multiple Dreamers among the Forsaken

[yoniy0]

Okay, @herid, you've made your point. It's safe to assume that the Aiel Dreamwalkers consider this dream-surfing a thing of Dreamwalkers and not Dreamers. It's also quite unlikely that they'd be wrong about something like this (I assume that if the Talents did manifest separately they'd sure know about it).

[Terez]

Okay, @herid, you've made your point. It's safe to assume that the Aiel Dreamwalkers consider this dream-surfing a thing of Dreamwalkers and not Dreamers. It's also quite unlikely that they'd be wrong about something like this (I assume that if the Talents did manifest separately they'd sure know about it).

I wouldn't be so sure at all, considering that there were only four Dreamwalkers among all the Aiel. Apparently they only know how to cultivate the skill in the most talented women. Also, Herid purposefully took his quote out of context:

 

Egwene said, "Have you two brainless flap-tongues become witless ninnies? If I ask you to keep something to yourselves, do you immediately tell the first person you meet? Did it never occur to you that you don't have to tell everyone everything? I thought you two were good at keeping secrets." Nynaeve's cheeks grew warmer; at least she could not possibly be as scarlet as Elayne. Egwene was not quite finished. "As for how I did it, I can't teach you. You have to be a Dreamwalker. If you can touch somebody's dreams with the ring, I don't know how. And I doubt you can with that other thing. Try to keep your mind on what you're doing. Salidar may be nothing like you expect. Now, I also have things to do tonight. At least try to keep your wits about you!" And she was gone so suddenly the last word almost seemed to come from empty air.

[yoniy0]

The thing is, we're dealing with two separate issues here. The first, whether dream-surfing's part of being a Dreamwalker or a Dreamer (and I don't think @herid's quote was out of context for that part). The second, your belief that Dreamwalking is a learned skill. Well actually, we know it's not; it's a Talent - something one's born with - but perhaps with training a person can come to mimic some of what a Dreamwalker does. Myself, I believe the only part of that a normal person can learn to do is manipulate tel'aran'rhiod, and even then you'll have to go there in the flesh or use a ter'angreal. I maintain that what little we saw of Demandred is evidence to that effect, and the fact that we know Moghedien entered the Dream differently (if she had a ter'angreal we've heard nothing of it) is evidence that she's a Dreamwalker. Of course, those two points could seem as contradictory if you don't accept my interpretation, but I think there's enough to suggest we ought to at least suspect Moghedien is a Dreamwalker.

[Terez]

The thing is, we're dealing with two separate issues here. The first, whether dream-surfing's part of being a Dreamwalker or a Dreamer (and I don't think @herid's quote was out of context for that part). The second, your belief that Dreamwalking is a learned skill. Well actually, we know it's not; it's a Talent, something one's born with - but perhaps with training a person can come to mimic some of what a Dreamwalker does. Myself, I believe the only part of that a normal person can learn to do is manipulate tel'aran'rhiod

That is what Dreamwalking is. When someone walks the Dream, they are in Tel'aran'rhiod. Invading others' dreams is something else altogether.

 

and even then you'll have to go there in the flesh or use a ter'angreal. I maintain that what little we saw of Demandred is evidence to that effect

Demandred's comment shows that the ter'angreal is used to train beginners, which does not suggest that they will always need the ter'angreal. I fail to see why you make so many further assumptions about his comment with no evidence.

 

But indeed, Moghedien probably has the Talent for it...but we know that because of what she can do in Tel'aran'rhiod, not because of how she enters.

[herid]

Okay, @herid, you've made your point. It's safe to assume that the Aiel Dreamwalkers consider this dream-surfing a thing of Dreamwalkers and not Dreamers. It's also quite unlikely that they'd be wrong about something like this (I assume that if the Talents did manifest separately they'd sure know about it).

I wouldn't be so sure at all, considering that there were only four Dreamwalkers among all the Aiel. Apparently they only know how to cultivate the skill in the most talented women. Also, Herid purposefully took his quote out of context:

It wasn't on purpose but I also don't see why the part that you bolded is relevant to the point I was making. As yoniy0 says there are two (actually three) separate issues here.

One is if the ability to enter the space bewteen TAR and reality and touch other peoples dreams there is a thing of Dreaming or of dreamwalking. The second is if entering TAR can be taught. This I'm not really sure on but I think it might be possible because of what Demandred implied and of what the Wise Ones did with Avi.

 

 

The third issue is if touching other people's dreams can possibly achieved using ter'angreal or just taught. I think that teaching people without the necessary Talent to touch other peoples dreams is unlikely. The Wise ones seem to think it's impossible. Whether or not it can be done with a ter'angreal is totally unclear.

 

But I am certain that entering the space between TAR and real world has to do with dreamwalking rather than dreaming. That's the only point I was trying to make. I gave several quotes supporting the notion. This is clearly what the Aiel dreamwalkers believe and what they taught to Egwene. There may only be 4 dreamwalkers among the Aiel at the moment but there was a long line of dremwalkers before them who passed on their teaching. If the talents of Dreaming and dreamwalking manifested themselves separately in the past (and they likely did over thousands of years) the Aiel would know of the differences. What they would not know anything about are dream ter'angreal and their possible uses for entering TAR or touching other people's dreams. So Egwene's ignorance on the matter is hardly surprising and the Aiel dreamwalkers would know no more that she does on the subject.

