where did lews therin go?

[OptimusPrime]

Ok folks, forgive me for diving in on this late.

 

This is how I see it.

 

In Rands head, the memories came. I think he was supposed to get them, a perk of being the main Hero of the Horn spun out by the Wheel.

 

When the memories started coming, and the mannerisms with them, Rand didnt want to admit that they were himself. He WANTED it to mean he was mad, because to him that would mean he was not Lews Therin. So he chose madness, the voice was "born," and because Rand associated all that with the Taint, thats why it seems sometimes that it all stems from the Taint.

 

But Rand isnt always crazy when he remembers. So it cant be that simple.

 

The way I see it, is that as well as the wild mind syndrome, the taint exagerates whatever oddities are already there. Rand wanting to seperate himself from Lews Therin, that got a strong push from the Taint. And as mentioned before, because Rand associates Lewis with the Taint and madness, the three seem to go together. But ONLY because we see Rands thoughts, whether they are accurate or not.

 

Rand becomes connected to Moridin, starts getting sick. Channels the True Power, almost loses it, and then Veins of Gold.

 

Veins of Gold is still a mysery.

 

Rand overcame his demons in VoG, he no longer had a need to distance himself from his past self because he accepted it. But surely such a change in mentality should not suddenly start protecting him from the Taint, after all the damage it has supposedly done. Check THIS out for a crazy theory

 

What if Rand has been benefitting from Moridins protection from the Taint for a long time, and that is was just Rand himself that has been keeping the insanity going? To me this makes a lot more sense, while sticking within the guidelines of Brandons words. The Taint was partially responsible for the voice, but not entirely.

 

The Taint was a red herring.

[The Fallen One]

Ok folks, forgive me for diving in on this late.

 

This is how I see it.

 

In Rands head, the memories came. I think he was supposed to get them, a perk of being the main Hero of the Horn spun out by the Wheel.

 

When the memories started coming, and the mannerisms with them, Rand didnt want to admit that they were himself. He WANTED it to mean he was mad, because to him that would mean he was not Lews Therin. So he chose madness, the voice was "born," and because Rand associated all that with the Taint, thats why it seems sometimes that it all stems from the Taint.

 

But Rand isnt always crazy when he remembers. So it cant be that simple.

 

The way I see it, is that as well as the wild mind syndrome, the taint exagerates whatever oddities are already there. Rand wanting to seperate himself from Lews Therin, that got a strong push from the Taint. And as mentioned before, because Rand associates Lewis with the Taint and madness, the three seem to go together. But ONLY because we see Rands thoughts, whether they are accurate or not.

 

Rand becomes connected to Moridin, starts getting sick. Channels the True Power, almost loses it, and then Veins of Gold.

 

Veins of Gold is still a mysery.

 

Rand overcame his demons in VoG, he no longer had a need to distance himself from his past self because he accepted it. But surely such a change in mentality should not suddenly start protecting him from the Taint, after all the damage it has supposedly done. Check THIS out for a crazy theory

 

What if Rand has been benefitting from Moridins protection from the Taint for a long time, and that is was just Rand himself that has been keeping the insanity going? To me this makes a lot more sense, while sticking within the guidelines of Brandons words. The Taint was partially responsible for the voice, but not entirely.

 

The Taint was a red herring.

 

The problem with the memories just being a perk of being a Hero of the Horn is that Birgitte explains at one point that the heroes do not get to keep their memories during their lives. They only remember all of their lives during their time spent in TAR. Now, maybe it has something to do with being the Dragon specifically and the creator just gives the Dragon access to the memories of his past. However, keep in mind that the creator is not really much of a hands on deity and giving Rand access to LTs memories seems a little bit too hands on to me.

 

Do not have the books with me at the moment so I cannot quote Birgitte, but I am pretty sure it is explained in FoH.

[OptimusPrime]

Ok folks, forgive me for diving in on this late.

 

This is how I see it.

 

In Rands head, the memories came. I think he was supposed to get them, a perk of being the main Hero of the Horn spun out by the Wheel.

 

When the memories started coming, and the mannerisms with them, Rand didnt want to admit that they were himself. He WANTED it to mean he was mad, because to him that would mean he was not Lews Therin. So he chose madness, the voice was "born," and because Rand associated all that with the Taint, thats why it seems sometimes that it all stems from the Taint.

 

But Rand isnt always crazy when he remembers. So it cant be that simple.

 

The way I see it, is that as well as the wild mind syndrome, the taint exagerates whatever oddities are already there. Rand wanting to seperate himself from Lews Therin, that got a strong push from the Taint. And as mentioned before, because Rand associates Lewis with the Taint and madness, the three seem to go together. But ONLY because we see Rands thoughts, whether they are accurate or not.

 

Rand becomes connected to Moridin, starts getting sick. Channels the True Power, almost loses it, and then Veins of Gold.

 

Veins of Gold is still a mysery.

 

Rand overcame his demons in VoG, he no longer had a need to distance himself from his past self because he accepted it. But surely such a change in mentality should not suddenly start protecting him from the Taint, after all the damage it has supposedly done. Check THIS out for a crazy theory

 

What if Rand has been benefitting from Moridins protection from the Taint for a long time, and that is was just Rand himself that has been keeping the insanity going? To me this makes a lot more sense, while sticking within the guidelines of Brandons words. The Taint was partially responsible for the voice, but not entirely.

