Who will kill Rand?

[Aiel Heart]

Oh yeah I'd forgotten about that Order... That is a good theory....

[Southpaw89]

Moiraine is more likely to kill Rand than Gawyn in my opinion. It's hinted that she might have to in tEotW and then she gets captured by the Finns and now has been released with who knows what knowledge. It'd be quite the shocker (for a lot of readers anyway) if Moiraine has no choice but to balefire Rand for the better of the world

[FarShainMael]

Moiraine is more likely to kill Rand than Gawyn in my opinion. It's hinted that she might have to in tEotW and then she gets captured by the Finns and now has been released with who knows what knowledge. It'd be quite the shocker (for a lot of readers anyway) if Moiraine has no choice but to balefire Rand for the better of the world

 

Two points:

 

1. Moiraine realised (EotW41) that the DO could, even then, reach a soul more easily dead than alive.

 

2. Moiraine does not know that balefire would prevent this (and why would she ask?). The only people who do are Rand himself and Moridin. He did show the weave for balefire to Narishma, but said only that it was the only thing that would kill a person permanently, not why this was so (TGS23).

"This is the weave we must use when fighting Forsaken.. If we kill them with anything else, they can be reborn."

 

In fact, that might suggest that if anyone's going to balefire Rand, it would be Narishma!

[Terez]

Moiraine is more likely to kill Rand than Gawyn in my opinion. It's hinted that she might have to in tEotW and then she gets captured by the Finns and now has been released with who knows what knowledge. It'd be quite the shocker (for a lot of readers anyway) if Moiraine has no choice but to balefire Rand for the better of the world

I think it's more likely to be both of them. The foreshadowing for Gawyn doing it is still there, and also the foreshadowing concerning the importance of swordfighting for Rand. I think Moiraine will save Rand from Gawyn's mistake - that is, almost killing him in a way that would give the Dark One access to his soul. So, I think Gawyn will mortally wound him a la Mordred, but that Moiraine will make the final kill. Then they have to make an illusion of his body to be burned on the pyre - hence the 'paper puppet' dream of Egwene's (Illusion can be detected by touch.)

 

@FSM - Again, I believe that Moiraine had already determined by TDR that balefire was the only way to off a Forsaken and prevent them from being transmigrated, but even if she hadn't determined that, it's likely she learned from the Aelfinn. As we already saw with Mat, you can ask them a question about something, and instead of giving you a simple yes/no answer, they'll tell you something else you need to know. It could be as simple as, 'What should I do to help Rand al'Thor?' (avoiding the question touching the Shadow, or trying anyway)

[FarShainMael]

@FSM - Again, I believe that Moiraine had already determined by TDR that balefire was the only way to off a Forsaken

 

What leads you to believe this?

 

Why didn't she simply balefire Lanfear?

 

and prevent them from being transmigrated, but even if she hadn't determined that, it's likely she learned from the Aelfinn. As we already saw with Mat, you can ask them a question about something, and instead of giving you a simple yes/no answer, they'll tell you something else you need to know. It could be as simple as, 'What should I do to help Rand al'Thor?' (avoiding the question touching the Shadow, or trying anyway)

 

But wouldn't an answer involving balefiring him to keep him from the Dark One do rather more than 'touch on' the Shadow, no matter how they tried to talk around it?

 

And where does Alivia helping him die, as Viewed by Min, come into all this?

[Southpaw89]

The Alivia thing has baffled me as well. She won't kill Rand as it says she's gonna help him die not actually kill him. More than likely she's gonna have a side role in maybe doing something that could lead to Rand dying without outright killing him. Idk though still on reread. Gonna keep eye out for any more clues

[FarShainMael]

Moiraine is more likely to kill Rand than Gawyn in my opinion. It's hinted that she might have to in tEotW and then she gets captured by the Finns and now has been released with who knows what knowledge. It'd be quite the shocker (for a lot of readers anyway) if Moiraine has no choice but to balefire Rand for the better of the world

I think it's more likely to be both of them. The foreshadowing for Gawyn doing it is still there, and also the foreshadowing concerning the importance of swordfighting for Rand. I think Moiraine will save Rand from Gawyn's mistake - that is, almost killing him in a way that would give the Dark One access to his soul. So, I think Gawyn will mortally wound him a la Mordred, but that Moiraine will make the final kill. Then they have to make an illusion of his body to be burned on the pyre - hence the 'paper puppet' dream of Egwene's (Illusion can be detected by touch.)

 

But why wouldn't Moiraine simply balefire Gawyn, and 'unkill' Rand?

 

Or even just Heal Rand?