 

Egwene said, "Have you two brainless flap-tongues become witless ninnies? If I ask you to keep something to yourselves, do you immediately tell the first person you meet? Did it never occur to you that you don't have to tell everyone everything? I thought you two were good at keeping secrets." Nynaeve's cheeks grew warmer; at least she could not possibly be as scarlet as Elayne. Egwene was not quite finished. "As for how I did it, I can't teach you. You have to be a Dreamwalker. If you can touch somebody's dreams with the ring, I don't know how. And I doubt you can with that other thing. Try to keep your mind on what you're doing. Salidar may be nothing like you expect. Now, I also have things to do tonight. At least try to keep your wits about you!" And she was gone so suddenly the last word almost seemed to come from empty air.

[Terez]

Okay, @herid, you've made your point. It's safe to assume that the Aiel Dreamwalkers consider this dream-surfing a thing of Dreamwalkers and not Dreamers. It's also quite unlikely that they'd be wrong about something like this (I assume that if the Talents did manifest separately they'd sure know about it).

I wouldn't be so sure at all, considering that there were only four Dreamwalkers among all the Aiel. Apparently they only know how to cultivate the skill in the most talented women. Also, Herid purposefully took his quote out of context:

It wasn't on purpose

You cut her off mid-dialogue!

 

but I also don't see why the part that you bolded is relevant to the point I was making.

Because the quote only shows us that Egwene is ignorant of how to teach people to access dreams. You presented it as showing that only Dreamwalkers could access dreams...but the later parts of the quote call that very much into question.

[yoniy0]

Demandred's comment shows that the ter'angreal is used to train beginners, which does not suggest that they will always need the ter'angreal. I fail to see why you make so many further assumptions about his comment with no evidence.

 

But indeed, Moghedien probably has the Talent for it...but we know that because of what she can do in Tel'aran'rhiod, not because of how she enters.

I don't believe I was making a lot of assumptions. Fact: Demandred has used Gateways to enter TAR (we never saw him do otherwise, nor did he give the slightest hint that's it's not his practice to do so every time). Fact: Moghedien doesn't use Gateways. (Almost a) fact: Moghedien doesn't seem to use any ter'angreal for her night-time adventures. Fact: Demandred said that the ter'angreal requiring channeling are used to familiarize novices with TAR (but nothing regarding the use of stronger ter'angreal afterwards). Everything else is pure speculation.

 

Still, I believe the simplest conclusion is that novices (and that would be AS novices, back in the AoL) were trained with weak ter'angreal and once they knew what they were doing (and reached a certain level of strength required to make Gateways - which we know doesn't happen immediately) they started doing things Demandred's way - i.e. entering it in the flesh. You may have a different view of what is simple (or logical). That's fine. It doesn't make it any more well-founded than my conclusions, though, unless you put forward additional evidence.

 

PS

I think what Aviendha did with the help of the WO was to spy on Rand's dreams, not enter TAR, but I'm not convinced. Either way, we have no indication that she should've eventually been able to do so on her own; if fact, the fact that no one expected it of her at least hints that the WO accept that some people can never do it.

[herid]

 

 

but I also don't see why the part that you bolded is relevant to the point I was making.

Because the quote only shows us that Egwene is ignorant of how to teach people to access dreams. You presented it as showing that only Dreamwalkers could access dreams...but the later parts of the quote call that very much into question.

 

again, I was talking only about the ability to do so on your own without any ter'angreal. as I said, I don't know if this is possible or not with a ter'angreal. It might be but this is not something either Egwene or the Aiel dreamwalkers would know.

 

the part you bolded in the quote speaks only about touching dreams with the original dream ter'angreal.

"As for how I did it, I can't teach you. You have to be a Dreamwalker. If you can touch somebody's dreams with the ring, I don't know how. And I doubt you can with that other thing. Try to keep your mind on what you're doing. Salidar may be nothing like you expect. Now, I also have things to do tonight. At least try to keep your wits about you!" And she was gone so suddenly the last word almost seemed to come from empty air.

As I understand it, the next part "And I doubt you can with that other thing." speaks of the other dream ter'angreal Nyn and Elayne are using. I don't see anything here to suggest that Egwene may be unsure about the unassisted ability to touch other people's dreams being related to dreamwalking.

 

 

Besides, I gave other quotes to support my view, from much later in Egwene's apprenticeship. here is one more, this one by the Aiel dreamwalkers themselves.

“There is that.” Amys seemed to recover her humor suddenly; she gave Melaine a sidelong glance. “That is why no dreamwalker ever makes the mistake of trying to watch her husband’s dreams.” Melaine stared straight ahead, face darkening. “She does not make it twice anyway,” Amys added.

-LOC, CH 15

[Terez]

I give up. You guys are really going out of your way here to support your own interpretation. Matt's going to ask some pertinent questions this weekend.

[yoniy0]

Matt's going to ask some pertinent questions this weekend.

I was hoping you'll use your pull (Brandon even answers you more willingly than he does others on Twitter). Matt's questions are welcome. Do let us know what answers he gets, won't you?

[Cybertrolloc]

I give up. You guys are really going out of your way here to support your own interpretation. Matt's going to ask some pertinent questions this weekend.

The problem is that you're using words that are used in the series by different people of various knowledge in different ways. Try listening to what other people say and stop assuming that herid and yoniy0 are psychic.

 

Then try to figure out what Brandon meant with the term Dreamer lol.