 

The Taint was a red herring.

 

The problem with the memories just being a perk of being a Hero of the Horn is that Birgitte explains at one point that the heroes do not get to keep their memories during their lives. They only remember all of their lives during their time spent in TAR. Now, maybe it has something to do with being the Dragon specifically and the creator just gives the Dragon access to the memories of his past. However, keep in mind that the creator is not really much of a hands on deity and giving Rand access to LTs memories seems a little bit too hands on to me.

 

Do not have the books with me at the moment so I cannot quote Birgitte, but I am pretty sure it is explained in FoH.

 

Yeah I know about the Birgitte thing. The thing that makes me put that to one side is that first of all Rand is no ordinary Hero, he is THE Hero. Second thing is, Rand didnt have the memories before he became Ta'veren, which actually coincides with Birgittes comments.

 

Rand is not a normal Hero. Comparing him to Birgitte, in my oppinion, is like comparing his Ta'verenism with Mat and Perrins. Rand is more than the norm on both accounts. In the books, Birgitte came back into the world in a fashion that broke the rules; this meant, while she WAS a Hero and thus had the memories, she lost them because she was not supposed to have them in the real world, unless summoned by the Horn.

 

My theory is that Rand has the memory perk as if he had been summoned by the Horn, except that as Dragon Reborn Senior Hero The Dogs Bollocks, he gets the memories in "real life" as a resource. But only when Dragon status was activated, and not before. The Wheels will, because it knew he would be born in a time when nobody could teach him but his enemies.

 

Personally I dont attribute the memories to the Creator favoring his Champion. I see it more as a thing of the Wheel giving him access because it would be necessary.

 

Although, of course, I am not saying that is the only option for the cause of memories aside from them being the actual madness. Somebody posted an interesting theory a while back, that the Eye of the World is what broke the barrier between his lives, and I liked that theory. I just see the Senior Hero of the Horn thing as a more likely option.

[The Fallen One]

Drekka,

 

There is no way to prove or disprove your theory, but I kinda think that if Rand has the memories because the Wheel just thinks he needs to have them then we are kind of getting in to Deus Ex Machina territory.

 

On another note, from what we know of LT, he never had memories from his past lives.

 

As far as the memories coming when he becomes Ta'Veren, seems to me like if the wheel wanted him to have LTs memories, they would have just popped in to his head when he found himself in need of them. Since Rand was Ta Veren in EotW and there were no memories to guide him as he channeled up until TSR, I think we can conclude that the memories have nothing to do with him being Ta'Veren. Since the memories begin in TSR, I think that it can be concluded that the memories have much more to do with the amount of the Taint that Rand has channeled. The reason being, Rand had no memories of LT prior to using Callandor.

 

I would like to read the Eye theory though, do you know where I can find it?

[Dagon Thyne]

Here is something interesting to add to the discussion.....

 

Did the Dragon have the memories of the Chosen of Light6 before him? It could be that the Chosen of Light simply has a link with his past life that normal people to not. And this is why Rand has the memories of LTT. Perhaps LTT went through the exact same thing.

[OptimusPrime]

Im afraid I dont know where the theory on the Eye is, I dont remember who posted it! It was a fair while ago I think, will try and find it.

 

I cant get the words right about the Taint causing the memories to come through. The timing for it is right, yeah. Its just Veins of Gold and the aftermath that bother me about that theory. Rand was channeling clean saidin on Dragonmount and got a whole chunk of non-Lews Therin memories. Why would that happen if it was the Taint that caused them? It seemed to me as if the Taint helped Rand seperate himself from the memories for a time. But when it was gone, how could he break through into lives even further back, without the catalyst of such memories, in a way that not only gets rid of the voice, but seems to mean he is suddenly protected?

 

Rand did not descend into terminal madness in VoG. Getting rid of a voice in your head is definitely a positive thing, and with that came a chunk of new memories. If the Taint caused one set of memories, surely it must have caused them all, but the books do not imply that, not in VoG anyway. Rand could not have weakened the barrier between lives further without the Taint at the same time as getting rid of a symptom of the Taint (the voice)

 

Its all so messed up! I really hope we get some real info into this in AMoL

[The Fallen One]

I am not sure Rand got new memories in VoG. That is something we will hopefully see in AMoL. I think what happened was more of Rand accepting his memories of Lews Therin and dropping the filter he created in his head to seperate LT from himself.

 

No proof on this, but I think that Rand had all of the memories by the Cleansing and he just did not have use of them because he filtered them through the voice of LT in his head.

[OptimusPrime]

No proof on this, but I think that Rand had all of the memories by the Cleansing and he just did not have use of them because he filtered them through the voice of LT in his head.

 

Yes, exactly. In other words he stopped not wanting to be Lews Therin because he "found a use" for the memories, found a way to forgive himself.

 

In doing that, the supposedly Taint induced voice vanished, and yet Rand was still insane but now protected by "the Light"... Thats the bit that doesnt make sense.