[Terez]

Moiraine is more likely to kill Rand than Gawyn in my opinion. It's hinted that she might have to in tEotW and then she gets captured by the Finns and now has been released with who knows what knowledge. It'd be quite the shocker (for a lot of readers anyway) if Moiraine has no choice but to balefire Rand for the better of the world

I think it's more likely to be both of them. The foreshadowing for Gawyn doing it is still there, and also the foreshadowing concerning the importance of swordfighting for Rand. I think Moiraine will save Rand from Gawyn's mistake - that is, almost killing him in a way that would give the Dark One access to his soul. So, I think Gawyn will mortally wound him a la Mordred, but that Moiraine will make the final kill. Then they have to make an illusion of his body to be burned on the pyre - hence the 'paper puppet' dream of Egwene's (Illusion can be detected by touch.)

 

But why wouldn't Moiraine simply balefire Gawyn, and 'unkill' Rand?

Because Rand has to die.

[Aiel Heart]

He dies but also lives, so balefire being involved could work.....

[Terez]

He dies but also lives, so balefire being involved could work.....

Rand being resurrected via balefire would be pointless, since whatever purpose his death served would be undone. Rand being balefired himself is more likely, because that is what is needed to prevent the Dark One from grabbing his soul.

[FarShainMael]

Agree Rand has to die, and that Alivia will 'help him'. You haven't explained where she fits in to your scenario.

 

I don't see that either Moiraine or Gawyn need be involved directly in that. I don't see why Moiraine talking in EotW about killing Rand to keep him from the DO should be a foreshadowing but her later talk of it being too dangerous should not. And Gawyn no longer has any reason at all to kill Rand.

 

Rand being resurrected via balefire would be pointless, since whatever purpose his death served would be undone. Rand being balefired himself is more likely, because that is what is needed to prevent the Dark One from grabbing his soul.

 

Isn't there also a danger that whatever he does before this hypothetical balefiring would also be undone?

 

And in any case, would it be pointless? Mat was told he would die and live again, and he died in Caemlyn and was resurrected by balefire. His death wasn't a non-event for the 'finns. We don't know what effect it had, but there is a chance it may have disconnected him from the HoV, as has been suggested elsewhere.

 

What purpose do you think his death would serve? How would it work? Not saying it doesn't, just looking for details. After all, most of the prophecies talk about his blood being shed to save the world, but this does not necessarily equate to him dying:

 

...yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light.

 

The only place where his actual death is mentioned is this:

 

'Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die.'

 

All this says is he's going to die (twice), not that his death will be what brings salvation. This could as easily be just a consequence, not a purpose.

 

And you haven't told us why Moiraine didn't balefire Lanfear when she had the chance, if she knew what balefire could do.

[Aiel Heart]

*headdesk* duh.

[FarShainMael]

I agree. I'm going to withdraw from this exchange because it's not going anywhere, and we'll all know next year anyway.

[omaleyb]

OK, time I jump in. First, why would Gawyn kill Rand? His reason to hate Rand is gone. Also, I don't see him entering into a sword fight with a cripple as that would be dishonorable. Gawyn is no longer a candidate. Second, Moraine said she would kill him to keep him from the DO, but isn't it pretty clear and stated by Rand that we have passed the point where the Shadow can turn him. It is now a straight up fight (more or less). It seems pretty clear that it will not be Moraine or Gawyn.

Also, where does Alivia come into play. She must play a role, and I think she may help him fake his death. I am working on that theory.

[Terez]

Agree Rand has to die, and that Alivia will 'help him'. You haven't explained where she fits in to your scenario.

I have, actually - several times. I think her role will be a minor one.

 

I don't see that either Moiraine or Gawyn need be involved directly in that. I don't see why Moiraine talking in EotW about killing Rand to keep him from the DO should be a foreshadowing but her later talk of it being too dangerous should not.

Because the latter was also foreshadowing of the same thing. A problem to be resolved (and it was).

 

And Gawyn no longer has any reason at all to kill Rand.

Use your imagination.

 

Rand being resurrected via balefire would be pointless, since whatever purpose his death served would be undone. Rand being balefired himself is more likely, because that is what is needed to prevent the Dark One from grabbing his soul.

 

Isn't there also a danger that whatever he does before this hypothetical balefiring would also be undone?

Why is that a danger? Sure, theoretically it could really screw up the Pattern....but that depends on what actions are being undone, exactly.

 

And in any case, would it be pointless? Mat was told he would die and live again, and he died in Caemlyn and was resurrected by balefire. His death wasn't a non-event for the 'finns.

No one will deny it happened, but it didn't serve any purpose beyond fulfilling the prophecy. Presumably Rand's sacrifice has a greater reason than just that.

 

We don't know what effect it had, but there is a chance it may have disconnected him from the HoV, as has been suggested elsewhere.

A very slim chance. I doubt the link was undone.

 

What purpose do you think his death would serve?

Severing the link with Moridin. I've also said that several times.

