that he was able to leave Shadar Logoth in his new condition after he merged with/absorbed Mordeth. (By the way, any other artifacts that might be lying around from Shadar Logoth would have the same long-term corrupting effect as the dagger. Fortunately, or unfortunately, any such thing would need to be metal or stone. The wood and fabric had decayed. It wouldn't have been pleasant to get a splinter from, say, a chair from Shadar Logoth.)

 

 

This info combined with what you added from BS leaves very little room for any other way of it IMO, than what I put forth.

[Terez]

There is no evidence that Mordeth was ever consumed in any way by Mash or ensnared by it.

Aside from his own thoughts?

 

And it wasn't just any soul that would allow Mordeth to escape SL, RJ stated flat out that it was Fain's unique, DO directly touched soul that made it possible.

Nope. That's what allowed Fain to escape unscathed, not what allowed Mordeth to escape. He could have escaped just as easily on Mat, or Rand, if they'd escorted him to the walls. Since Fain is Fain, and he's been molded already by the Dark One, he retained control of his body and absorbed Mordeth into himself. Anyone else would likely have been forced to vacate the premises.

 

Going by what Mo said, or any other AS for that matter doesn't hold much water.

In some ways, yes, but they are still the best source we have on what happened. That's why we have to use our brains and weigh what they say against what RJ has said, what Brandon has said, and Fain's thoughts.