 

How would it work? Not saying it doesn't, just looking for details. After all, most of the prophecies talk about his blood being shed to save the world, but this does not necessarily equate to him dying

And yet, the prophecies say he will die. Presumably there is a reason why he must.

 

The only place where his actual death is mentioned is this

There are four places it's mentioned.

 

1. Twice and twice.

2. 'To live you must die'

3. 'He who is dead, yet lives'

4. 'Alivia will help you die.'

 

All this says is he's going to die (twice), not that his death will be what brings salvation.

And yet, it would be a ridiculously stupid plot point if there were no reason for it. Mat, not so much. He's not the savior of the world.

 

And you haven't told us why Moiraine didn't balefire Lanfear when she had the chance, if she knew what balefire could do.

Because that wasn't one of the options she saw, presumably because Lanfear had the angreal. Moiraine knew she only had one choice.

[Terez]

OK, time I jump in. First, why would Gawyn kill Rand?

A few reasons have been suggested. For one, Rand is still linked with Moridin, so it's quite possible that he is more dangerous than he yet realizes, and that others will clue into this. Egwene has already commented on how she thinks that a part of Rand wants her to stop him from breaking the seals, knows it's the wrong thing to do. We know from several prophecies that Rand is supposed to break the world again, and we even have hints in Carridin's POV as to how that's going to happen. Egwene's Accepted test is a big clue. She wouldn't do it...but wouldn't Gawyn, if he thought there was a good reason? I doubt the Bloodrings are just a red herring.

 

I don't see him entering into a sword fight with a cripple as that would be dishonorable.

If the stakes were lower, it might make a difference.

 

"Betray? Gawyn Trakand, that word fits you as darkness fits the sun."

 

Second, Moraine said she would kill him to keep him from the DO, but isn't it pretty clear and stated by Rand that we have passed the point where the Shadow can turn him.

Since when does it matter what Rand thinks? The dream at the end of TOM makes it clear he's still linked to Moridin, and the fact that Rand can still access the True Power is another big clue. His brain is warded from the effects of the taint, and he's accepted Lews Therin's memories as his own (finally). He's sane now, but that doesn't make him Jesus.

 

It seems pretty clear that it will not be Moraine or Gawyn.

To you, maybe. But what is that worth?

 

Also, where does Alivia come into play. She must play a role, and I think she may help him fake his death. I am working on that theory.

Can't wait to see the 734th version of this one. I'll leave you with a quote from RJ:

 

I think I would like fans to walk away with the following. If the answer is easy, consider the possibility that you asked the wrong question.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Terez, why do you think that the link is dangerous for Rand and not for Moridin? I would think that of those two, Moridin is the one more prone to change sides (I'm thinking about the scene in TOM when Graendal notes to herelf that Elan Morin was not always 100% dark side, I don't remember the exact quote).

[Terez]

Terez, why do you think that the link is dangerous for Rand and not for Moridin?

I don't necessarily. Moridin might be fighting happy thoughts. It may be that the Dark One touching his mind directly gives him a sort of advantage, though (depending on your perspective). Also,

 

1. Rand has to die. We know that, so this might as well be the reason.

2. "I have won again, Lews Therin." I think that has to happen first. Then Rand comes back from the dead and wins.

[Terez]

Abruptly he felt his head grasped as though by a giant hand crushing his temples, felt himself being lifted, and the world blew apart in a thousand starbursts, each flash of light becoming an image that fled across his mind or spun and dwindled into the distance before he could more than barely grasp it. An impossible sky of striated clouds, red and yellow and black, racing as if driven by the mightiest wind the world had ever seen. A woman – a girl? – dressed in white receded into blackness and vanished as soon as she appeared. A raven stared him in the eye, knowing him, and was gone. An armored man in a brutal helm, shaped and painted and gilded like some monstrous, poisonous insect, raised a sword and plunged to one side, beyond his view. A horn, curled and golden, came hurtling out of the far distance. One piercing note it sounded as it flashed toward him, tugging his soul. At the last instant it flashed into a blinding, golden ring of light that passed through him, chilling him beyond death. A wolf leaped from the shadows of lost sight and ripped out his throat. He could not scream. The torrent went on, drowning him, burying him. He could barely remember who he was, or what he was. The skies rained fire, and the moon and stars fell; rivers ran in blood, and the dead walked; the earth split open and fountained molten rock...

That last bit in particular is interesting. And it's Rand who is supposed to break the world again.

[Red Hand Man]

OK, time I jump in. First, why would Gawyn kill Rand? His reason to hate Rand is gone. Also, I don't see him entering into a sword fight with a cripple as that would be dishonorable. Gawyn is no longer a candidate. Second, Moraine said she would kill him to keep him from the DO, but isn't it pretty clear and stated by Rand that we have passed the point where the Shadow can turn him. It is now a straight up fight (more or less). It seems pretty clear that it will not be Moraine or Gawyn.

Also, where does Alivia come into play. She must play a role, and I think she may help him fake his death. I am working on that theory.

 

Irrational people don't always become rational overnight. He can say things all he wants, but unless he's Compelled, then I wouldn't hang my hat on "he is no longer a candidate".

[Guest PiotrekS]

Thanks Terez, these are good reasons.

 

Although, If I understand correctly, you'd said that Rand had to die in truth, not in some figurative sense, in order to sever the link with Moridin, right? But I wonder if the link is not supposed to work for the Light, because its coming into being was a part of the Pattern as it was woven by the Wheel not yet touched too strongly by the DO and it was totally suprising for Moridin who does not understand the link's nature. So I think the Light will need the link for something and it will be more than just a liablity that has to be somehow removed.

 

The quote you provided is very, very interesting - will it all happen in AMoL? Or is it an amalgam of things that have already happened with those that are yet to pass or which are mere possibilities?

[OptimusPrime]

So I think the Light will need the link for something and it will be more than just a liablity that has to be somehow removed.

 

If I said that post-VoG Rand had Moridins protection from the taint would that be the kind of thing you mean?

[Guest PiotrekS]

So I think the Light will need the link for something and it will be more than just a liablity that has to be somehow removed.

 

If I said that post-VoG Rand had Moridins protection from the taint would that be the kind of thing you mean?

 

Good idea! But it seems Rand's protection is maybe too sweet and shiny to come from the DO. We've seen the "black cables" on the Forsaken, so I guess DO's protection would look differently, it wouldn't be this "lacing of pure Light". But I can't rule out your idea.

 

I've thought that maybe the link would help to bring Moridin to the Light side (there might be a reason why we're told much more about his motives for joining the DO than about other Forsaken's and why they are less simple and egotistical. Maybe he could be swayed if he could see the world from somebody else's perspective and see some meaning in it.

 

The other option was that if Moridin was to become DO's avatar somehow (in TOM, Graendal though he could communicate directly with the DO and even sounded like him), the link could help in sealing him, but I have no precise idea how that would look like...

[Terez]

Thanks Terez, these are good reasons.

 

Although, If I understand correctly, you'd said that Rand had to die in truth, not in some figurative sense, in order to sever the link with Moridin, right? But I wonder if the link is not supposed to work for the Light, because its coming into being was a part of the Pattern as it was woven by the Wheel not yet touched too strongly by the DO and it was totally suprising for Moridin who does not understand the link's nature.

On that last, I'm not so sure that's true. I think it's clear Moridin understands the link better than Rand does, but why would he be completely honest about it? But assuming he was honest about it, at the very least he's aware of it, and probably learning more every day. He apparently didn't realize he could get into Rand's dreams again until Rand got into his.

 

]So I think the Light will need the link for something and it will be more than just a liablity that has to be somehow removed.

I think the main purpose of the link is to force Rand to overcome its influence, and probably not just once. Which brings me to a point I was going to make earlier and forgot about:

 

Terez, why do you think that the link is dangerous for Rand and not for Moridin? I would think that of those two, Moridin is the one more prone to change sides (I'm thinking about the scene in TOM when Graendal notes to herelf that Elan Morin was not always 100% dark side, I don't remember the exact quote).

I posted about this on General the other day regarding some tweets I made.

 

I don't claim to know how the Moridin-Rand action is going to go in AMOL at all. It's something I'm still thinking about a lot, and I'm not sure we have enough foreshadowing to predict it in a detailed manner. However, those tweets came from the idea about how Rand will go to his death. Many think it's ridiculous that he will go to defend Caemlyn instead of carrying out with his plans to force the Peace at Merrilor, but I think it will come down to something like this:

 

"You go," Rand said. "Egwene —"

 

"You fool!" Ingtar snapped. "We have what we came for. The Horn of Valere. The hope of salvation. What can one girl count, even if you love her, alongside the Horn, and what it stands for?"

 

"The Dark One can have the Horn for all I care! What does finding the Horn count if I abandon Egwene to this? If I did that, the Horn couldn't save me. The Creator couldn't save me. I would damn myself."

 

Ingtar stared at him, his face unreadable. "You mean that exactly, don't you?"

 

The quote you provided is very, very interesting - will it all happen in AMoL? Or is it an amalgam of things that have already happened with those that are yet to pass or which are mere possibilities?

I think it will happen in AMOL, and it might well be another reason why Rand needs to be balefired. If not, then it will likely happen when Rand dies due to his link with the land.

 

Something interesting: first, my theory on Twice Dawns the Day, and second, the fact that one of RJ's favorite sff movies was The Day the Earth Stood Still.